Faith without works and the error of grace

originally posted by: HarryJoy
Paul clearly preached that believers need to have good works present in their lives .

Gal 6:9 ,10 and let us not be weary in well-doing for in due season we shall reap if we faint not as we have therefore opportunity let us do good unto all men especially unto them who are of the household of faith.

Ok those verses alone show that Paul promoted the idea of good works and there are many others too. I will say though that trying to make all the pieces of the bible fit together into a perfect picture is beyond the ability of my little mind.

Actually, Paul taught that works of Law or good works is unnecessary to salvation. You are not being completely honest. The so called Gospel of the kingdom of grace is NOT what Jesus said or taught and contradicts Jesus.

So, no, Paul didn't teach this. He taught against it.(good works)

The Law is curse, remember? Let's see what Jesus said about the Law. That it is to be fulfilled. Why would Jesus have us fulfill a curse? Or a Law that is dead?


He both wouldn't and didn't.

But the fact that Paul, in Galatians, takes an oath in God's name, even though Jesus forbid it in no uncertain terms, is proof that Paul is a fraud. You just can't wrap your head around it. Your words.

originally posted by: Heresiarch
Paul calls the Law a curse.

No he doesn't. What he says is that the Law announces a curse, as it does in Deuteronomy, which Paul quotes;
"Cursed be everyone who does not abide by all things written in the book of the law, and do them" (Galatians ch3 v10, Deuteronomy ch27 v26).
The phrase "the curse of the Law" referes to the curse which the Law has declared.

What he calls the Law is "our schoolmaster" until Christ came, preparing the way for Christ (Galatians ch5 v24).

OP. I think you think you know something that in reality, you don't know. Put in another few years of earnest study, and you might understand what you're reading. Read the old testament, and the new. Pay attention, and tell me what comes first with the god of the bible. What does he put the greatest emphasis on? Belief, faith, trust, are always first with god.

What did the Jews in the wilderness get chastised the most for? Their unbelief. Not their works(that which is done from faith), but their unbelief. What did Jesus chastise the disciples for? Their lack of faith. Not their works. Their lack of faith. What did Jesus often praise in others? Their faith. Not what they did, but their faith. It's all over the new testament. You'd have to be near blind to read it, and not see it. Either that, or so legalistic that you refuse to hear it. Which I suspect is the case.

Another thing. Do tell me what works are? Works have already been defined in this thread by another poster, so if you were paying attention to him, it should be an easy question. If you truly understand works, you'll understand why faith comes first, and works will not save you according to the bible.

All I'm saying is, you're going off on a tangent without understanding what you're reading as a whole. It doesn't matter so much whether you're a Christian or not from my perspective. It matters that you study ALL of it, and then draw your conclusions. Reading by itself won't do it. You must study it. Peter had something to say about Paul. Maybe you should read it.

a reply to: DISRAELI


Everything Paul says in Galatians and anywhere is a provable lie. If for no other reason than he takes an oath in the name of God in writing. Jesus said anyone who does this "Is of the evil one."

Paul is a fraud.

a reply to: Klassified


I would have to disagree with you. I have done more than enough to prove my point. With the Bible, a book that I understand apparently better than you. I don't make excuses for Paul and you do is the difference. I tell it like it is and don't kiss a**. I expose the lies that you endorse.

You don't actually have grace and life in the spirit if you aren't living it. Some people can say the words without actually having the state. We see plenty of them in the church all the time. They're the lukewarm. They're the ones who will say "lord! Lord!" and be told "I never knew you." They treat it like a get out of sin free card.

True grace is a new state of life as much as a state of salvation. A person who live in the spirit exhibits works as a part of that life.

Doing works without grace is empty.

originally posted by: Heresiarch
a reply to: Klassified


I would have to disagree with you. I have done more than enough to prove my point. With the Bible, a book that I understand apparently better than you. I don't make excuses for Paul and you do is the difference. I tell it like it is and don't kiss a**. I expose the lies that you endorse.

Suit yourself then. You're just another in a long line that has read, but never studied your chosen subject.

a reply to: DISRAELI


Galatians 3:13

"Christ redeemed us from the curse of the Law by becoming a curse for us..."

Tell me again that Paul didn't call the Law a curse. Because he did, fact. He also claims Christ is a curse, that he became a curse... for us.

Christ and the Law both called curses by Paul in one sentence. Where did you think this was going to go?

a reply to: ketsuko

Agreed. Lots and LOTS of talk, little to no walk.

a reply to: Klassified

Oh so because I don't agree with your opinion I am the one who doesn't understand?

My position is supported by scripture. Scripture that you are insecure enough about to get frustrated and make a pathetic attempt at insulting me over. While I report the facts you can't do **** but state your opinion about those facts because your beliefs actually contradict Jesus and you have no argument. Just weak insults.

originally posted by: Heresiarch
Galatians 3:13
"Christ redeemed us from the curse of the Law by becoming a curse for us..."

I have already told you what "the curse of the Law" means, and I now tell you again.
It mean the curse which the law has declared, as Paul described in the previous verses.

The phrase "the speech of the President" does not mean the President IS a speech. It means the President HAS MADE a speech.
Similarly "the curse of the law" does not mean the law IS a curse. It means that the law HAS PRONOUNCED a curse.
And it has. You quoted that pronouncement yourself.

a reply to: Klassified

Even saying that I haven't studied my chosen subject is wrong. I have obviously done my homework, whether you agree with me or not. So you just showed your hand. You were bluffing.

a reply to: DISRAELI

Curse of the Law. Yes, that's saying that the Law is a curse. Yes, Paul said God's Law is a curse. And he believed it, he taught it.

You can only explain away so much. This is not one of those things, as he said it and wrote it.

a reply to: DISRAELI


You told me what YOU THINK it means. But that is not what he really meant, you are playing games with the english language to just to change the meaning of what he said because you know it is blasphemy.

How about taking it for what it means, exactly how it sounds. You know, the honest approach.

a reply to: Heresiarch
So you think that the phrase "the speech of the Prseident" means that the President IS a speech? Are you really so incapable of understanding what words mean?

I tell you again, "the curse of the Law" means the curse which the law announces.
He says that the law declares a curse on all those who don't obey all its commands.
You know that he is right, and that's what he is talking about.

a reply to: DISRAELI

Even claiming like you claim, that it PRONOUNCED a curse, is still saying God's Law pronounced a curse.

You are admitting that God's Law pronounced a curse, you are saying that God's Law IS in effect the cause of a curse. That would make it an actual curse, causing a curse is cursing.

a reply to: DISRAELI


I don't personally find the Law of God to be a curse, I don't know how hard it is to love God and love your neighbor for anyone else, I find it very easy a yoke. Paul thinks that it is just fine to forget the whole "love God" part and that it is sufficient to just love your neighbor.

To bad Jesus disagrees.

originally posted by: Heresiarch
Even claiming like you claim, that it PRONOUNCED a curse, is still saying God's Law pronounced a curse.

Yes, and you said the same thing yourself, in a previous post;

originally posted by: Heresiarch
But the only curse is in NOT obeying God's Law...

You and Paul are both referring to the declaration made in Deuteronomy.
You agree with Paul that the law does say this.

So Paul just says about the Law what you have just said about the Law.
If Paul was wrong to say so, then you were equally wrong to say so.

a reply to: DISRAELI


So which is it, does Paul say it and not mean it? Or does he just say it knowing he is contradicting himself?

Because he does say that Christ redeemed us from the CURSE OF THE LAW.

If he contradicts himself later or earlier it is not my problem, and supports what I say, that Paul is a fraud, a hypocrite. Because he definitely says the Law is a curse. Not just a burden, A CURSE. God's Law.

He is a blasphemer.

a reply to: DISRAELI

And what Paul was wrong to do is to call God's Law a curse. I have not done that, so I am not wrong to point out that he DOES do just that. You are not going to entrap me.