Faith without works and the error of grace

a reply to: DISRAELI

And I absolutely won't take Paul's word for anything because it as well as he is garbage. You are not even remotely close to redeeming your pseudo-apostle because you are well aware of the facts. I really have been taking it easy because I don't want to be a **** and I literally have all the time to sit and wait and bust it out when I feel like it, because I have well proven my case for anyone who is paying attention. And people that love this Paul will always defend him when possible, it really is not possible in this case for several reasons that are good enough to convict Paul, again, IF you are paying attention. Which of course you think you are, but I am satisfied that I have provided a solid case. From the Bible itself. All scripture and Plenty of it and I'll continue later with the book of Revelation.

a reply to: Heresiarch
I have already pointed out that you don't have to take Paul's word for it.
You can go to the book of Deuteronomy.
Deuteronomy is the Law, or part of the Law.
So if Deuteronomy says anything, that is part of what "the Law" says.

Deuteronomy has declared a curse on those who don't keep all the commands contained in the Law.
If Deuteronomy has declared a curse, tnen the Law has declared a curse.
If the Law has declared a curse, then Paul's own statement that the Law has declared a curse is nothing less than the truth.

If you are at all capable of reading words on a printed page and understanding what you read, then you can see this for yourself.
But of course, as I have observed before, you are one of those people who genuinely do not want to understand.

a reply to: DISRAELI

You can not undo the fact that Paul is just like Jesus said any person who swore oaths...at all, never mind to God, was and he literally said they are " of the evil one."

I'm sure you will legalese your way around that somehow, by giving Paul immunity most likely. At least you actually do know the scriptures I will give you that, but this should be a challenge for youto try and reconcile. Certainly you can understand my problem with Paul fulfilling numerous false prophet prophecies spoke of by Jesus and my stance against Paul on his beef with the real Apostles. He is a total **** talker, calling them "Apostles of men" and saying they don't have the truth in them. I draw my line and you might be on the other side, but at least I am pretty sure you are following your conscience just like I am, so I don't fault you, who am I? I look forward to what you have to say on oaths in God'sname being of the evil one and Paul swearing to God repeatedly. Or even just once.

originally posted by: Heresiarch
a reply to: yuppa

I am not interested in a link. I do my own interpretations. The fact that you can look at this evidence and not care, still follow Paul makes me not take you seriously.

Is your faith so shakey that you cannot even peruse a alternate view? I said what you said was BASICALLY what JESUS SAID TO BE LIKE TO OTHERS.

Also IF you are doing the things Jesus said to do you are following the Law and not CURSED by th e CONSEQUENCES OF NOT DOING SO. Thats what the curse of the law is. Its the PROMISED PUNISHMENT FOR NOT DOING AS YOU ARE TOLD TO DO.

originally posted by: yuppa

originally posted by: Heresiarch
a reply to: yuppa

I am not interested in a link. I do my own interpretations. The fact that you can look at this evidence and not care, still follow Paul makes me not take you seriously.

Is your faith so shakey that you cannot even peruse a alternate view? I said what you said was BASICALLY what JESUS SAID TO BE LIKE TO OTHERS.

Also IF you are doing the things Jesus said to do you are following the Law and not CURSED by th e CONSEQUENCES OF NOT DOING SO. Thats what the curse of the law is. Its the PROMISED PUNISHMENT FOR NOT DOING AS YOU ARE TOLD TO DO.

Don't think I didn't notice your sad cheap shot at my faith because I don't rely on others interpretations because I have my own mind and by default more faith than someone who relies on an other man to do it for him. I believe in the Holy Spirit so much that it would be an insult if I didn't only rely on the Holy Spirit as my guide.

So basically you are threatening me with curses and punishment, and throwing in an insult, and disguising it (poorly) as scripture talk.

I don't think you are to be taken seriously. You seem a step or two behind

originally posted by: troubleshooter
Jesus and later Paul say clearly that it is not 'good works' but a changed 'spirit' that is the state of the person of faith.

The external exhibition of 'works' have no value in themselves except that they arise from a new 'creature/creation'.

Grace is the basis on which the human spirit comes to be in union with the Spirit which is this new 'creature/creation'.

I challenge you to produce any scripture where Jesus says the Laws of Torah (not to be confused with rabbinical law) which are from God are not to be followed.

You spew lies by saying Jesus himself taught this false doctrine of grace. He didn't teach it and fought against it.

By your fruits you will know them

originally posted by: Heresiarch
Faith without works

There is no Faith without works!
If the 'works' are not in evidence, neither is the Faith!
It's like "I Love you!"
Don't tell me, show me!

Faith is an unconditional Virtue of unconditional Love!

True, unconditional Love is ALWAYS recognized by It's unconditional Virtues; Compassion, Empathy, Sympathy, Gratitude, Humility, Charity (charity is never taking more than your share of anything, ever!), Honesty, Happiness, Faith...
ALWAYS!

That means that if you are existing in the state of unconditional Love, as Jesus taught and demonstrated, that anything that you do will be from this state.
From the state of Enlightenment/unconditional Love, you cannot but be in the state of 'Faith' (Knowledge)!

And if your life does not exhibit all these Virtues, the 'words/beliefs' (vanity) mean nothing... "...whited sepulchers... as the empty tinkling of brass..."!

Don't tell me, show me! *__-

a reply to: namelesss

Indeed, faith without works is DEAD.

Dead = doesn't exist in this world

Absolutely true. James was definitely addressing the false doctrine of Paul. Who else was teaching, at that time, that faith ALONE saves?

Nobody but Paul. Paul is the only one who teaches this false doctrine. Not Jesus or the Apostles.

There are a maximum number of 12 Apostles. The vision of new Jerusalem in Revelation states this while using the #12 so many times that the only reasonable conclusion is that John had the foresight to code into his book of Revelation that Paul is NOT an Apostle, so that his book would be used and we could figure it out.

Paul vs the 12 Apostles is the second act of the New Testament.

Which side are you on?

a reply to: namelesss

DeadSeaScrollsDeception

This is a link to a book that will take you through the dead sea scrolls discovery and the revelations contained in it chronicling James vs Paul.

It's interesting to say the least and you can navigate to the dead sea scrolls themselves if you want to.

Paul is the "wicked priest" and "spouter of lies"

James is the "teacher of righteousness."

All you have to do is read the New Testament and it becomes evident that we have all been lied to for 2000 years and the foundation of Pauline Christianity is lies and deception, anti-Semitism and the literal forsaking of God's Law is church doctrine.

Faith is NOT what saves us in Jesus teachings and just look at the "fruits" of Pauline Christianity and what you will find is disgusting.

Death to Pauline Christianity

Blessed be James the Righteous

It is beyond dispute by anyone who doesn't possess the lying tongue that Paul can be proven an opponent of the leadership of the first Messianic church after the Ascension. That means that the 12 Apostles who were actually chosen by Yeshua himself must be rejected in order to follow the false doctrine of grace. And we would also have to believe that Yeshua changed his mind on who he wanted to lead his church AFTER he died. So it is not like anyone but Paul and allegedly maybe a few other people are able to confirm that the Ascended Messiah appeared to Saul on his way to Damascus. But we do have a good amount of scripture that has the Messiah warning to beware of people like Saul.

Matthew 24:23

"Then if anyone says to you, Look! 'Here is the Messiah!' or 'There he is' do not believe it. For false messiahs and false prophets will appear and produce great signs and omens, to lead astray, if possible, even the elect. Take note, I have told you beforehand. So if they say to you, 'Look! He is in the wilderness' do not go out. If they say ' Look, he is in the inner rooms,' do not believe it. For as the lightning comes from the east and flashes as far as the west, so will be the coming of the Son of Man. Wherever the corpse is, the vultures will gather.

And gather they did. The name of that chapter is the desolating sacrilege.

It describes Paul perfectly. It was a warning to his chosen Apostles about how false prophets would show up to deceive even the ELect. And deceive they did.

Paul claims to have seen Yeshua out in the wilderness in secret.

Paul claims the ability to do miracles, he produced what could easily be considered signs and omens. The Catholic church is both a sign and an omen in many regards. They became the Elect. The Holy Roman Catholic empire, its hero the false prophet Saul

If you refuse to listen to the warnings made by the Messiah himself to his chosen Apostles that are in the New Testament and you choose to follow the first false prophet that bursts on the scene with a message of just believe, and you will be saved, and the Apostles rejected him, in scripture, you are one of the least astute, least thinking people on earth, and the most easily duped people in society.

Heresiarch.

Much better. No abuse. Applause.

(Guess your complaints to the mods about me fell on deaf ears. [Logical assumption]).

Never the less, a post without direct offence. Congrats.

And not one of his followers will even discuss this with you because they have never even thought it through or have and have decided to ignore the evidence and just keep rolling the dice. The general bulk of Christianity is so full of &$#:-) it makes me literally sick. They actually think they are being righteous by disobeying the teachings of Jesus. Most of the New Testament is Paul's rambling and complaining. And him assuring every one he isn't lying. He swares to God, one of the signs that Yeshua says will assure you that someone is of the evil one, and you STILL believe Paul.


Come on DISRAELI, you just gonna give up?

How do you reconcile all this?

I noticed you spend most of your attention on explaining the intricacies of Paul and his alleged non-legalist approach to religion. But the reason you must do this is because it is the ultimate scam and you NEED it to make sense, something it never comes close to doing.

His crappy words are meaningless drivel from the pen of a political agitator. They aren't profoun, rythmic or even sensible.

Mysoginy, anti-Semitism, anti-God, pro slavery, pro hierarchical leadership over equality, hypocritical and sometimes just outright lies are what is in them. If they were the true teachings of Yeshua then Paul is literally unnecessary. They are not, and that is why you like them.

Heresiarch

Passive aggressiveness is going backwards. Move forward man. Forward

I find it impossible to believe that anyone who has read the New Testament (and old) and studied it to not figure this out. I look back at myself and think, "damn you were blind" in my MANY years of bible study that I didn't see this. The reason I didn't see it is because I had never read it like a book straight through. I spread it out over 365 days, old and new everday, and it develops late in my noted but I had a moment where I was like, ok, Paul is a fraud.

Confirmation was easy. Even Thomas Jefferson who whatever his religious beliefs was no doubt a learned man, said Paul was the first person in history to corrupt the teachings of Jesus, so I was not the first person to figure out independently that this guy was not who he claimed to be.

That honor goes to the Apostles, they were the first people recorded in history rejecting Saul's false doctrine.

They mostly all died horrible deaths and Saul just kind of dissapears. Witness protection, Roman style.

a reply to: coomba98

Is that the best you can do is attack me for telling the truth because you think telling the truth is "passive aggressive" ?

It isn't, and I am not. I am just exercising my right to do so and not get crucified or inquisitioned. And you can thank everyone but the church for that.

originally posted by: Heresiarch
a reply to: coomba98

Is that the best you can do is attack me for telling the truth because you think telling the truth is "passive aggressive" ?

It isn't, and I am not. I am just exercising my right to do so and not get crucified or inquisitioned. And you can thank everyone but the church for that.

Like I said a week or so ago.

Im really concerned about your mental health. You should really see a shrink/psychiatrist.

Not even most religious people are so far into religion to the point of fundamentalism.

Not being offensive or what not just really really concerned about your well being.

originally posted by: coomba98

originally posted by: Heresiarch
a reply to: coomba98

Is that the best you can do is attack me for telling the truth because you think telling the truth is "passive aggressive" ?

It isn't, and I am not. I am just exercising my right to do so and not get crucified or inquisitioned. And you can thank everyone but the church for that.

Like I said a week or so ago.

Im really concerned about your mental health. You should really see a shrink/psychiatrist.

Not even most religious people are so far into religion to the point of fundamentalism.

Not being offensive or what not just really really concerned about your well being.

Let's all notice that you can not address a single point that I have made, and are going to attack me by feigning concern for my mental health, it's a desperate attempt to make me look crazy because you know that I am correct. You aren't going to fool anyone.

a reply to: coomba98

You are not even going to be taken seriously with that strategy. You are truly desperate and the sick thing about it is your trying to portray yourself as neutral. You clearly are not on the side of truth, you are just worried about the least path of resistance.

I have more of a mind for exposing the corruption that has been fed to everyone as the message of Christ, which is really the message of someone who claimed to have heard a voice in the desert. That is called either lying or scizophrenia, not being called by God.

But by all means, attack MY sanity.

a reply to: Heresiarch

Im just putting out there my concern.

Someone who preaches that they dont care about other peoples feeling and calling people liers and their either deceived or a deciver... the list goes on.

All with a stubburness and refusal to learn or accept others beliefs.

This is quiet concerning. Especially when your a religious fundamentalist.