HB2, North Carolina mandate to hate homosexuals.

originally posted by: bigfatfurrytexan

To me, it clearly is.

All I will say is that I am sooo glad you are not a parent to a transgender child. This attitude of being ill or broken is the worst thing you can make a child feel about who they are.

Got the t-shirt on that one.

originally posted by: bigfatfurrytexan
According to the OP, the city of Charlotte was trying to pass municipal laws that would make it a requirement to add in special accommodations for transgendered peoples. This would equate to large personal costs to businesses, as well as schools and other taxing entities.

So, how about if you read some information from the City of Charlotte on that?

What about restrooms and changing facilities?

A place of public accommodation may not refuse to provide the full and equal enjoyment of its facilities
based on a protected characteristic, such as gender identity and gender expression. Restrooms, locker
rooms, and other changing facilities are covered by the ordinance.

The ordinance does NOT require the elimination of separate men’s and women’s facilities, and does not
require a business to provide new or special restroom facilities. However, a business may not prohibit a
transgender person from using the restroom or locker room consistent with the gender identified or
expressed by that person.

The ordinance does not require a business to modify or reconstruct existing men’s and women’s
restroom or changing facilities, although it may choose to do so to accommodate the privacy of its
customers. Restroom facilities designated and signed for males or females are permissible and do not
violate the ordinance.

I was wrong, there wouldn't even have to be a new sign for the door.

for what is, technically and legally, a mental illness that is being resolved through physical surgical intervention that is not required to sustain the safety of life (i.e., elective).

Ah ha! A breakthrough! I get it now!

I did the homework of digging up what was actually in this Charlotte ordinance so maybe you do some homework on the technical and legal definition of gender dysphoria as mental illness and how for those that really have it, the medical necessity of SRS is agreed upon? If you feel misunderstood or that you are having trouble communicating it could be because the underlying attitudes of what you really think about trans people is less than thinly veiled even though your words, intent and support speak otherwise and are appreciated regardless.

originally posted by: Freija

Ah ha! A breakthrough! I get it now!

I'll just hang in till I get it. Or you can explain it to me.

Cuz, its not even registering in my brain. My brain's saying: "What the hell are you talking about?"

originally posted by: Annee
Or you can explain it to me.

It was a eureka moment. BFFT finally came out and said what he's been pussyfooting around all this time. I do appreciate his support and the kind words he has said but the reason he hasn't been able to gain much traction with his disability/illness argument is because he's the only one with that perspective and we haven't gotten it up until now. No wonder I couldn't get on board and connect with that.

originally posted by: bigfatfurrytexan

originally posted by: Annee

originally posted by: Freija

originally posted by: bigfatfurrytexan
And you don't "diagnose" things that aren't illnesses.

And the DSM is a manual of diagnostic and treatment criteria for mental illness, so inclusion in that particular volume is pretty indicative.

You diagnose things to get a treatment code for insurance and many are grateful this wasn't removed from the DSM completely as was homosexuality in 1973. Incidentally, SRS is not considered elective or cosmetic surgery. In the cases where it is indicated, it is deemed medically necessary treatment.

Right. I remember that now.

I just don't understand the insistence on this bring an illness, when it clearly is not.

To me, it clearly is.

You genuinely disappoint me.

originally posted by: Freija

originally posted by: bigfatfurrytexan

To me, it clearly is.

All I will say is that I am sooo glad you are not a parent to a transgender child. This attitude of being ill or broken is the worst thing you can make a child feel about who they are.

Got the t-shirt on that one.

Why do people who have a mental illness have to be broken? What is equating those 2 things? Because THAT is something I actually just can't get my head around. I know many people with a mental diagnosis. They aren't broken.

When you have the flu, are you broken? What if you lose your job and end up depressed and needing to get a bit of therapy? Is that broken?

Like i mentioned earlier: if the term "mental illness" is offensive, then we need to invent vernacular so we don't keep hitting this brick wall over and over and over again. You asked me why i just won't speak honestly. When I do...it results in this every single time. Regardless of who it is. I mean, look what is a few posts down the page:

originally posted by: AngryCymraeg


You genuinely disappoint me.

How on God's green Earth is there suppose to be any discussion? When you take someone who generally supports "the cause", would be willing to physically fight someone to ensure your rights are maintained and that you don't suffer public indignity, and respond to them with this? Just because the term "mental illness" is offensive?

People with mental illness don't have to be broken. But Im at a loss for what to call it when you have what you say is a non-elective surgery, if it isn't an illness. Or, rather, cannot believe that we do such extensive surgery, putting life at risk, if an illness is not present to predicate it.

But Ill tell you one thing: im so thoroughly disgusted with this at this point, that Im not sure I even care to understand this any further.


ETA: something I have told my son:

being gay is not "who" you are. Its "what" you are. You are not reduced to what you do or have in your pants. That is not who you are. Who you are is a complex being capable of all manner of beautiful (and horrible) things. What you are is just a box that you are fit into.

You say this:

being ill or broken is the worst thing you can make a child feel about who they are.

And that is a fundamental disconnect for me. Your gender, what you have in your pants and how you choose to use it is not WHO you are. It may relate to WHAT you are. The various boxes you get stuck in. But WHO you are transcends those boxes.

Just my 2 cents on that subject.

originally posted by: bigfatfurrytexan
The problem im seeing here: honest discussion does not seem possible. Mostly because we keep getting hung up on the term "mental illness".

I think the debate over this is pretty pointless, it's semantics.
The idea of medical help and transition is to give an individual the best quality of life, to deal with whatever it is they are dealing with. It has no impact on anyone else, society has no right to be dictating whether the process someone is going through is "right" or "necessary" - it's not your body, it's not your mind, it's not your life, none of this should matter to you.

The whole point is this is how that person feels, or this is how that person is, they have a right to live their life as they choose and the best way to give them that quality of life is to assist them to live that life with the same rights and freedoms as everyone else in society.

It seems to me that people getting hung up on this semantics debate and their opinions over what is right and wrong are really claiming that they have a right to dictate how others should live, or what rights other should have, depending on their own individual narrow view.

Transgender people exist, it makes no difference whether someone else thinks it's a psychological problem, a biological problem, a "phase" or anything else. They have the right to live their lives with freedom and dignity just as the rest of society does, and that means equality in all aspects of life.

originally posted by: Rocker2013

originally posted by: bigfatfurrytexan
The problem im seeing here: honest discussion does not seem possible. Mostly because we keep getting hung up on the term "mental illness".

I think the debate over this is pretty pointless, it's semantics.
The idea of medical help and transition is to give an individual the best quality of life, to deal with whatever it is they are dealing with. It has no impact on anyone else, society has no right to be dictating whether the process someone is going through is "right" or "necessary" - it's not your body, it's not your mind, it's not your life, none of this should matter to you.

It wouldn't if the discussion didn't involve possibly having to invest tens of thousands at my business at some point int he future to make restrooms compliant with the whims of change.

The whole point is this is how that person feels, or this is how that person is, they have a right to live their life as they choose and the best way to give them that quality of life is to assist them to live that life with the same rights and freedoms as everyone else in society.

Again, don't disagree at all. What I disagree with, in the context of this thread, is the notion that at some point in the future businesses in my community will have to spend tens of thousands having bathrooms altered to accomodate the changes that are coming to our legal system as a result of this whole discussion. Up until that point, i have no stake and have no care one way or the other. I encourage people to do what makes them happy. This short life is miserable by nature...you should feel completely empowered to make it the best you can.

It seems to me that people getting hung up on this semantics debate and their opinions over what is right and wrong are really claiming that they have a right to dictate how others should live, or what rights other should have, depending on their own individual narrow view.

Transgender people exist, it makes no difference whether someone else thinks it's a psychological problem, a biological problem, a "phase" or anything else. They have the right to live their lives with freedom and dignity just as the rest of society does, and that means equality in all aspects of life.

So long as my community doesn't suffer the massive closing of businesses that a law requiring a third bathroom would create. We live in a part of the world that is boom/bust economically. If you run a business here, and can make it beyond the first year, its because either we are in a boom, or you are on of the few that has enough business to make it on a shoestring. We lost on restaurant last year when they were facing a legally required $5k upgrade to their grease trap. I grew up eating there, it was a local legend. But, like all local restaurants, they operate on ridiculously tight margins. $5k sent them over the cliff, and they closed.

A few years earlier, it was a kitchen fire. Not a big one, just the stove was destroyed. The $8k or so to replace the stove closed the restaurant. A restaurant that was around in the 40's, and was another local legend.

Each one of these businesses that closes reduces the quality of life for me and the people I live around. Running a business here myself....i know what its like and what it takes. And if you are paying less than $2.50/gallon for gas, we are in an economic bust cycle here. But i think my community has enough abandoned buildings.

originally posted by: bigfatfurrytexan
It wouldn't if the discussion didn't involve possibly having to invest tens of thousands at my business at some point int he future to make restrooms compliant with the whims of change.

It doesn't have to.

People can just go to the toilet.

Restrooms are the third most common sexually assault location apparently. This would scare me except most of these assaults occur between 0500hrs and 0830hrs. Most of them are men as well. Maybe we should just ban men from leaving the house. They're statistically more likely to do these things, so you know. It makes sense.

Toilets should only be for women. Men should hold it till they go home.

a reply to: Pinke

the sad part is, a few years ago, this would be easily recognized hyperbole. Today, not so much.

a reply to: network dude

Yes, unfortunately I agree a tiny bit.

Also glad you've noticed the use of humour and it makes you grin. Have had more than a few times where people go into a diatribe about how I'm crazy etc for 5 billion words before realizing I'm being a dork to make a point.

I stand by what I said before though. Screw those wheelie people.

a reply to: bigfatfurrytexan

Hi there, first let me make clear that I have no hard feelings towards you. I just do not like being called mentally ill, it is not something that sits well with me. On the other hand if I have to allow a shrink to put a label on me so I can get prescribed the hormones I need and get approved for certain surgeries that require a certified diagnosis of gender dysphoria then so be it. To be honest with you I think the only reason it is classified the way it is is to meet insurance requirements otherwise it would be deemed elective as opposed to corrective surgery and thus not covered.

My personal opinion is that in the beginning the pioneers of the Trans community kind of had to claim the mental illness card in order to be taken seriously and receive the treatment they sought so unfortunately the label has stuck. So the label as a mental disorder is an unfortunate result of us just trying to be taken seriously. I know many girls in the community and quite frankly there are some who I think are batshi+ but for the most part nobody comes off as or identifies as being mentally ill. That label is unfortunately one of the hoops we have to jump through to get approval for what we need/want. So if a psychiatrist has to put a check in a box so that I can get approval and insurance coverage of procedures that I know will be to my benefit then I can live with that. It's almost like making a deal with the devil with the establishment playing that role and saying "we will prescribe what you need to feel better but you have to accept this stigmatizing label with it, bitter pill to swallow as they say. What I can not tolerate is random Joe off the street telling me I am mentally Ill.

On a side note if I remember correctly you used to do instructional firearms video's on youtube which I actually found to be informative. Also if I'm not mistaken didn't you accidentally shoot yourself holstering a sidearm? You really are one of the better, more open minded and compassionate members. I actually like a lot of what you have to say most times so please do not take my difference of opinion on this matter to be personal attacks against you.

a reply to: RainbowPhoenix

My job makes the making of any video time prohibitive. If i had the desire.

Never shot myself, either. Although I did get a slide bite from a smaller .40 cal that i had just bought (the one i usually carry now, actually). That was just me being an idiot and not having my hand clear of the slide. Im a dirty blond, so maybe thats my excuse? LOL

But it must be someone else you recall.

originally posted by: Pinke


Toilets should only be for women. Men should hold it till they go home.

To be somewhat serious though, this is the strategy of most people I know. The thought of using a public restroom for anything more than just standing at a urinal gives me the heebies. If i ascend to the public throne, you can rest assured that the problems i have going on are problematic enough that I wouldn't know if a parade of elephants marched through.

(to be real honest, it took all my willpower to stifle that pedantic fool inside, and not make a bathroom joke about the parade of elephants....although I guess i just kinda did it anyway)

a reply to: bigfatfurrytexan

Nothing you've said addresses any of the points regarding people over reacting.

People are going to the toilet right now. No one is going missing. Get over it and grow up America. The end.

originally posted by: Pinke
a reply to: bigfatfurrytexan

Nothing you've said addresses any of the points regarding people over reacting.

People are going to the toilet right now. No one is going missing. Get over it and grow up America. The end.

Actually, you've not read the multiple times I have said that exact same thing in this thread. If you believe "nothing i've said addresses" it...just go back and read. Go ahead.

Ill even save you some effort, and just quote myself from the prior page:

originally posted by: bigfatfurrytexan


.....people should just go into the bathroom and do their business. If you want to pass a law, pass one making it a crime to harass someone about what their gender is while going to the bathroom. That seems more appropriate, honestly. Rather than throw money at it, just force people to get along or be fined for being jerks. Case solved, lets move on to the Middle East to solve some problems now.

a reply to: bigfatfurrytexan

So, your concern is of a logical/practical/financial nature that government can force you to comply, at your expense, to build a third restroom to accommodate the "mentally ill" via requirements of the ADA?

a reply to: bigfatfurrytexan

Forgive me, your highness, your octopus like panicking over the immediate closing down of the United States small business economy based on the opening of new toilet facilities didn't tip me off.

originally posted by: Annee
a reply to: bigfatfurrytexan

So, your concern is of a logical/practical/financial nature that government can force you to comply, at your expense, to build a third restroom to accommodate the "mentally ill" via requirements of the ADA?

That's really it. Although you don't need to include the word "mentally ill". I think "protected classes" is enough to predicate a bathroom rebuild, if this debacle continues in that direction.

originally posted by: Pinke
a reply to: bigfatfurrytexan

Forgive me, your highness, your octopus like panicking over the immediate closing down of the United States small business economy based on the opening of new toilet facilities didn't tip me off.

In a boomtown economy during a bust....so much as having to rent a port a potty is enough to throw a small business over the edge. Which, in a boomtown economy during a bust, means folks go without whatever service that place offered. Or drive 50 miles to the next town, which isn't really that easy when your car has been repo'd (a common thing going on in the area right now).

The upside: if you wanna buy a boat or an RV, the local banks have quite a few repo's parked in front for a real steal.

a reply to: bigfatfurrytexan

In a boomtown economy during a bust ... people can still go to the toilet for free unless people legislate against it.

The upside: poop goes in the can instead of on the street.