Virginia gives voting rights to Felons?

originally posted by: M5xaz

originally posted by: enlightenedservant

originally posted by: M5xaz

originally posted by: Subaeruginosa
I personally think that even people serving time should have the right to vote.

Criminals are still citizens who are subjected to the policies enacted by elected officials... in a true democracy, why shouldn't they be allowed to vote?

Felons CHOSE to disobey laws.
They CHOSE to not be part of the society's legal framework for civil relations between individuals.

And, with voting, you see nothing wrong with them having a say in a legal system they chose to ignore ?

If you really feel like that, shouldn't the ban extend to anyone who's ever willfully broken a law? That would apply to drug use, speeding, jaywalking, joyriding, and every other crime. After all, these people also chose to ignore the legal system.

Read again.

I said FELONS.

Jaywalking, to use your example, is not a felony, nor should it be.

Unless you equate jaywalking with "joyriding", e.g. stealing a car.

I was referring to the logic in your last sentence, where you said "And, with voting, you see nothing wrong with them having a say in a legal system they chose to ignore?"

My point is that people ignore the legal system all of the time. So if it's really ok to stop people from being able to vote because they chose to ignore the legal system, that logic should apply to others who choose to ignore the legal system too.

a reply to: curiouspatience

Aside from violating the Constitution these people paid their debt. Continuing to punish them would also violate the constitution.

originally posted by: Xcathdra
a reply to: curiouspatience

Aside from violating the Constitution these people paid their debt. Continuing to punish them would also violate the constitution.

Sex offender laws are a violations of the constitution. No one cares about that.

I agree felons once there punishments are complete should have the right to vote.

a reply to: LDragonFire

How is sex offender laws a violation?

originally posted by: Xcathdra
a reply to: LDragonFire

How is sex offender laws a violation?

It continues to punish after they complete there sentence. Placing them on a probation for life.

Its a ecpostfacto violation and a due process violation

Until they decriminalize MJ or drugs in general in any state, then ex and current felons should be able to vote. In VA, having:

More than one-half ounce but not more than five pounds of marijuana is guilty of a Class 5 felony

Can you imagine not being able to vote because you had a smidgeon over 1/2 ounce or like 3/4 ounce of weed in your house or pocket?

People easily forget how easy it is to be a felon in these "free" states of the United America. Don't assume all felons are knife wielding crazies robbing you of your wallet. Many thousands of felons simply broke stupid laws. Doesn't make them less guilty, I get that. But all felons are not created equal.

DP

originally posted by: enlightenedservant

originally posted by: M5xaz

originally posted by: enlightenedservant

originally posted by: M5xaz

originally posted by: Subaeruginosa
I personally think that even people serving time should have the right to vote.

Criminals are still citizens who are subjected to the policies enacted by elected officials... in a true democracy, why shouldn't they be allowed to vote?

Felons CHOSE to disobey laws.
They CHOSE to not be part of the society's legal framework for civil relations between individuals.

And, with voting, you see nothing wrong with them having a say in a legal system they chose to ignore ?

If you really feel like that, shouldn't the ban extend to anyone who's ever willfully broken a law? That would apply to drug use, speeding, jaywalking, joyriding, and every other crime. After all, these people also chose to ignore the legal system.

Read again.

I said FELONS.

Jaywalking, to use your example, is not a felony, nor should it be.

Unless you equate jaywalking with "joyriding", e.g. stealing a car.

I was referring to the logic in your last sentence, where you said "And, with voting, you see nothing wrong with them having a say in a legal system they chose to ignore?"

My point is that people ignore the legal system all of the time. So if it's really ok to stop people from being able to vote because they chose to ignore the legal system, that logic should apply to others who choose to ignore the legal system too.

I see.
So, the penalty should be the same for all crimes ?

You are making moral equivalence again.

True logic and reason point to the principle that the punishment (ex: voting denial) must fit the crime (ex:"joyriding")

a reply to: LDragonFire

That crime, which includes registration as part of the sentence, does not violate the constitution.

originally posted by: Xcathdra
a reply to: LDragonFire

That crime, which includes registration as part of the sentence, does not violate the constitution.

Sex offender laws came into effect in the 90's and 2000's. Many so laws are retroactive going back many years after the laws took effect. Many have been forced to register long after there convictions. So added requirements after they did there time is a violation of the ex post facto.

The due process violation is the reasons people are put on this list is because of a conviction for certain crimes. Each person on this list should have a hearing to determine whether or not they belong on such a list or they should have due process.

I agree with the so laws to a extent buy it was just another power grab by the federal government. but if you think there constitutional then you don't know the constitution.

a reply to: curiouspatience

On the one hand, if the only reason you haven't got a felony record is because of the benefits of having a clean record....you did it all wrong.

On the other hand, these are humans who have a stake in how this nation is run.

To be honest, with the total fustercluck we have in DC after all the non-felons have been voting, i can't think of a single argument against giving them a shot. Can it get any worse than our charade? Maybe we need some less than polite people to get involved and let their voices be heard?

a reply to: bigfatfurrytexan

I totally didahree .

Every crime should be given a life sentence regardless.

originally posted by: M5xaz

originally posted by: enlightenedservant

originally posted by: M5xaz

originally posted by: enlightenedservant

originally posted by: M5xaz

originally posted by: Subaeruginosa
I personally think that even people serving time should have the right to vote.

Criminals are still citizens who are subjected to the policies enacted by elected officials... in a true democracy, why shouldn't they be allowed to vote?

Felons CHOSE to disobey laws.
They CHOSE to not be part of the society's legal framework for civil relations between individuals.

And, with voting, you see nothing wrong with them having a say in a legal system they chose to ignore ?

If you really feel like that, shouldn't the ban extend to anyone who's ever willfully broken a law? That would apply to drug use, speeding, jaywalking, joyriding, and every other crime. After all, these people also chose to ignore the legal system.

Read again.

I said FELONS.

Jaywalking, to use your example, is not a felony, nor should it be.

Unless you equate jaywalking with "joyriding", e.g. stealing a car.

I was referring to the logic in your last sentence, where you said "And, with voting, you see nothing wrong with them having a say in a legal system they chose to ignore?"

My point is that people ignore the legal system all of the time. So if it's really ok to stop people from being able to vote because they chose to ignore the legal system, that logic should apply to others who choose to ignore the legal system too.

I see.
So, the penalty should be the same for all crimes ?

You are making moral equivalence again.

True logic and reason point to the principle that the punishment (ex: voting denial) must fit the crime (ex:"joyriding")

The penalty should be decided by the criminal justice system. That's literally why it exists in the first place. So once a person has finished serving that penalty, they should have their rights restored, including voting.

originally posted by: onequestion
a reply to: bigfatfurrytexan

I totally didahree .

Every crime should be given a life sentence regardless.

Knowing you/your posting history, i have to say that this is pure sarcasm.

But I do think that the limits that are place on a felon are wrong. I would much rather they jump through the same hoops I do to buy a gun, and not be forced to pay the markup of buying from someones trunk. I think that its better for society on the whole.

I'm still scratching my head that Virginia has 206,000 ex-felons in the first place.

originally posted by: Teikiatsu
I'm still scratching my head that Virginia has 206,000 ex-felons in the first place.

Why? With a national incarceration rate of 1% of our population at any given time, and 600,000 laws that we carry like a yoke (including drug laws), the fact that everyone isn't a felon shocks the hell out of me.

Its how you get your rights suspended. Have some citizens who are a little too noisy politically? Easy: make some laws that turn them into felons, and you can effectively slap some tape over their mouths.

a reply to: bigfatfurrytexan

I'm a felon a single punch first and last crime.

And I have a strike from it. Thanks public defender.

a reply to: LDragonFire

and if you did more research you would see the states that have retroactive applications of sex offender laws have been struck down at the state court level. That pesky no ex post facto portion keeps getting in the way. So, once again, what is unconstitutional about the laws?

As for knowing and understanding the Constitution im all set.

a reply to: Xcathdra

You should do a thread so we stop hijacking this thread.

Your last statement is not correct in all states.

Did you know that this law, that felons can't vote, was mainly to target blacks?

Blacks were easily given Felon charges for the lightest of crime. All so that they wouldn't be able to vote!

Also no harm in a Felon voting. It's not like the candidates are going to legalize crime or soemthing