"If God existed, how could he let such horrible things happen to innocent people?"

originally posted by: tkwasny
Have you seen the violence when 2 massive galaxies collide over billions of years? Trillions of entire races mercilessly torn apart, burned and crushed. Yet we whine when a couple million die on Earth in a war caused by ourselves.

I've often wondered how many "intelligent" species are wiped out by cosmic events, vs. by their own hands. But that's a subject for another thread...


More related to this thread, every religion's concept of God (or what they call Him) bothers me immensely. They all say that God knows everything in advance, but also say that we have free-will. It can't be both ways. At least, not from God's perspective.

originally posted by: windword
a reply to: burgerbuddy

Angels have free will also.

Hence Lucifer and the war.

Uhm, biblical citation please?

Because in the book of Job, Satan needed God's permission, and gained it in order to cause harm.

Isaiah 14:12-14King James Version (KJV) 12

How art thou fallen from heaven, O Lucifer, son of the morning! how art thou cut down to the ground, which didst weaken the nations! 13 For thou hast said in thine heart, I will ascend into heaven, I will exalt my throne above the stars of God: I will sit also upon the mount of the congregation, in the sides of the north: 14 I will ascend above the heights of the clouds; I will be like the most High.

Ezekiel 28:12-19New International Version (NIV) 12

“Son of man, take up a lament concerning the king of Tyre and say to him: ‘This is what the Sovereign Lord says: “‘You were the seal of perfection, full of wisdom and perfect in beauty. 13 You were in Eden, the garden of God; every precious stone adorned you: carnelian, chrysolite and emerald, topaz, onyx and jasper, lapis lazuli, turquoise and beryl.[a] Your settings and mountings were made of gold; on the day you were created they were prepared. 14 You were anointed as a guardian cherub, for so I ordained you. You were on the holy mount of God; you walked among the fiery stones. 15 You were blameless in your ways from the day you were created till wickedness was found in you. 16 Through your widespread trade you were filled with violence, and you sinned. So I drove you in disgrace from the mount of God, and I expelled you, guardian cherub, from among the fiery stones. 17 Your heart became proud on account of your beauty, and you corrupted your wisdom because of your splendor. So I threw you to the earth; I made a spectacle of you before kings. 18 By your many sins and dishonest trade you have desecrated your sanctuaries. So I made a fire come out from you, and it consumed you, and I reduced you to ashes on the ground in the sight of all who were watching. 19 All the nations who knew you are appalled at you; you have come to a horrible end and will be no more.’”

Why Does God Permit Suffering? It was not God who introduced suffering into the universe. It was Lucifer, who became Satan; the devil. It is for the sake of those who will inhabit the universe for all eternity that God allows Satan to demonstrate sufficiently what the true course of sin really is. But you ask, "Isn't it enough? Haven't we seen enough?" Let me ask you: "Has mankind learned their lesson? Is war obsolete? Has crime ceased?"

One of the sad facts of life is that some will never learn the lesson! Following in the footsteps of Satan himself, they will carry their rebellion against God to the bitter end. Only God knows when it will be safe to eliminate sin and those who perpetrate it from the universe without allowing cause for it to ever return again. Remember, sin can only enter the universe through the mind of a rational being. It is the result of the misuse of the freedom of choice. God's creatures will retain their free will, but none will ever choose rebellion against God again. The prophet Nahum says, "affiliation shall not rise up the second time." God will gain and hold the voluntary allegiance of His loyal children for all eternity. He will not do this through fear. He will do it through love. It will yet be proven that every act of God, even the destruction of the wicked, will be an act of love. One indication of God's love is the suffering that He Himself has endured through the entire great controversy begun by Lucifer's rebellion. Even with modern inventions like television, we see only a tiny portion of the suffering in the world. God sees it all, every second, every hour, night and day, without holidays or vacations! It is Satan who enjoys watching people suffer, and not because of his hatred for us.

Satan knows how much it hurts God to watch His children suffer, and God is the object of his hatred. To Satan, we are merely pawns in his game. To God, we are the objects of His supreme affections. Even the destruction of Satan can bring no joy to the heart of God. He remembers him as he once was, and as he could have been. The day is coming when peace, genuine peace, will reign throughout the entire universe. The Bible is the guide to how this peace will be established and how it will be maintained. When God's plan of restoration is completed, the effects of Lucifer's rebellion will be forever gone. The universe will be no better for it. God would have preferred that it never have had to happen. But the universe will be safe from the danger of it ever happening again.

"And I heard a great voice out of heaven saying, Behold, the tabernacle of God is with men, and he will dwell with them, and they shall be his people, and God himself shall be with them, and be their God. And God shall wipe away all tears from their eyes: and there shall be no more death, neither sorrow, nor crying, neither shall there be any more pain: for the former things are passed away." Revelation 21:3,4

mcdonaldroad.org...

There ya go.

Found you something to read.

a reply to: burgerbuddy

Wait, who the heck is Lucifer? Oh dear! Do you think that Lucifer and Satan are one in the same? Do you think that some fallen archangel incarnated as the King of Babylon and then again as the King of Tyre to continue some kind of heavenly angelic war?

Angels have free will also. Hence Lucifer and the war.

You've shown no citation of any war in Heaven? You've cited lamentations regarding two earthly rulers that enslaved the "Children of Israel".

As far as the Bible on angelic free will, I give you the Book of Job:

And the Lord said unto Satan, Hast thou considered my servant Job, that there is none like him in the earth, a perfect and an upright man, one that feareth God, and escheweth evil?

Then Satan answered the Lord, and said, Doth Job fear God for nought? Hast not thou made an hedge about him, and about his house, and about all that he hath on every side? thou hast blessed the work of his hands, and his substance is increased in the land?

But put forth thine hand now, and touch all that he hath, and he will curse thee to thy face.

And the Lord said unto Satan, Behold, all that he hath is in thy power; only upon himself put not forth thine hand. So Satan went forth from the presence of the Lord.

Satan needed "The Lord's" permission to harm Job. He had no free will to run around willy nilly attacking "The Lord's" children.

From your citation:

Why Does God Permit Suffering? It was not God who introduced suffering into the universe. It was Lucifer, who became Satan; the devil.

So, here we have the same old tired argument...."It's not God's fault!"

Which leads us back to the conclusion that God is not perfect, nor was "his" creation. And "His Will" can easily be defeated by his own enemies.

The moment that God said "It is not good", we see "God's" imperfection. The moment God said, "Thou shall not", "God" introduced sin and suffering.

a reply to: sekerofknowlege

So, how could God let an innocent baby with cancer be born into the world? Perhaps, the soul knows what it's doing before being incarnated into this world, and does it for a selfless reason to raise awareness of the situation (in this example, cancer) to increase his karma so he will ultimately transcend the human consciousness in future incarnations.

Or like Metallicus says in the second post of your thread

"We are here to learn from our experiences."

I would say from ours and others experiences.

Using your example, a child born into this world with cancer might not be a karmic balance for their own soul but maybe a test for one of the parents.

if there is a creator who created this reality, then there must be some sort destiny or path which leads to somewhere be it back to God or wherever.

Our paths are intertwined and we experience our own and others sufferings and defeats as much as we experience each other joys and triumphs.

We are here for each other, sometimes I believe we are put or come into certain circumstances to test either us or those around us who share or are touched by our own experiences.

My meaning to life is to experience. simple as that.

The Good, the bad, all just experiences for us to grow or move forth in our spiritual path where ever that might lead.

originally posted by: tkwasny
Have you seen the violence when 2 massive galaxies collide over billions of years? Trillions of entire races mercilessly torn apart, burned and crushed. Yet we whine when a couple million die on Earth in a war caused by ourselves.

Pics or it didn't happen.

a reply to: windword

How good would good be without evil? Not all that "good" i suppose.

And you are stuck on Job. It was a bet.

So you don't think Lucifer is the debbil?

You know there was a war and 1/3 of the angels were thrown off the edge of heaven, like in the pictures, right?

a reply to: burgerbuddy

You know there was a war and 1/3 of the angels were thrown off the edge of heaven, like in the pictures, right?

Its a Christian fairy tale, that I've heard, and that has no biblical basis.

I mean, come on! What kind of god is so bad that 1/3 of Heaven's population was so unhappy they waged a war against "Him" and 2/3 of his remaining loyals? Was it the cafeteria food? The hours? The benefits? The uniforms too uncomfortable, all that gold and rock?

And then....this "God" throws those rascal renegades to Earth, where he creates the Garden of Eden and Mankind, his most prize possession and allowed Satan to babysit Adam and Eve?

How good would good be without evil? Not all that "good" i suppose.

"God's" qaulity is measured according to it's evil counter part?

And you are stuck on Job. It was a bet.

Really? What was the wager?

I use Job because it's an example of the biblical god's capricious nature.

a reply to: windword

Stop hating on Christianity,

God: “I threw you to the earth” (Ezekiel 28:18)

Waaaay before Jesus or Paul

originally posted by: Butterfinger
a reply to: windword

Stop hating on Christianity,

God: “I threw you to the earth” (Ezekiel 28:18)

Waaaay before Jesus or Paul

Ezekiel 28
The word of the Lord came again unto me, saying, 2 Son of man, say unto the prince of Tyrus, Thus saith the Lord God; Because thine heart is lifted up, and thou hast said, I am a God, I sit in the seat of God, in the midst of the seas; yet thou art a man, and not God, though thou set thine heart as the heart of God:

Is Satan/Lucifer a man, a man that is long dead?

Stop hating on Judaism!

a reply to: windword

Nice! Given enough reason I'll turn on Judaism too, but so far no go.

I'm not sure of your quote, its a prophecy against the king of Tyre. I didnt see anything about 'ol Beez there?

a reply to: windword

I went googling on that Ez. 28 and I see your position.

I really think that the King's supposed symbolism as Satan is shaky. continue on and it gets specific about riches hes collected and how God will set nations against him and destroy him.

He refers to what we are led to believe is Satan(simultaneously referring to the King) as "far-covering cherub" hardly a human title when used by God.

Some argue that the King was possessed by Satan, thereby God addressing them both in turn.

Sauce:
Verse 28 discussion

However, some of the descriptions in Ezekiel 28:11–19 go beyond any mere human king. In no sense could an earthly king claim to be “in Eden” or to be “the anointed cherub who covers” or to be “on the holy mountain of God.” Therefore, most Bible interpreters believe that Ezekiel 28:11–19 is a dual prophecy, comparing the pride of the king of Tyre to the pride of Satan. Some propose that the king of Tyre was actually possessed by Satan, making the link between the two even more powerful and applicable.

a reply to: Butterfinger

Okay.

Still, it doesn't say anything about a war.

I didnt see anything about 'ol Beez there?

Who's "ol Beez ?

Is it God's fault or ours? Why do WE act so "helpless", then blame God? God didn't legalize abortion, gay marriage, guns, etc, etc.

It's OUR FAULT, for allowing 1% to rule us!

a reply to: windword

I'll research the War, in the OT. Off hand, I cant think of any specific location. I'm at work so what research Ive done today is about my limit!

You know, "'ol Beez" Beelzebub, Lucifer, The Lord of Darkness, MC Triple 6, my mother in-law, etc.

The universe was set in motion and it will continue on its course according to natural laws. People often turn from the idea of God because of their weak God concept. I personally think God and its servants are primarily concerned with our spiritual journey, and not so much with our mortal one. Every man, women and religion has it wrong, and so do I. The gap between the being that comprises the sum total of all reality and our mortal minds are so incomprehensible it is quite futile to compare the two. In our attempt to rationalize the origin of existence and find comfort in the idea of an afterlife, we have created god in our image, as though it has human characteristics, passions, emotions and motivations. Tragedy happens and people often blame god, or lose faith. Rather than admit that their concept of god is wrong, that they are wrong, everything their books have told them are wrong, they would rather blame god or flat out deny its existence. The universe is the body of god and the laws of nature are God's laws. The anthropomorphism of God has done more harm than good, leading people to believe is falsehoods and have expectations that are simply not accurate.

a reply to: JuJuBee

And how has gay marriage caused a negative impact on society? How is that a bad thing at all? Are people being killed because of gay marriage?

originally posted by: windword
a reply to: burgerbuddy

You know there was a war and 1/3 of the angels were thrown off the edge of heaven, like in the pictures, right?

Its a Christian fairy tale, that I've heard, and that has no biblical basis.

I mean, come on! What kind of god is so bad that 1/3 of Heaven's population was so unhappy they waged a war against "Him" and 2/3 of his remaining loyals? Was it the cafeteria food? The hours? The benefits? The uniforms too uncomfortable, all that gold and rock?

And then....this "God" throws those rascal renegades to Earth, where he creates the Garden of Eden and Mankind, his most prize possession and allowed Satan to babysit Adam and Eve?

How good would good be without evil? Not all that "good" i suppose.

"God's" qaulity is measured according to it's evil counter part?

And you are stuck on Job. It was a bet.

Really? What was the wager?

I use Job because it's an example of the biblical god's capricious nature.

As Pelosi says, "you'll have to pass (away) to find out"

Job would not end up turning away from God, was the bet. Btw, Job got it all back and more.

You don't know that simple biblical fact? Makes me doubt any knowledge you claim to have about the bible.

originally posted by: Joecanada11
a reply to: JuJuBee

And how has gay marriage caused a negative impact on society? How is that a bad thing at all? Are people being killed because of gay marriage?

Their biz and reputations are being killed.

a reply to: burgerbuddy

Whose biz? And reputations ? Those that discriminate ? Good I'm glad. Maybe they'll learn their lesson.

a reply to: burgerbuddy

Btw, Job got it all back and more.

Really? If your wife(s) and children were all brutally killed, could they be replaced? THINK MAN!

Job would not end up turning away from God, was the bet.

You don't know that simple biblical fact? Makes me doubt any knowledge you claim to have about the bible.

But, what was the wager? No wager, no loss!

The fact that you didn't know that Satan had to ask God's permission, makes me think that you actually know very little of the Bible, especially, your Old Testament.