Transgender Misconceptions - She Changed My View!

a reply to: network dude

What woman?

originally posted by: Deaf Alien
a reply to: network dude

What woman?

In the OP, there was a picture. Several people here have posted pictures of beautiful women who were transgender to make their point. I don't seem to get it. Nobody on Earth would know that these women used to be men. So unless they just want attention, if they truly did just want to live their lives as women, then if they shut up, that's exactly how their lives would be. Or is that not the norm? (if it's not, then those pushing those pictures have been woefully dishonest)

originally posted by: network dude
. . . if they truly did just want to live their lives as women, then if they shut up, that's exactly how their lives would be.

Like the transgender teenage student who was outed by paranoid parents of other kids.

I'm sure she just wanted to live her life.

You are seeing pictures of Transgender Activists. Why do you think they're going public?

a reply to: network dude

Like you said, it's to prove a point. And to get the fundies to shut up.

originally posted by: SonsOfTheMeek

originally posted by: yuppa

originally posted by: SonsOfTheMeek

originally posted by: yuppa
a reply to: SonsOfTheMeek

Umm not if he dont have the paperwork backing it up he cant.
Unless he gets a doctoor to say he IS a woman in a mans body he cannot be in there.

Nope. You're uninformed. There's nothing in these laws that says you're required to show paperwork. In fact, to ask for any constitutes harassment and opens you up for a lawsuit.

Youre missing a point. IS the man dressed as a female? You never specified this.

Sure, why not? We'll say he dressed as a woman to go into a public women's shower room in this hypothetical situation. What is your point?

Because if he does not act female and look female he will have a situation and be arrested. Its not legal for him to go into a female shower room for the purpose of ogling the women.
ALso I dont know of ANY TRANSGENDER Who will go into a bathroom they dont look like they belong in. So your original fear is unfounded. Going into a restroom full of guys for a very feminine trangender is like tossing a bone to a dog and really dangerous.

originally posted by: network dude
I don't seem to get it. Nobody on Earth would know that these women used to be men. So unless they just want attention, if they truly did just want to live their lives as women, then if they shut up, that's exactly how their lives would be. Or is that not the norm? (if it's not, then those pushing those pictures have been woefully dishonest)

As Annee noted, people that are "out" are activists or have been outed or have stepped out of the shadows to show that trans people are not horrible baby eating monsters. Visibility is a way of helping others or dealing with things internally. Something like only 16% of people actually know someone who is trans so it is no wonder there is so much confusion and misunderstanding. Some want to change that.

I've shared my history here for the very same reason - for awareness and understanding. I've lived my entire adult life as "just a woman" and the people I know, see and work with do not know what body parts I was born with nor do I want them to know. It's really rather personal to have to point out something that to me was akin to having an embarrassing birth defect I had corrected when I was young. Online, I can remain anonymous and informative and not suffer the social repercussions or stigmatization of having been down a different path than most folks. I've been a member of this site for nine years (banned, came back) but it was only a year ago this month that I spoke of my past for the first time and it's only because I met someone here like myself that needed another voice to speak out and even then it took a lot of convincing on her part for me to do so.

BUT, in spite of who I am as a person and always have been, the fact that at one time my body was once male is a pretty inescapable part of my history when it comes to relationships and getting to know someone on a much deeper level even if having those male bits was a long long time ago and a faint but unpleasant memory. It isn't something I go around talking about, advertise and is absolutely not a part of my daily life so I have "shut up" as you suggested but it isn't like this tidbit of information isn't a skeleton my closet that will always be a part of my history and who I am regardless of how far in the distant past it was.

I grew up in a time when having gender dysphoria or transsexualism as it was called long ago was even less understood than it is today. I was raised with a lot of shame, ridicule and embarrassment to both me and my parents because who I was and am was in total contradiction to what I was supposed to be according to what was between my legs when I was born. This isn't something I chose, it chose me but as an adult, should I look at this as being something shameful and embarrassing to keep hidden away as a deep dark secret? Society thinks so. You think so. Overcoming these outside perceptions and healthy self-acceptance are things trans people and even gay people have to face and deal with that everyone else takes for granted and for some, the strength to do this involves not hiding.

Should I, we, they ignore this reality completely as you suggest or should others that are more open about their history be forced to hide or live in stealth because it confuses you or offends your sensibilities? For those that have had lives and were known as men before transition, I can only imagine it is even more difficult to not have their history be a bigger part of their lives regardless of how pretty or "normal" they become.

In today's world of big data and digital identities, it is pretty difficult to not leave bread crumbs or a paper trail behind when someone transitions. Living in total fear of discovery is not healthy and some people face that fear head on by being out and proud but for every trans person you see that is, there are hundreds if not thousands of others that prefer to keep these things private and to themselves.

So what is this "woeful dishonesty" you speak of? Can you explain that better?

a reply to: Freija

I have been thinking about how to articulate this, and I hope it comes out right. I appreciate your candor and willingness to help. In all the examples you visually gave, you showed very cute/pretty girl looking pictures. So that is the image we are supposed to have in our mind when discussing this. If that's the case, I can't comprehend why any of them would want to go to the men's room. They look like women, regardless of any laws, they should go to the woman's room. And nobody would question that.

But it seems that everyone is worried about Pat. Which brings up the other end of the spectrum. I can't speak for everyone, but if I saw this person entering either sex bathroom, it would only be an answer to a question I'd rather not ask. But I think nobody should have an issue with it, since nobody is going to do a crotch check. (Even in the south, we don't do that)

I see this law as making sure that Two beered up guys who have no morals, don't decide to go to a jr. high female locker room and claim they identify as a female, so their presence is allowed. (in the south, we call that common sense)

So I'm left with confusion over who in their right mind though that this needed to be addressed in any governmental facet. Unless the small group wants some sort of federal recognition or something. The people who would cause these people problems are the ones we all would rather not be around. They would be thugs.

originally posted by: yuppa

originally posted by: SonsOfTheMeek

originally posted by: yuppa

originally posted by: SonsOfTheMeek

originally posted by: yuppa
a reply to: SonsOfTheMeek

Umm not if he dont have the paperwork backing it up he cant.
Unless he gets a doctoor to say he IS a woman in a mans body he cannot be in there.

Nope. You're uninformed. There's nothing in these laws that says you're required to show paperwork. In fact, to ask for any constitutes harassment and opens you up for a lawsuit.

Youre missing a point. IS the man dressed as a female? You never specified this.

Sure, why not? We'll say he dressed as a woman to go into a public women's shower room in this hypothetical situation. What is your point?

Because if he does not act female and look female he will have a situation and be arrested. Its not legal for him to go into a female shower room for the purpose of ogling the women.
ALso I dont know of ANY TRANSGENDER Who will go into a bathroom they dont look like they belong in. So your original fear is unfounded. Going into a restroom full of guys for a very feminine trangender is like tossing a bone to a dog and really dangerous.

Once again, he doesn't have to do anything except claim his gender identity to be female. You're really struggling to understand that part, aren't you? He doesn't have to act female, he doesn't have to look female. After all, who are you to judge what characteristics about him are female and what aren't?

He doesn't even have to claim that he isn't sexually aroused because he can claim himself to be female AND lesbian. Just accept that the SJW's have really opened up a can of worms on this that can't be put back in.

Perverts can now legally do what they want because transgenders couldn't compromise with what shower and locker rooms to use according to their plumbing. Congratulations.

originally posted by: network dude

I see this law as making sure that Two beered up guys who have no morals, don't decide to go to a jr. high female locker room and claim they identify as a female, so their presence is allowed. (in the south, we call that common sense)

You want to deny Equal Rights to a minority because "something might happen"?

originally posted by: SonsOfTheMeek

originally posted by: yuppa

originally posted by: SonsOfTheMeek

originally posted by: yuppa

originally posted by: SonsOfTheMeek

originally posted by: yuppa
a reply to: SonsOfTheMeek

Umm not if he dont have the paperwork backing it up he cant.
Unless he gets a doctoor to say he IS a woman in a mans body he cannot be in there.

Nope. You're uninformed. There's nothing in these laws that says you're required to show paperwork. In fact, to ask for any constitutes harassment and opens you up for a lawsuit.

Youre missing a point. IS the man dressed as a female? You never specified this.

Sure, why not? We'll say he dressed as a woman to go into a public women's shower room in this hypothetical situation. What is your point?

Because if he does not act female and look female he will have a situation and be arrested. Its not legal for him to go into a female shower room for the purpose of ogling the women.
ALso I dont know of ANY TRANSGENDER Who will go into a bathroom they dont look like they belong in. So your original fear is unfounded. Going into a restroom full of guys for a very feminine trangender is like tossing a bone to a dog and really dangerous.

Once again, he doesn't have to do anything except claim his gender identity to be female. You're really struggling to understand that part, aren't you? He doesn't have to act female, he doesn't have to look female. After all, who are you to judge what characteristics about him are female and what aren't?

He doesn't even have to claim that he isn't sexually aroused because he can claim himself to be female AND lesbian. Just accept that the SJW's have really opened up a can of worms on this that can't be put back in.

Perverts can now legally do what they want because transgenders couldn't compromise with what shower and locker rooms to use according to their plumbing. Congratulations.

Youre flat wrong.

Youre flat wrong.

Keep telling yourself that if it makes you feel secure in your position or you can actually read these laws and see how they are being interpreted around the US and open your eyes.

originally posted by: SonsOfTheMeek
Keep telling yourself that if it makes you feel secure in your position or you can actually read these laws and see how they are being interpreted around the US and open your eyes.

You are aware that 17 states and 250 some cities already protect the rights of a person to use whatever facilities that are the most appropriate for them?

This has not caused an increase in all these theoretical problems the propaganda you've fallen victim to would have you believe.

Maybe the Fundies are afraid of their own.

Couldn't resist.

originally posted by: Freija

originally posted by: SonsOfTheMeek
Keep telling yourself that if it makes you feel secure in your position or you can actually read these laws and see how they are being interpreted around the US and open your eyes.

You are aware that 17 states and 250 some cities already protect the rights of a person to use whatever facilities that are the most appropriate for them?

This has not caused an increase in all these theoretical problems the propaganda you've fallen victim to would have you believe.

This has nothing to do with anything I was talking about.

I'm talking about situations similar to this:
dailysignal.com...

Why can't we just all agree that our women shouldn't have to shower or change with anyone with a penis, regardless of gender identity? I wouldn't have had to ask that just 5 years ago.

a reply to: SonsOfTheMeek

That story is iffy. The cops were not called. Think about that for a minute.

Transitions can be confusing.

There will probably be a few individual incidents and infractions that will need to be addressed.

Can not deny Equal Treatment to a minority group out of fear of possible troublemakers.

Pretty sure similar arguments were brought up with racism.

I think its up to the Transgender organizations/groups if they think its beneficial to have a medical card.

You don't ask those who oppose transgenders.

Good reply and interesting points for discussion.

originally posted by: network dude
I have been thinking about how to articulate this, and I hope it comes out right. I appreciate your candor and willingness to help. In all the examples you visually gave, you showed very cute/pretty girl looking pictures. So that is the image we are supposed to have in our mind when discussing this.

I've also had to measure how to articulate this and it will probably come out wrong? I think using attractive images is easier for folks to visualize and more palatable but you are right, it does not represent the diversity of the trans experience or those that are gender non-conforming so your criticism is valid.

This pic of teen transgender model, Corey Maison was posted last week asking if this was your daughter, would you really want her going in the men's room.

This immediately drew fire for the very reasons you suggested.
Why This Trans Girl's Protest Photo Is Not As Progressive As It Seems
Trans Girl's Anti-North Carolina Photo Goes Viral For All The Wrong Reasons

If you start with those images in your mind, rather than have all this diversity dumped on you all at once, to me it seems like a good starting point to establish the concept with less resistance and controversy. It is a matter of incremental progression. All gay rights weren't won at once and if the faces and portrayals in the media were of horrifically stereotypical fabulous outrageous lisping, limp-wristed flaming queens how far do you think that movement would have gotten?

Here's where my own opinions vary from those of the LGBT machine and the "Transgender Borg" that want to push this whole agenda for those that are gender non-conforming or non-"passable" (ugh) all at once along with those of folks that are inconspicuously transgender or transsexual.

If that's the case, I can't comprehend why any of them would want to go to the men's room. They look like women, regardless of any laws, they should go to the woman's room. And nobody would question that.

Indeed, why would anybody need to question that or not see the common sense involved? I recognize my privilege and hetero/cis normative status. I've never been questioned in a bathroom and don't know why I would be but although I have the appropriate girl parts and have been affirmed only as a girl by others since 1973 , it is technically illegal for me to use the women's bathroom in your state because the state I was born in won't change the paperwork to reflect my anatomy. No doubt my bias is to start at the top with people like me and trans kids in school and work down from there. It is wrong and I'll accept the criticism but if we start this fight with people like Pat, it is going to be a much more difficult battle, no offense to the Pats of the world. I don't mean for this to sound like an "I got mine screw everybody else" attitude but if we start with the gender conforming trans women and men that look like other women and men, then acceptance for those not as fortunate or interested in being binary will follow or at least I hope it would.

I see this law as making sure that Two beered up guys who have no morals, don't decide to go to a jr. high female locker room and claim they identify as a female, so their presence is allowed. (in the south, we call that common sense)

And do you really think common sense is going to allow something like this to actually happen? With men doing this like the jerk at Target to prove a point, who is the actual potential threat here? Trans or gender non-conforming people or pervy men? Predatory pedophiles go after boys too. Where's all the outrage against people like Dennis Hastert using his gender as a way to get close to victims or Catholic priests? Face it, trans and GNC people are at far greater risk than all those "wives and daughters" these laws are promoted to protect and also remember that many trans and GNC folks have children of their own and are likely to ally with the protection of women in the face of a threat.

So I'm left with confusion over who in their right mind though that this needed to be addressed in any governmental facet. Unless the small group wants some sort of federal recognition or something.

Have you seen the pictures of the young students I have posted? Do you need me to post them again? This is where this started and why it is necessary because parents of transgender kids don't want them to have to grow up with being ostracized and bullied, with shame and embarrassment for being different in ways beyond their control like I did and so they have the chance to grow up to be normal and healthy adults which by all measures is only luck that I wasn't killed or killed myself and was able to become. The lives of these kids are very vulnerable and being able to have the same treatment and opportunities of any other kid paramount.

Then you have the fanatical right and groups like the American Family Association and the Liberty Counsel lobbying legislatures with their anti-LGBT agenda and the Republican National Committee jumping on the bandwagon to directly attack the Obama administration's policies on equality and the interpretation of the Civil Rights Act of 1964 and more specifically the Department of Education's inclusion of gender identity/expression under Title IX. All of this is in retribution for marriage equality.

Amid consideration in state legislatures of “papers to pee” bathroom bills aimed against transgender students, the Republican National Committee has approved a resolution endorsing the legislation.

The resolution, approved under the chairmanship of Reince Priebus, condemns as “governmental overreach” the Obama administration’s interpretation of Title IX of the Education Amendments of 1972 to prohibit discrimination against transgender students.

“The Republican National Committee calls on the Department of Education to rescind its interpretation of Title IX that wrongly includes facility use issues by transgender students,” the resolution says. The “whereas” portion of the resolution defines gender as “the physical condition of being male or female,” saying gender is identified at birth and can be confirmed with a DNA test — which is contrary to the experience of transgender people. The resolution also specifies Congress never included the term “gender identity” under Title IX and identifies courts that have ruled the gender provisions under the law don’t apply to transgender students.

This fundie and Republican war goes a lot further than just bathrooms. Some states have proposed legislation to remove already existing protections and rights of trans people to get driver's licenses and other identification reflecting their accurate gender. There is an absolute flustercluck of different laws and regulations in practically every state in the country and it is an ugly patchwork of inconsistency. Visit this page at the Transgender Law Center for a state-by-state look at these issues.

Out of room for more.

originally posted by: Deaf Alien
a reply to: SonsOfTheMeek

That story is iffy. The cops were not called. Think about that for a minute.

Exactly. Why would they be? No law was broken.

a reply to: SonsOfTheMeek

How many people were there? You can bet somebody called the cops. Think again.