Why is it so important that the Bible be true?

a reply to: Discotech

Talk about an all encompassing generalization. I'm sure the billion plus Christians all don't share the same view. God is infallible man is not. The Bible was written by man thus the Bible is fallible. As a former Atheist /Agnostic I understand almost all of the arguments against religion and God. I changed my heart and mind when I had a NDE and later when I experienced some psychedelic trips I felt love and I felt God and have viewed life through a different scope. Regardless if the Bible is flawed (it is) it still has good morals and values to live by. Its given billions of people hope and comfort. Is that a bad thing?(don't bring up the crusades, religious extremists those are the exception not the rule they were destined to be psychopaths regardless of their faith) it is still a new positive for society to have a form of social control. I see no real benefit of this thread its just an Atheist trolling Christians so he can feel like the smartest guy in the proverbial room(get it proverbs). To me the world nay universe is just too complex to be here with no further explanation. I understand the big bang but what was before that? Who caused that? Ever look at how the brain works? Are you saying that's not intelligently designed? The problem with every Atheist is they claim to know the answers but they provide none also not every Christian thinks the world is 6,000 years old and the Flintstones were a documentary. I believe no one knows exactly what God is but I myself found my way to him through the teaching of Jesus Christ as it has healed my callow heart. I believe there is many paths to God.

originally posted by: Discotech
a reply to: Krazysh0t

Not a lie because they've convinced themselves it's the truth, so it's more delusion than lie

It's actually not dissimilar to Stockholm Syndrome where a captive starts having empathy towards their captor

So would you call these people gullible? They've so thoroughly deceived themselves that they invent justifications for their beliefs?

a reply to: BoxFulder

Lex Luthor says it best "If God is all powerful then he is not all good, if he's all good then he's not all powerful"

a reply to: Krazysh0t

No not gullible, just human, we are equally capable of creating our own illusions of reality

originally posted by: Krazysh0t

originally posted by: ChesterJohn

originally posted by: Krazysh0t, but many Christians refuse to do so holding to the idea that the Bible is true, even at the expense of quality evidence stating that isn't the case.

What particular example can you give (quoting the Bible) of an issue that is not true, also please quote the quality evidence that shows the truth to that which the Bible says.

That way we can see what is you are specifically saying isn't true in the Bible but true in the real world.

There was no global flood. Humans can't walk on water. You can't fit two of every animal in the world in a boat. You can't repopulate a species of animal (human or otherwise) with just two of that species. You can't turn water into wine. Bushes on fire don't speak.

I would add Abraham likely never existed, and the Exodus never happened.

This is a complicated question, Krazy. There's a lot that could be covered to answer it, but simplified, it comes down to culture, fear, and pride. I just said in another thread that we don't like to think we have been scammed, and some of us will go to great lengths to deny we have been.

Speaking for myself: I needed god for many years of my life, yet I both feared that he was, and feared the idea that he was not. Same with the bible. It didn't matter how much evidence was mounting up against it, I still believed it was gods word to me, because the devil is real and crafty, and I couldn't imagine my life without my faith. I might as well be dead. My whole family, as well as my country is Christian. How could there not be any truth to it? What about my experiences with god? He spoke to me. I know he did. I heard his voice more than once, and that voice was right in what it said every time. You see where I'm going here...

Christianity is no different from the other cults, like the Moonies and others I used to "witness" to about Jesus. They were just as convinced as I was they were right, and everyone else had it wrong. Why did my bible need to be right? Because if it wasn't, I was left without a leg to stand on. My faith would crumble to dust.

a reply to: Krazysh0t

A old Italian guy said to me once .Its much better to believe and find out that it isnt true then to not believe and find out it is . I had no idea what he was talking about because at the time I was a atheist . I later read the Book and it was nothing like what I had assumed it was . To me its a truth that just seems to grow ,the more I read and study it .Even you have to admit that you are less ignorant about the book then you used to be .

originally posted by: Discotech
a reply to: Krazysh0t

No not gullible, just human, we are equally capable of creating our own illusions of reality

Fair enough, and I agree with that.

a reply to: Klassified

Yea, I can see where you are coming from here as I too used to be Catholic and had trouble looking at things through a non-Christian lens. I too used to have this problem, but my trust in science also caused me to believe in things like evolution and plate tectonics. So I would sit and try to rationalize how these things would work within the bible or not think about the inconsistencies too much. My favorite rationalization used to be saying that the 7 days of Genesis don't necessarily have to be Earth days, but then I sat down and figured out the time frames involved for each day and realized that even this cop out doesn't hold up. The length of each day is wildly variable (the first one is longer than the next 6 combined) and certain things happen twice.

originally posted by: Krazysh0t

originally posted by: ChesterJohn

originally posted by: Krazysh0t, but many Christians refuse to do so holding to the idea that the Bible is true, even at the expense of quality evidence stating that isn't the case.

What particular example can you give (quoting the Bible) of an issue that is not true, also please quote the quality evidence that shows the truth to that which the Bible says.

That way we can see what is you are specifically saying isn't true in the Bible but true in the real world.

There was no global flood. Humans can't walk on water. You can't fit two of every animal in the world in a boat. You can't repopulate a species of animal (human or otherwise) with just two of that species. You can't turn water into wine. Bushes on fire don't speak.

Every Continent shows evidence of a great flood.

You only need two pure canine genes to get all the known breads of canine over the centuries unto today . You could not do it today because the gene pools are so corrupted. But the genetic make-up was purer then than it is now. So the same goes for all animals species cats, birds monkey's etc . . .

You only have to have the animals on board for a year and a half. So newly weaned animals are smaller and easier to care for and when they leave the ark they will be ready to breed and start repopulating the earth.

You or I can't turn water into wine but God can.

The bush burned but was not consumed by the fire re-read Exodus again.. The bush did not speak it was an angel of the Lord that spoke. Paul told us that Moses received the Law from the mouth of an angel.

Just because you don't believe something is possible doesn't mean it is not true.

a reply to: the2ofusr1

I've heard this explanation myself too, the problem with this narrative is that it assumes that there are only two possibilities. Disbelief or Christianity, but that clearly isn't true because there are hundreds of different religions in the world. Each with its own varying denominations and different beliefs among those religions. Then if you go by the idea that religion is a guess and there are probably an infinite set of ideas we could worship called religion, this whole premise falls to pieces.

Not to mention, belief just to be on the safe side is more or less belief because you are scared of the consequences of being wrong. That doesn't sound like a good reason to believe, especially for a religion that is supposed to be preaching love, tolerance and acceptance.

a reply to: Discotech

I never said anything about all powerful and wow a quote from Superman how deep and thought provoking I guess I'll abandon my faith now I believe in free will. God just is, he isn't an interventionist he's a creator. We are responsible for what happens on earth and Christianity, Judaism, Islam(not radicial) Buddhism etc are just templates to make ourselves better people. With the way you Atheists are coming across in this thread I can sense you have a void in your soul. Why else would the OP start a trolling thread he's looking for validation.

originally posted by: Krazysh0t
a reply to: Klassified

Yea, I can see where you are coming from here as I too used to be Catholic and had trouble looking at things through a non-Christian lens. I too used to have this problem, but my trust in science also caused me to believe in things like evolution and plate tectonics. So I would sit and try to rationalize how these things would work within the bible or not think about the inconsistencies too much. My favorite rationalization used to be saying that the 7 days of Genesis don't necessarily have to be Earth days, but then I sat down and figured out the time frames involved for each day and realized that even this cop out doesn't hold up. The length of each day is wildly variable (the first one is longer than the next 6 combined) and certain things happen twice.

It's those kinds of things that began leading me out of the abyss. For many years, I was afraid to really question my faith, and the bible I trusted in. I was afraid of being deceived by the devil, and I feared gods wrath. Maybe a part of me also knew it wouldn't stand up to secular scrutiny, and I wouldn't be able to defend it. I'm not sure.

I had a pastor once tell me if Christianity was wrong, he didn't want to be right. Guess that settles that.

originally posted by: ChesterJohn
Every Continent shows evidence of a great flood.

Every continent has evidence of floods, that doesn't mean they were all the same flood. In fact, there is no evidence to suggest that they were.

You only need two pure canine genes to get all the known breads of canine over the centuries unto today . You could not do it today because the gene pools are so corrupted. But the genetic make-up was purer then than it is now. So the same goes for all animals species cats, birds monkey's etc . . .

Um... What? Genetic drift makes all of this impossible in the past and in the present.

You only have to have the animals on board for a year and a half. So newly weaned animals are smaller and easier to care for and when they leave the ark they will be ready to breed and start repopulating the earth.

I don't care for how long they had to be on the boat, it's impossible. For one no boat can be large enough to fit them all it in, plus food, plus lodging for the humans, plus supplies, etc. For two, collecting all those animals is also impossible, especially for goat herders 4000 years ago.

You or I can't turn water into wine but God can.

No one can.

The bush burned but was not consumed by the fire re-read Exodus again.. The bush did not speak it was an angel of the Lord that spoke. Paul told us that Moses received the Law from the mouth of an angel.

Sure whatever. That's all impossible.

Just because you don't believe something is possible doesn't mean it is not true.

You're right. You have to produce the evidence showing that it can happen. After all, I could make many of the same claims about the Lord of the Rings or Star Wars.

PS: This is a thread about why you want the bible to be true, not "please prove the bible is true to me".

a reply to: BoxFulder

Where do we draw our perception of God from though ?

Your perception of God whether you like it or not is most likely drawn from the bible, if the bible is capable of fallacy due to being written by man then your perception of God is also fallible.

If God is just merely a creator then what benefit does it serve to believe and open your heart to him ?

And please I am not an Athiest, I was raised Christian despite never once believing what I was told through the hours of Sunday School and Religious Education lessons I was forced to endure, I am now Agnostic as I'm quite capable of being rational enough to admit I cannot prove a God does not exist, and lack of evidence of existence is not proof of a lack of existence. So I believe there may be a God, but not in the image any man can ever comprehend and certainly not an all caring benevolent being

I quoted the Superman comment because I find it to be very relevant when it comes to our Western perceptions of God founded on the Christian doctrine of an all powerful AND benevolent divine being

a reply to: Klassified

The Catholic priest scandal back in the 90's pretty much destroyed my faith. After that I became less and less of a believer. I told people that I was Christian non-denominational while in the Army, but that was just me trying to desperately hold onto my faith. I still wanted, at the very least, for the Bible to be true.

a reply to: Krazysh0t

You don't need many other options to not believe .You can simply choose not to believe ,period . That is where I was .I had no idea about the many subjects that were in the Bible .To my surprise it turned out that any notion I had got from society or the RCC religion was just not in there and there was a wonderful story I had never heard . I say RCC but have to say that I never went to church so it was more about over hearing them speak to my cousins and others. Just because you hear "Noah's Ark" doesn't mean you know what the truth surrounding the subject is all about . Just because you read of a 7 headed 10 horn beast coming up out of the sea means you know what the truth of the matter is . These and other things need to be studied . Call it a study into Metaphysics that doesn't require you to go into debt up to your eyeballs and something that may be more true then a standard physics course .

a reply to: Krazysh0t

There was no global flood. Humans can't walk on water. You can't fit two of every animal in the world in a boat. You can't repopulate a species of animal (human or otherwise) with just two of that species. You can't turn water into wine. Bushes on fire don't speak.

Sure sounds like a fairy tale to me. Forty days and Forty nights, Noah and his sons probably had a lot of crap to clean-up. Noah was quite the engineer and boat builder. Balancing a boat that size with elephants, horses, hippos and other big animals was a major feat. Storing food for 40 days without a refrigerator, they would of all died from food poisoning, unless they lived off of nuts and raisins! I'm sure the animals couldn't live off of nuts and raisins.

a reply to: Discotech

I don't take my feelings of God from the Bible except through what Jesus has taught. He existed as a teacher of morals and kindness. To me the whole old testament is irrelevant to me (but if it speaks to others good for them) I used to drink heavily, I was a womanizer, I am a ex US service member suffering from PTSD, and had severe crippling depression. I decided to commit suicide i was in a coma for 2 weeks. I thought my life couIdnt get worse then i came out of a coma with $75,000 in medical bills needless to say my life wasn't working for me. I was a staunch Atheist a man of cruel science my whole life. I had a hole in my heart. I turned to God through encouragement from friends. I initially laughed it off but at the same time I was open minded because I had no other options. I read several religious books from the I-ching, the Torah, Quran as well as Zoroaster texts trying to find answers but once I read the Gospels I felt it called to me(yes I read it last my family was Southern Baptist and forced me to go to church, I was the smart ass in Sunday school asking why God gives cancer to kids) It covered my bitter resentments towards a cruel world, my unwillingness to forgive, and I started practicing what I read and I felt better. I truly felt the hand of God once I tried eLeSDee for the first time. I stood outside watched the sun come up, watched the neighbors dog and felt a sense of calm and love in the most brilliant vivid way. I told myself life is no accident we are here for a reason, life is beautiful make the world better. So I've been trying my best to be kind, giving, and loving towards mankind as it has gave me purpose for which I thank the Lord Jesus Christ for. If the Bible was a simple fact there would be no need for faith.

a reply to: the2ofusr1

For me, it is a numbers game. Christianity's odds of being true are no more positive than, say, Buddhism, or Hinduism. So choosing to believe in one just because the stories are colorful is basically the same as drawing a religion out of a hat and believing in that one.

Pure and simple helps em deal with the world around them. It's the reason god tends to hang out in prisons and target the people with self admitted mental disorders. He rarely comes to people with comfortable, stable environments.

People with a poor quality of life or been dealt a bad hand want to believe there is a reason for it, a greater meaning to the suffering created by man. No one wants to believe this is as good as it gets. Like the social mechanism it was designed to be, the bible helps maintain a stable workforce (who are not allowed to escape through suicide, the single greatest concept enforced within a religion and the main reason for the success and sustainability of the slave trade)

If you don't accept a greater cause then you accept your position in "fuedal" system. People don't like to accept it. Although I would rather accept it than living in hope.

Hmmm... I want to reply in depth, but my 1st attempt ended up drifting off topic. LOL I think I may be a bit confused so I'll just respond to each question in the last paragraph of the OP.

And hey, just for #s and giggles, let's extend an olive branch to the Muslims and Jews out there. Why is it important for your holy books to be true?

I can't speak for other Muslims, but my acknowledgment of and submission to God had nothing to do with the Qur'an or the Prophets. So personally, it wouldn't matter much to me if it turned out to be fake or altered. However, I do think it's full of great advice, though I'll get more into that later.

Have any of you considered what life would be like if those books WEREN'T true?

Yeah, life would suck LOL. Here's the thing about the Qur'an. The vast majority of it isn't even about history. It's mostly advice for people who choose to worship and obey God, things to say in specific prayers or forms of prayer, and other revelations which could almost be considered poetic "mantras" (especially when said in the original language). Many parts of it are more like "self help" advice and/or explain the reasons for things.

For example, there are times when I want to rationalize my anger. But the Qur'an's passages about the importance of patience help me remember to hold my tongue and be patient.

Is there something wrong with starting from the idea of no knowns and then collecting evidence to see how things work?

Well, I studied a lot of things before submitting to God. It's a long story, but it was my quest for the truth of the world that led me down this path in the first place. Attributing everything "supernatural" to "mental illness" is a crock of crap to me, especially after learning that one of the major points of the Age of Enlightenment was to come up with explanations that deliberately took religious concepts out of the equation.

Doesn't that seem logical and reasonable?

Too much logic and reason is a bad thing. Focusing too much on logic while ignoring emotions & empathy tends to lead to psychotic "solutions". After all, "Social Darwinism" and "depopulation" can be rationalized, even though they're basically euphemisms for genocide.

Have you considered that the only reason you believe these books to be true is because your parents and elders told you they were?

Nope The Qur'an's passages basically come down to 1. things that are required of God's followers; 2. things that are forbidden for us; 3. things that are recommended but not required; 4. things that are discouraged but not forbidden; 5. things that are allowed but neither recommended nor discouraged; 6. corrections of previous accounts of specific stories or instances; and 7. food for thought.

Other than #6 & #7, I don't even know we'd determine those. After all, it's just advice/guidance for people who choose to follow it. Remember, status in Islam is based on our level of piety. So the more we accept, know, and live this guidance, the "better" we are. But Islam is also voluntary, with each person having to make the decision on their own. So it's a bit different than what you're implying.

Well what if they were wrong? How do you know they knew what they were talking about?

Here's one of my favorite Surahs/Revelations (Surah 109, Pickthall translation)

1. Say: O disbelievers!
2. I worship not that which ye worship;
3. Nor worship ye that which I worship.
4. And I shall not worship that which ye worship.
5. Nor will ye worship that which I worship.
6. Unto you your religion, and unto me my religion.

It's literally telling us how to interact with nonbelievers. If it somehow weren't true, does this mean we should interact differently with non-believers? What does an elder's knowledge of this Surah have to do with its authenticity or advice?