Balaam's Fourth Oracle, the War Scroll and the sons of Seth

Numbers 24:17 NRSV

I see him, but not now;
I behold him, but not near----
a star shall come out of Jacob,
and a scepter shall rise out of Israel;
it shall crush the borderlands of Moab,
and the territory of all the Shethites.

The War Scroll 1QM of the Dead Sea Scrolls Col.11: 7 repeats the oracle with the variation sons of Sheth.

Balaam is an enigma and the prophet of this oracle. Although seen as wicked for engineering the Israelites descent into debauchery, angering God and costing them dearly, he is acknowledged as one of 7 Goyim prophets, along with his father, Job and Job's four friends by Judaism.

The Shethites were a Moabite tribe in the Old Testament oracle.

But in the War Scroll and possibly Numbers the sons of Sheth or Shethites must be named after the Sheth or Seth of Genesis, son of Adam. There has always been a legend of the sons of Seth recording the wisdom of the world on two objects, one stone and one brick, for the survivors of the flood and their descendants. It was recorded by Josephus.

The sons of Seth in the War Scroll no doubt referred to the Sethian Egyptian school that became what the church fathers called Gnostics.

The Zaddikim of the War Scrolls were defeated by Rome. The Sethian "Gnostics" suffered the same fate much later.


But who were the Moabite Sethians? Anyone?

Just a thought, not going to look it up, but I believe Ruth and Naomi married into the Moab tribe, (Ruth and Boaz I think) and I know Ruth was a Israelite so perhaps she introduced the Seth line into the Moab tribe?

I spent many years studying the Bible. but Ive moved on to other things over the past 20 years so I could have my stories mixed up, and Im way too lazy to look it up.

a reply to: misskat1

That sounds like good info to me. I'll look into it thanks.

a reply to: misskat1

Something about Ruth is special too. I heard that Rothschild really means Ruth's child.

Boaz is one of the pillars of Solomon's temple.

a reply to: CapstonePendulum

I know she was in the "Royal" Lineage of the House of David and therefore a great x a lot grandmother to Jesus.

nice poem

originally posted by: misskat1
Just a thought, not going to look it up, but I believe Ruth and Naomi married into the Moab tribe, (Ruth and Boaz I think) and I know Ruth was a Israelite so perhaps she introduced the Seth line into the Moab tribe?

I spent many years studying the Bible. but Ive moved on to other things over the past 20 years so I could have my stories mixed up, and Im way too lazy to look it up.

Naomi was an Israelite and Ruth was a Moabite. Ruth is in the lineage of Jesus Christ.

Ru 1:1 ¶ Now it came to pass in the days when the judges ruled, that there was a famine in the land. And a certain man of Bethlehemjudah went to sojourn in the country of Moab, he, and his wife, and his two sons.
2 And the name of the man was Elimelech, and the name of his wife Naomi, and the name of his two sons Mahlon and Chilion, Ephrathites of Bethlehemjudah. And they came into the country of Moab, and continued there.
3 And Elimelech Naomi's husband died; and she was left, and her two sons.
4 And they took them wives of the women of Moab; the name of the one was Orpah, and the name of the other Ruth: and they dwelled there about ten years.
5 And Mahlon and Chilion died also both of them; and the woman was left of her two sons and her husband.
6 ¶ Then she arose with her daughters in law, that she might return from the country of Moab: for she had heard in the country of Moab how that the LORD had visited his people in giving them bread.
7 Wherefore she went forth out of the place where she was, and her two daughters in law with her; and they went on the way to return unto the land of Judah.
8 And Naomi said unto her two daughters in law, Go, return each to her mother's house: the LORD deal kindly with you, as ye have dealt with the dead, and with me.

a reply to: ChesterJohn

Thanks, I knew it was something like that. Just didnt want to look up old info that is currently not important to my life. Hopefully the info will at least help the OP find what he is looking for.

a reply to: misskat1

So I guess that makes Jesus a Moabite.

It was an honored tradition for Israelites to marry with other tribes until they came under Persian subjectivity. A reform was made and it was due to Persian law, I believe. This is about the time certain Israelites flirted with the idea of a devil briefly. In the end it was declared good and evil are Yahweh's doing.

a reply to: misskat1

But I am just going to continue with my theory that the Shethites were the sons of Seth in the way Israelites were sons of Shem or Shemites.

This no doubt pissed the Jews off to no end.

a reply to: CapstonePendulumPlease, try and know the Bible at least, if you are going to discuss it. Because you enter in with private opinions that do not bear Biblical truth.

Israelite Marriage with people outside the 12 tribes was not an honor but disobedience. this according to the Law of Moses many many years before the Persian captivity.

For all the people of Israel

Deuteronomy 7:3 Neither shalt thou make marriages with them; thy daughter thou shalt not give unto his son, nor his daughter shalt thou take unto thy son.

For the priests

Leviticus 21:14 A widow, or a divorced woman, or profane, or an harlot, these shall he not take: but he shall take a virgin of his own people to wife.

a reply to: CapstonePendulumThere is no such people as the Shethites or the Sethites named in scriptures.

a reply to: CapstonePendulum

a reply to: misskat1 So I guess that makes Jesus a Moabite. It was an honored tradition for Israelites to marry with other tribes until they came under Persian subjectivity. A reform was made and it was due to Persian law, I believe. This is about the time certain Israelites flirted with the idea of a devil briefly. In the end it was declared good and evil are Yahweh's doing.

No-- Jesus was conceived by the Holy Spirit who is (God) the Most High El. That makes Jesus the begotten Son of EL. A Moabite was pro created from the created Adam. Substance change is the belief of Christianity.

In nationalized Hebrew and Rabbinic Judaic structure, a convert was still an outsider and not given a tribal recognition. In the forty years of wondering they were camped outside the main body of tribes and not privileged as you have said. Their salvation was accepted but the blood was not. Jew and Gentile were united under the teachings of Jesus but even today is hard pressed to be acceptable.

A concept of a devil or a Satan is by far an antediluvian concept. Adam lost his garden because of that very same error.

a reply to: Seede

Correct, Jesus was conceived of the Holy Ghost, whom is the son of GOD, but his step dad Joseph is where the lineage is applied to Christ. Christ actually had no blood from the Moabite or from Rachab as both were foreign women that were wived by Israelites and are part of the lineage of King David as Jesus was a son of David.

Just to clarify the error of the OP that Jesus is a Moabite.

a reply to: ChesterJohn

The OP made no such error as he does not believe in virgin births. He does however believe that it is irrelevant anyhow as Moabites are descendants of Lot and Semitic.

But if it is important to list both genealogies I bet you can't say the TRUE reason why that was done. If his paternal ancestry is not of this earth, why attribute it to Joseph?

That makes someone wrong. Or lying. Pick one.


If you are so desperate to feel like a bible scholar that you need to make up stuff, like that it was disobedience to marry a non-Israelite(not true, many instances of marriage between Israelites and non in the bible, only certain tribes were forbidden), and deny the existence of the word Shethites in Balaam's fourth oracle, you are not someone I have any interest in talking too.

Incorrect yet shouting "Incorrect"... what do they call that... oh yeah, hypocritical.

originally posted by: Seede
a reply to: CapstonePendulum

a reply to: misskat1 So I guess that makes Jesus a Moabite. It was an honored tradition for Israelites to marry with other tribes until they came under Persian subjectivity. A reform was made and it was due to Persian law, I believe. This is about the time certain Israelites flirted with the idea of a devil briefly. In the end it was declared good and evil are Yahweh's doing.

No-- Jesus was conceived by the Holy Spirit who is (God) the Most High El. That makes Jesus the begotten Son of EL. A Moabite was pro created from the created Adam. Substance change is the belief of Christianity.

In nationalized Hebrew and Rabbinic Judaic structure, a convert was still an outsider and not given a tribal recognition. In the forty years of wondering they were camped outside the main body of tribes and not privileged as you have said. Their salvation was accepted but the blood was not. Jew and Gentile were united under the teachings of Jesus but even today is hard pressed to be acceptable.

A concept of a devil or a Satan is by far an antediluvian concept. Adam lost his garden because of that very same error.

First, the serpent of Genesis has never been Satan.

Satan is actually just The Adversary of man and works FOR Yahweh, not against. So he isn't a devil in Judaism today and he never was .

The fringe Israelite sects that adopted a devil called him Belial and not Satan.

Satan as the devil is a Christian invention.

a reply to: ChesterJohn

Really, did you not read my OP? because Balaam's fourth oracle DOES mention the Shethites, I didn't just make it up.

Maybe you have a bad translation.

a reply to: ChesterJohn

First, only certain tribes were forbidden to marry.

Moses married an Ethiopian. And a Midianite priests daughter. Many Israelites married wives from outside of the 12 tribes.

Judah married a Canaanite
Joseph an Egyptian.

The list of Kings of Israel, have a look at it. They married foreign wives habitually.


You might want to know the bible yourself before you accuse others of not knowing it.

You might want to look into which tribes were forbidden to marry and which were not.

a reply to: CapstonePendulum

So Balaam's fourth oracle insn't true. I can read all about Balaam in the Bible and it says nothing.

The Bible is truth.

No ALL the tribes were forbidden to take wives of the nations around them. It is their disobedience that they take wives of other nations.

Moses marriage was before the law was given and later she was divorced.

yeah we know who you are.

originally posted by: ChesterJohn
a reply to: CapstonePendulum

So Balaam's fourth oracle insn't true. I can read all about Balaam in the Bible and it says nothing.

The Bible is truth.

No ALL the tribes were forbidden to take wives of the nations around them. It is their disobedience that they take wives of other nations.

Moses marriage was before the law was given and later she was divorced.

yeah we know who you are.

So I really have to repeat this?


Just about every King of Israel in the Bible had a foreign wife.

Joseph married an Egyptian
Judah a Canaanite

I could come up with names but you are not worth the effort as you obviously just say anything and don't care about the truth.

As you can clearly see, NEITHER of Moses' wives were Israelite.

Case closed.