Did Jesus Ever Really Intend For "Christianity"?

a reply to: ChesterJohn

Originally Posted By Metallicus:
There is no way that Christ intended for a religion to come from what he taught.

Originally Posted By ChesterJohn
Actually he said, "that Christ", hence showing his belief that there is more than one Christ.

Just stop it! You're a word twisting liar!

Originally Posted By ChesterJohn
hence showing his belief that there is more than one Christ.

Hence......his Christian faith, which he continually denies. Is that you Thomas?

a reply to: solongandgoodnight

I think many Christians (unlike myself)...think Jesus knew what was going to be in what would become the NEW Testament. There was a whole lot written...and tossed out...years after He spread the word of God.

Now Im saying...all these televangalists, ministers, preachers and Bible thumpers quote Jesus this, Jesus that, He meant this, He means that, He said this....etc. Well....

He never knew the New Testament, He never knew His preaching would be named after him...He was a Jew when he was born and died and rose from the dead.

When He preached in and out of the temple as a young boy and later as a man...the studies He did His whole entire life...was the 1st books of the old testament, Talmud and Torah and others. There was no Christianity, 1/2 the Bible as we know it today wasnt written yet, and He died an incredible Hebrew man of faith. Amen.

Yet...the Christians of today forget that. I would say...if one wants to attain the level of knowledge He had when alive...I would ask all "Christians" this. Have you completely studied, analyzed and critiqued the entire 1st books? No? Jesus based all of His teachings on them..and argued with the Rabbis about those HEBREW scriptures.

I think all Christians need to remember the teachings were Hebrew...from a fantastically spiritual Jewish man...who never read our Bible of today....and didnt know if fact WHAT would eventually be written about him...and how much would be saved, true or thrown completely out.


I upset a girl at work once when I mentioned Jesus drinking wine(alcohol) and she was stunned because her church denounced consuming alcohol. She called me a liar, I was wrong...until she got a funny look on her face as reality sunk in...the "water into wine"...the last supper and other instances...and that wine and beer were about the only things that were pure as opposed to the water not purified in those days...even children consuming it.

My point? Jesus may have had an idea a new religion would come of His teachings...but surely would not have been happy to have it named after Him, and not giving that glory to God the Father. And His 33 years of teaching and preaching..all based on the old testament. No Bible. No Christianity (yet), and certainly no new testament.

Now, Im done preaching. Jesus saves, is my Lord...and I've tried to help a few here along the way to make Him theirs too. But, if some don't? He loves you anyway.....

Mysterioustranger*
*Walking in the Light, and washed in the Blood"
Amen

originally posted by: AngryCymraeg
(Sigh)
You do realise that there is next to no evidence that anyone like Jesus even existed don't you? The Romans certainly don't mention him, so there's an excellent chance that he was a number of teachers who were then conflated together.

There is plenty of evidence. There are even records of his mother's parents. Records of what he did for a living. You have not looked at this a lot, I
take it.

His mother's parents were older and tried for a long time to have a child. They may have been in their 50s when Mary was born. Almost unheard of then, especially for the mother.

I have a minor in religious studies. The evidence is easily looked up.

a reply to: solongandgoodnight

Apparently yes, the bible records the following as his final command before he ascended, the rest is history........

Before he was taken up, working in the power of the Holy Spirit, Jesus instructed the apostles he had chosen. After his suffering, he showed them that he was alive with many convincing proofs. He appeared to them over a period of forty days, speaking to them about God’s kingdom. While they were eating together, he ordered them not to leave Jerusalem but to wait for what the Father had promised. He said, “This is what you heard from me: John baptized with water, but in only a few days you will be baptized with the Holy Spirit.”

As a result, those who had gathered together asked Jesus, “Lord, are you going to restore the kingdom to Israel now?”
Jesus replied, “It isn’t for you to know the times or seasons that the Father has set by his own authority. Rather, you will receive power when the Holy Spirit has come upon you, and you will be my witnesses in Jerusalem, in all Judea and Samaria, and to the end of the earth.”

After Jesus said these things, as they were watching, he was lifted up and a cloud took him out of their sight. While he was going away and as they were staring toward heaven, suddenly two men in white robes stood next to them. They said, “Galileans, why are you standing here, looking toward heaven? This Jesus, who was taken up from you into heaven, will come in the same way that you saw him go into heaven.” — Acts 1:1-11

a reply to: solongandgoodnight

He didn't live long enough to fully understand the complexity of what he was talking about and advocating. He died too young.

originally posted by: Rapha
He was intended to be the way back to Heaven. Only through Him can a person gain access to the paradise that is available in Heaven.

Otherwise, everyone who turns away from Him wants hell. Many people say that this world is hell. Hence reincarnation proves that they are correct.

A sinner who has turned away from Jesus is damned to be reborn in this hell, surrounded by the 4 Riders of the Apocalypse doing overtime everyday.

There is a time limit though while His door is open. When it is closed every person that dies will be reborn as a zombie.

Did you really say that ?

OK in that case the Jews don't believe in Jesus a the saviour, what happens to them ................ Zombie jews ?

I think if Jesus saw what organised religion has done to the masses he'd simply shake his head in disbelief, how many atrocities have been committed in his name ? I know if my belief system was taken as a religion and twisted into something similar I'd be mortified.

Cody

a reply to: LesMisanthrope

He didn't live long enough..........

Sorry to break it to your "Somber Highness", but Jesus Christ; born of a virgin, miracle man/god who rose from the dead, never lived a day on this Earth!

a reply to: solongandgoodnight

I agree totally!

I came to follow the teachings of Jesus after reading through every organized regions "bibles" , the Torarh, Quran, Kabbalh, etc. I came to know Him from the Nag Hammadi text, specifically, the gospel of Thomas. It is so absolutely beautiful to me. The Jesus I love had no interest in institutions or men being the middle man to commune with God. He taught that all men are the Sons of the Living Father and the kingdom of Heaven is indeed inside of you. The first 3 sections are so powerful in my opinion and tells you straight up, don't listen to the leaders:

1. And he said, "Whoever discovers the interpretation of these sayings will not taste death."

2. Jesus said, "Those who seek should not stop seeking until they find. When they find, they will be disturbed. When they are disturbed, they will marvel, and will reign over all. [And after they have reigned they will rest.]"

33. Jesus said, "If your leaders say to you, 'Look, the (Father's) kingdom is in the sky,' then the birds of the sky will precede you. If they say to you, 'It is in the sea,' then the fish will precede you. Rather, the (Father's) kingdom is within you and it is outside you.

When you know yourselves, then you will be known, and you will understand that you are children of the living Father. But if you do not know yourselves, then you live in poverty, and you are the poverty."

originally posted by: reldra

originally posted by: AngryCymraeg
(Sigh)
You do realise that there is next to no evidence that anyone like Jesus even existed don't you? The Romans certainly don't mention him, so there's an excellent chance that he was a number of teachers who were then conflated together.

There is plenty of evidence. There are even records of his mother's parents. Records of what he did for a living. You have not looked at this a lot, I
take it.

His mother's parents were older and tried for a long time to have a child. They may have been in their 50s when Mary was born. Almost unheard of then, especially for the mother.

I have a minor in religious studies. The evidence is easily looked up.

No, there's no evidence at all. There's a highly dodgy reference in Josephus that might well have been inserted centuries after the fact, along with something similar in Pliny. As for his parents, please enlighten us further - cites please. Lots of lovely verifiable, trustworthy cites.

a reply to: windword

Sorry to break it to your "Somber Highness", but Jesus Christ; born of a virgin, miracle man/god who rose from the dead, never lived a day on this Earth!

I'm speaking of the historical Jesus, not the undead one.

a reply to: LesMisanthrope

What "historical" Jesus? Perhaps one of the 19 Jesuses mentioned by Josephus?

If not for the Bible, Jesus Christ wouldn't even be a myth. There is no "historic" Jesus.

originally posted by: TerryMcGuire
a reply to: solongandgoodnight

I think he may have intended to revitalize the Hebrew religion.
From the Bible we can read that his mother Mary's cousin was Elizabeth who was the mother of John the Baptist and when Mary come to help a pregnant Elizabeth, the baby in her womb jumped and Elizabeth acknowledged that Mary was to be the mother of the messiah.
Then his birth. It is read of from the Bible that it was immaculate. There were stars leading the way for the wise men and all and all the stuff in the nativity which would have told her and Joseph of Jesus's importance.

Can we assume from all of these stories that the young Jesus was unaware of all of these things indicating his importance?
Then, of course John was going around with huge flocks attending his preaching. Jesus's cousin.

Also, not only was there the Jewish religion at that time but there were numerous other fundamentalist cults and societies that were looking for a messiah.

So Jesus, is doing miracles and healing the sick and raising people from the dead. Are we to assume from all of this that he did not think that he would be flocked to?

Then, didn't he say something about building a following on the rock which was Peter? And he did pick twelve to move the whole Jesus Project into the future.

No, I think he knew what was happening. How people tend to gravitate into religions and organize themselves into belief systems. And with all the portentous happenings surrounding his birth, and his ministry, I find it really hard to think that he did not intend to at least strengthen the existing religion of the Hebrews. And in all likelihood, if we attribute any level of intelligence to him at all, that he understood what would happen to his teachings in the future.

You're not taking in to account that a lot of his birth is very similar to religions before he came long. Don't lean too heavy on the bible for your only source of information.

a reply to: windword

What "historical" Jesus? Perhaps one of the 19 Jesuses mentioned by Josephus?

If not for the Bible, Jesus Christ wouldn't even be a myth. There is no "historic" Jesus.

Are you saying he was invented? That might be a little difficult to prove.

originally posted by: Sublimecraft
a reply to: solongandgoodnight

Apparently yes, the bible records the following as his final command before he ascended, the rest is history........

Before he was taken up, working in the power of the Holy Spirit, Jesus instructed the apostles he had chosen. After his suffering, he showed them that he was alive with many convincing proofs. He appeared to them over a period of forty days, speaking to them about God’s kingdom. While they were eating together, he ordered them not to leave Jerusalem but to wait for what the Father had promised. He said, “This is what you heard from me: John baptized with water, but in only a few days you will be baptized with the Holy Spirit.”

As a result, those who had gathered together asked Jesus, “Lord, are you going to restore the kingdom to Israel now?”
Jesus replied, “It isn’t for you to know the times or seasons that the Father has set by his own authority. Rather, you will receive power when the Holy Spirit has come upon you, and you will be my witnesses in Jerusalem, in all Judea and Samaria, and to the end of the earth.”

After Jesus said these things, as they were watching, he was lifted up and a cloud took him out of their sight. While he was going away and as they were staring toward heaven, suddenly two men in white robes stood next to them. They said, “Galileans, why are you standing here, looking toward heaven? This Jesus, who was taken up from you into heaven, will come in the same way that you saw him go into heaven.” — Acts 1:1-11

Yes, trust me I know what the bible says. However, in the OP I also stated that I strongly believe key things such as what you've mentioned were purposely added.

a reply to: AngryCymraeg

The whole thing about his mother's parents is an invention of the Catholic church. There is no mention of them biblically.

originally posted by: LesMisanthrope
a reply to: windword

What "historical" Jesus? Perhaps one of the 19 Jesuses mentioned by Josephus?

If not for the Bible, Jesus Christ wouldn't even be a myth. There is no "historic" Jesus.

Are you saying he was invented? That might be a little difficult to prove.

Was Hercules an invention?

a reply to: windword

Was Hercules an invention?

How should I know?

a reply to: solongandgoodnight

I have been thinking a lot as well and I believe the same thing. He didn't intend to create a religion, he just wanted to spread love, life, healthy living, caring thoughts.

What he was trying to spread was more like Buddhism.

I believe in what Jesus preached, however, the man-made hateful religion called Christianity is not was he preached.

originally posted by: LesMisanthrope
a reply to: windword

Was Hercules an invention?

How should I know?

Isn't there an "historical" Hercules?

a reply to: solongandgoodnight

I both agree and disagree.

Jesus was a Jew and His ministry was to the Jews. He taught against the corruption and extreme legalism that had come into the temple at that time. He intended His message to be a new covenant with them and then to extend to all the rest of the world from them.

However, He is who He said He was which is divine and a divine messenger. His advent fulfilled the prophecies even if the Jews reject that. They expected their messiah to be a conquering hero like David who would throw out the Romans, but a humble teacher and prophet with a much more precious gift is what they got.

The label of Christian was something tacked on to differentiate those who believed in His message from those who did not. It made them easier to persecute and separate out from the other Jews and later gentiles as the beliefs and early church spread. But it's important to note that all it takes is a gathering of believers to have a "church," not any defined doctrine or fancy dogma and that's according to Jesus Himself.

So I will agree that He wasn't intending any new religion, merely a cleaning house of an old one already established and the bringing in of more people to that faith through His teaching and belief.