KPB's Friendly Chat about Jacques Vallee, "The Control Loop" and other Pseudo-science

a reply to: mirageman

Beautifully said. You are indeed my favorite UFO poster.. as I don't post about UFOs.. I post about UAP's and control loops. Just some of which appear in the guise of "UFOs".

I would like to think, that if my "sentient, dark, cold, plasma hypothesis" were blown out of the water someday as being 100% ridiculous, that I'd not skip a beat and start collecting evidence for another hypothesis.

On the subject of perhaps ONE "real visitation", I must say that I'm fascinated by the ancient Romany people.. who were originally from India and who mixed with Asian people's later. I just keep thinking that some of this "Men in Black" stuff, if any of it isn't pure bunk, is in some way associated with this subculture. I know that sounds crazy. But it's a lead I've been following up for a while now.

Other than that, I think it HIGHLY POSSIBLE, that we may be "infested" with some sort of post hi-tech singularity nannite swarm, at least some of us, some of the time. I find it highly likely, that any honest to god 'biologically alien culture" that went though the 'singularity' would stop with the spaceship stuff, and would send out as you say, machine intelligences... the intelligences might be probes.. or it might also be THEM themselves.. they no longer need much in the way of bodies.

I see no meaningful difference between "high technology" and "magic".

So if what I'm seeing/experiencing/theorizing about is sentient dark, cold, plasma -- great. If it's just some super-tech nannites which have us in their grasp --- great.

What's important is to make progress on the limits of human knowledge, and this means we need to stop falling prey to the "mind control regimen" of little green men, in nuts and bolts "UFOs" as being the limit to our imagination.

Kev

Really cool thread!

Really love your woo beliefs, thanks for sharing them.
I also admire Gut's threads and work
I am familiar with some of JV's work, mostly the vera project stuff, and his previous work with ufos. But the link on the Pentacle memo was new to me, and very interesting. Thank you for sharing that too. I am sorta churning on the whole idea the gov was intent on simulating the whole ufo phenomenon just to observe what the effects of that phenomenon were? Sounds like project blue beam could be derived from this tech.

So I have a question, do you have similar beliefs to JV that the 'alien' presence is mostly is not entirely interdimensional? Sorry if I'm misunderstanding his theory/belief, but the 99.9% of universe is uninhabited by sentients seems to make sense.

It would be very logical why this human existence seems to have so many odd 'interdimensional' experiences that seem unanswerable. I have seen apparitions and have talked to what I believe was non-human intelligence. It was deceptive tho, all of it and it's why all I ever have is more questions.

I'm not really looking for profound answers, I just appreciate your time and sharing your ideas. They are much appreciated here

Jacques Vallee Interview

Q5 : Do governments (and especially the USA) hide information about Ufos on the public (according to you and your experience) ? There are two levels to that question: (1) governments (and not only the USA) keep some information they think most sensitive, especially reports which come from the military. It seems that since 1947 this policy has been viewed as legitimate, in the interest of populations and in the hope of discovering technological breakthroughs. (2) The most difficult question is to know if breakthroughs have actually taken place. To my mind, the phenomenon has probably resisted all analysis, classified or not. The issue of opening all the files is going to arise again but it’s not as simple to understand the Ufo phenomenon as to dismantle an MIG or to secretly copy the space shuttle.

When I talked to Dr. Vallee on this subject, he was very tight lipped, as might be expected. But what he says in this interview aligns with my impression.

I 100% agree that the Phenomenon does not wish to be understood "ahead of schedule". We don't set the schedule, "It" does. Now again, "It" may be a manifestation of our brains interacting with interesting Physics that we don't understand yet.

I don't want to go down the road of "demons" and "archons" and that sort of thing. It's a dead end.

I firmly believe, after 55 years of interacting with "the Phenomenon", that seeing "It" as either good or evil is just human nonsense. The laws of physics are neither good nor evil, and what we are interacting with seems to be extremely conversant with those laws of physics. I used to call the Phenomenon "the Sentient Laws of Physics", but I can't begin to back that up, even with pseudoscience. So I don't say that any longer.

But I'd say that we ARE in this "fish pond" here on Earth, and probably not entirely alone.. it would be good to learn who our neighbors really are, rather than getting caught up in self-generated nonsense about good and evil.

Kev

a reply to: KellyPrettyBear

I don't post about UFOs.. I post about UAP's and control loops. Just some of which appear in the guise of "UFOs". I would like to think, that if my "sentient, dark, cold, plasma hypothesis" were blown out of the water someday as being 100% ridiculous, that I'd not skip a beat and start collecting evidence for another hypothesis.

I would like to think that if someone blew that hypothesis out of the water you would accept it all as well Kev.

Because all UFOs (UAPs) are not necessarily explained by one theory.

a reply to: Aliquandro

Thanks for joining the conversation.

Well JV talks about the "Phenomenon" having multiple components - psychological, human unconsciousness/folklore and physical.

I myself see less "physical" per se, as all it takes to "materialize" something "non-material" would be one of two things:

1) To manipulate the Higgs field, and/or the Higgs Boson as the mediator of exchange.
2) To "enter our space/time" obliquely from a so-called higher dimension space (like the in the book "Flatand"
and leave obliquely when desired (to give the effect of appearing and dissapearing).

or both.

but my point is, that saying something is 'material'' or 'non-material' is starting to get boring..it's just a matter of manipulating fields; at least if you have the "understanding" and/or "technology".

So given that line of thinking.. the very concept "here" or from "there" might not matter. It's all a matter of perspective. I mean, where is "up" in space? There is no such thing.

Dr. Vallee and I discussed this a good bit.. as the seeming "physical" and "non-physical" at the same time, or nearly the same time IS rather a conundrum and should be taken as a huge clue.

Kev

originally posted by: mirageman
a reply to: KellyPrettyBear

I don't post about UFOs.. I post about UAP's and control loops. Just some of which appear in the guise of "UFOs". I would like to think, that if my "sentient, dark, cold, plasma hypothesis" were blown out of the water someday as being 100% ridiculous, that I'd not skip a beat and start collecting evidence for another hypothesis.

I would like to think that if someone blew that hypothesis out of the water you would accept it all as well Kev.

Because all UFOs (UAPs) are not necessarily explained by one theory.

Yes, absolutely. It's a big Universe.

If humans survive just a bit longer without a major collapse, we will be the Aliens that other have been waiting for.

It might be really slow stuff.. laser propelled sails and generational ships and other low tech stuff.. but we might just make it to another star system one day.

Ok, the final comments on the interview

Jacques Vallee Interview

Q6 : What advice would you give to the ufology community ? I don’t think I have personal advice to give. It is obvious that we won’t make real progress in an environment of petty squabbling. It would be best to avoid accusations that discourage researchers from working together. The phenomenon is accessible at a local level, so the possibility of field study and fast exchange of data is wide open. That would be more useful than speculating on inaccessible, hypothetical secrets in the drawers of governments.

We need to stop waiting for the "government" or other parties to do a "disclosure".

Most of them don't know more than JV in my opinion.

We probably haven't been visited by aliens in nuts and bolts craft and we need to get over it.

But there is something worth investigating, that currently is catching our imagination as IF it were that very thing.

We all need to work together on this worthy en devour, just like all the other things we should be working on together, such as keeping Earth Habitable if possible.

Now yes, apparently the government(s) are interested in weaponizing plasma.

But those are the kind of "secrets" they have; not anything that would benefit regular human beings.
That's my opinion anyway.

Ok, I won't address Q7, that's entirely personal to JV.

I must go.. but I'd be happy to discuss anything JV related.

Kev

a reply to: mirageman

If we truly want to solve this mystery we have to challenge our own beliefs with an open mind but a 'skeptical' eye.

Talking monkeys that only learned how to communicate with each other a few thousand years ago are going to need a lot more than a "skeptical eye" to even get an inkling of this phenomenon. From my explorations with the verboten subjects; it's much more than cognizance and rests more in the esoteric arts. Logic just aint gonna work.

a reply to: olaru12

Humans ARE a young species.

The most useful knowledge is always hard to come by, whether you call the knowledge acquisition method scientific or esoteric.

I imagine we will need both the rational and creative/intuitive systems and a lot of time to crack such deeply fundamental feedback loop systems as we are discussing.

Many of the greats in science had both toolsets.

Kev

originally posted by: KellyPrettyBear
a reply to: mirageman


On the subject of perhaps ONE "real visitation", I must say that I'm fascinated by the ancient Romany people.. who were originally from India and who mixed with Asian people's later. I just keep thinking that some of this "Men in Black" stuff, if any of it isn't pure bunk, is in some way associated with this subculture. I know that sounds crazy. But it's a lead I've been following up for a while now.


Kev

Hi KPB, I was wondering if you had more information about this you can share?

a reply to: KellyPrettyBear
If we ignore them will they go away?

a reply to: KellyPrettyBear
This may be weird to say... but I'd never had a single 'paranormal' experience in my life until my dearest friend showed me. He initially did not believe in them either but has had odd happenstances since high school.

He had instances with synchronicity, time distortions, bizarre coincidences, dreams that came true, "nearly a hundred" ufo sightings, et cetera. I would never have believed him but for the fact that he is a scholar like myself and one of the most trustworthy people I have met.

Well, I am a realist and while we have discussed things many times when drunk I never put much merit into it. One day last year he found out I had never experienced anything strange in my life and offered to show me. We went out very late at night and hiked a short distance up a mountain and sat and watched the sky and talked. He did not seem uneasy or skeptical that something would happen. At one point a dot of light appeared, like a star or a satellite except much brighter, and it moved across the sky, stopped, went in another direction, moved in ways typical aircraft cannot. It was somewhat entrancing. After perhaps 5 minutes or so it disappeared. I had a strange feeling that is hard to describe, not quite awe as it was not definitive, but strange. I felt almost certain that he had something to do with it but he is not the type to hoax something; nor could he have without some sort of aircraft.

I asked him what I just saw and he said "a light in the sky" which is literally what it was, and I suppose a mild attempt at humour too. His opinion in general is that they are military experiments, as the only time he saw one relatively close it had vague markings. But the uncertainty is palpable. Anyways, afterwards I had a weird connection with him, as in I started to agree with him and think like he did, and even sort of... read each others minds, in a way. It is hard to explain.

It could all be psychological phenomena, he was into some things with that before... it could be simply a natural thing where people who experience an event together synchronize, or however you would word that... and my shifting to his opinion could be out of respect and/or awe. I imagine it is how cult leaders mesmerize followers, so to speak. Except this case is not negative.

Anyway.

a reply to: SargonThrall

Glad to see this thread... and hope some musings from the edge can be unleashed... some pure speculation, supported by experience, of course.

And that time distortion, synchronicity, esp and mundane prophetic dreams are something, huh? "Feeding" that mindset/atmosphere can really destabilize... and framing it in language is a real toughie.

Whether it is a separate intelligence, nanocites from the singularity, energy critters or another level of our own consciousness is a fairly big question... if we even have something like our "own" consciousness, that is.

Causality has been moribund in my environs for awhile, despite recovering and doing a zombie shuffle on occasional "normal" days...

a reply to: primalfractal

I'm not "hiding anything on this subject", but I just have a few weird experiences I"m not ready to talk about associated with this group of people.

Thanks for your interest.

Kev

a reply to: dashen

The human psyche on a certain level, seems to NEED to create monsters, at least at this point of our evolution.

So the products of these needs won't be going away anytime soon, so we will be stuck with "gods", "angels", "demons" and other "bottom feeders" for a long time yet.

Their forms will keep changing however, as our imaginations change.

Kev

a reply to: SargonThrall

Sounds like a little bit of Conversion Disorder to me.

But that said, you have probably noticed something that I talk about all the time.

From my POV, certain people allow themselves to become infested with little neutral lifeforms,
of the sentient, dark, cold, plasma variety, and from then on, they "attract strangeness" and
affect others.

The truth is, from my POV, that humans co-evolved with such creatures, rather like stomach
bacteria, and we may all-but need them.. and they may exist in some form in all of us.

The jury is out on that, but I personally find it likely.

The people who "never experience anything weird" have never been around a person like your
friend, and/or have never "activated" (stirred up) their own internal "dark plasma" internal
flora/fauna.

It's not hard to stirr them up for a lot of people.. but it takes a certain personality type.. one
that is willing to "let go" of a piece of their personality and "let this stuff in consciously";

which I don't actually recommend if you don't know what you are doing, and maybe not
even then.

It seems to be both a very old ability (to bond with the symbiotes) as shaman have done
it since forever, and one that is continuing to evolve,

but nobody does it very well.

I'd say that in part, that "UFO Waves" are tied to waves of religious and mystical movements..

In my POV, it's the "little lives within us" which allow people to even see so-called
"high strangeness UFOs".

All quite hypothetical I know. But it's where my life has led me.

Thanks for sharing your story.

Kev

a reply to: Baddogma

Whether it is a separate intelligence, nanocites from the singularity, energy critters or another level of our own consciousness is a fairly big question... if we even have something like our "own" consciousness, that is.

That encapsulates it pretty well. It's hard to tell where the real boundaries are.

We humans tend to see things in term of objecs, not waves or process flows.

Until we can see things in such terms, we will be attempting to label things incorrectly.

And I don't see why multiple factors from that list might not be in effect.

I mean, why not nannites composed of dark matter and energy systems
or the like being at the root of this?

I can't think of one single reason why not.

When I had my "Black Triangle UFO" encounter, I either had a hallucination
/conversion disorder event, or I really DID have a bit of a conversation with
a "machine intelligence" aboard that craft. And it was lonely and wanted to
"talk to a shaman" as it had been "stuck" in the phenomenon for a long time.
Maybe "it" was yearning for it's pre-singularity days.

I can't say.

That "mystical visions" like of a Mckenna seems to 'see' "machine elves" might
be a huge clue..

Maybe there WERE "elves" here on this planet, but now they have gone through a
'singularity' event. Thus we now have lurking "machine elves".

Who knows.

Perhaps these "machine elves" are looking for our help.. they don't have the
answer either.. and that's why they are using our brains as computers?

Who knows.

The best that I can do, or any of us can do, is to accumulate "hints" and not to
"take things too far" except when making theoretical models.

That's the lesson that JV learned I'd say.

A wise man.

Kev

I'd like to keep the majority of this thread to be about Dr. Vallee and discussion
of his ideas, however this IS "chat", so I don't mind quite a bit of thread topic
drift, so long as it's related.

I'm thinking a lot about "post singularity machine elves" right now. Catchy, no?

In "Passport to Magonia" my favorite book of JV's, other than perhaps
"Messengers of Deception", the "faerie theory" gets a lot of discussion and it should..
modern UFO phenomena acts quite the same as old faerie tales. Only of course,
there is the massive confirmation bias about the ETH, so most people will NOT
discuss the whole truth of a high strangeness siting, and MUFON, etc. will not
post it---MUFON did "hide" more than 50% of my report to them.

It's this self-censorship that has been destroying modern "UFO" research.

But anyway, back to Post Singularity Machine Elves.. ;-)

In my theory, "coherent energy creatures" evolved from organic life on this
Earth. But it's really hard to fill in a lot of details past that point.

Over time, it's become obvious to me (subjective here), that these sentient
cold, dark plasma lifeforms (SCDPL) love to manipulate our raw emotions,
as that releases hormones which are capable of crossing the blood/brain
barrier and gives them access to our brains.

Now the adult form of life seems to have full access anyway.. perhaps
by direct access from "space/time" itself, from a tangential angle..

but apparently I'd say, that their "offspring" or "nascent" form in our
bodies can't access our brains directly.. and need us to worship
them, be afraid of them (either works equally well to give brain
access) or even to love them, if done with ardor.

But back to our brains.

If indeed these "critters" were once "pre-singularity" but are now
"post-singularity", well then they'd have needed to have invented
"AI".

But if they are "energy critters" how would they do that?

Well if they invented AI, by "stringing together all our brains"
and then interacting with "that", then that would be a form
of AI.

Then if they "linked with their AI creation", then they would
by definition be "post-singularity".

But what if they are "caught in the matrix" now.. with US
being the "matrix".

(that being our brains are the computer hardware, and our
'collective unconscious' would be the insane ramblings
that tortures them and us.

Then perhaps they have "buyers" remorse.

Some of their species would want to destroy the evil matrix
(Us) by urging us towards destructive technologies such as
Nukes (that will get a rise out of some ATS people) while
others of their species are trying other techniques---such
perhaps has helping us to stop creating "monsters of the id"
in THEIR matrix (our 7 billion brains).

I'd like to get to a point where I can understand the
Phenomenon's behavior.

Well that's enough wild speculation for this installment.

Kev

a reply to: KellyPrettyBear

I've not even had time to get to your first links yet. (Life and all that).
I am very interested in your experience with MUFON and which parts of your sighting they were uncomfortable about.
I've heard things along those lines before. I wonder how commonly this happens?
Do you think the subject matter of this thread would appeal to them or were they more of the "nuts n bolts" contingent?
Cheers.

a reply to: Tulpa

I have it On good authority that at least publicly they bury any hint of the IDH. And that was my experience with them.

I don't blame them---IDH sounds completely insane to most people.

Kev