Faith without works and the error of grace

originally posted by: onequestion
a reply to: Heresiarch

Grace is not a scam by any means. Grace is what I call just in time engineering.

Right when you need it...

That's grace.

Tell it to someone who doesn't have a mountain of evidence proving you wrong.

a reply to: Heresiarch

I personally believe that in order to be a good person, you have to act like a good person.

People aren't 'good' or 'bad' , they do good or bad things.

Really, in that context good or evil acts. Saying bad instead of evil is more PC today.

All the little choices we make every day on how to behave towards others add up over a lifetime. Mostly the wrong choices we make are considered 'wrong' because we knew they were wrong beforehand but went ahead and did them anyway.

Thats how we go against what we know is right in our heart. You aren't a good or bad person, you are the sum total of the choices you have made, knowingly.

You can choose to do good or evil, its up to you.

originally posted by: intrptr
People aren't 'good' or 'bad' , they do good or bad things.

Maybe it is not what people do but who judges??
Life is happening and then a word arises (good/bad)- that is the judgement. Who notices that there is judgement? And can that judgement ever be true?
Notice that there is a seeing of the judgement.
Who or what is seeing and always knowing what is arising?

originally posted by: DISRAELI
An examination of what James understood by faith and works;
James; Faith and Works

What is understood is that faith without good works is DEAD. Not a complex matter, really, but I will thank you for participating and appreciate any thoughts on the matter you may have as someone who follows this...Paul. I personally don't care for the guy but for the sake of fairness welcome any attempts to explain your perspective.

a reply to: Itisnowagain

Maybe it is not what people do but who judges??

Its most definitely how people behave (especially toward others), their acts, their be-attitudes.

Thats pretty clear. One can believe or profess anything they like, rubber meets road in how they behave.

The judgement comes later at the end of each life.

a reply to: Itisnowagain

Oh, sorry. I get your question…

Notice that there is a seeing of the judgement.
Who or what is seeing and always knowing what is arising?

We are given to know what is right in our heart (read that: through the 'conduit' of our soul… from within). Thats how we know. The choices we have made are all being recorded in our brains, real time.

Most people know what they should and should not be doing. Call it innate, but every time we screw up, just before we do, theres this little still, quiet voice inside… nu-uh-uh, our conscience is reminding us, "you shouldn't be doing that".

a reply to: Heresiarch

I know the truth.

a reply to: Heresiarch
In the second chapter of his New Testament letter, James asks the famous awkward question;
“What does it profit…if a man says he has Faith but has not works?” (ch2 v14)

We know from the rest of the letter that James values Faith highly- this was clear from the opening verses.
But this question is not addressed at the man who has Faith.
It is addressed at the man who says he has Faith, which is not the same thing.
So the following question, “Can his Faith save him?”, really means “Can this merely spokenFaith save him?”

In the previous chapter, James was explaining the need to be “doers” of the Word, not hearers only.
It seems to me that he’s making a similar point in this chapter, that we need to be “doers” of the Faith, not speakers only.
He illustrates the difference in the next two verses;
If you want someone to be warm and clothed, the “warming and clothing” which is merely said is completely ineffective- “does not profit”.
The intention isn’t fulfilled until the “warming and clothing” is actively done.
If we follow this analogy through, it leads to the conclusion that merely spoken Faith is ineffective, that Faith needs to be “done”.
So that must be the real meaning of the statement in v17; merely spoken Faith (“Faith by itself”) does not bring life (“is dead”). The only kind of Faith that brings life is the ”done” Faith, the activated Faith which James calls “works”.

V18. which begins with a “But”, is not an objection to the previous verse, but another answer to v14’s “man who says he has Faith”.
“You say that you have Faith, but you don’t have works…
But someone will say…”
There’s disagreement among scholars about the speakers in this verse.
In one theory, there are three different viewpoints on the table.
There is the original spokesman for Faith, the “someone” who advocates works, and the middle ground taken by James at the end of the verse.
That’s implied, for example, by the RSV translation, which punctuates the first part of the verse as a separate speech.

One objection to this approach is that the hypothetical spokesman for works doesn’t really get answered.
In any case, the viewpoint expressed by “someone” is not the logical opposite of v14; he is NOT saying “I have works without Faith”.
His argument really extends to the end of the verse, and it’s taking the form;
“You say that you have Faith-
But I have Faith as well.
The difference between us is that I can prove it, and you can’t”.
The contrast given is between showing Faith without [CHORIS] works, and showing Faith by means of [EK] works.
So the function of “works” here is to be the evidence for the existence of Faith, and what James is offering is another reason why “saying” should be followed by “doing”.

V19 attacks the merely spoken Faith from a different angle.
Merely believing in the one God is not enough; even the demons know that, and it doesn’t do them any good.
But merely “believing that God exists” would not be an adequate definition of saving Faith anywhere else in the New Testament, either.
Admittedly Hebrews ch11 v6 says “Whoever would draw near to God must believe that he exists”, but even in Hebrews this is only the beginning.
The essential ingredient of the word Faith is trust, as that chapter of Hebrews is demonstrating, and this trust in God is what the demons cannot experience.

In the rest of the chapter, James claims to show that men are “justified by works”.
Yet the two episodes he quotes to illustrate this point are both cited in Hebrews ch11 as examples of Faith.

The first episode is Abraham’s obedient response to the command to sacrifice Isaac.
In Hebrews, this is an example of Faith, a because “he considered God was able to raise men even from the dead” (Hebrews ch11 v19).
He had received the promise of descendants through Isaac, and his obedience implied a confidence that the action would not nullify the promise.
For James, the point is that his Faith was “completed” by his works- that is, he did not just believe, but acted on his belief.

The second episode is Rahab of Jericho, assisting the scouts who had been sent out by Joshua.
In Hebrews (ch11 v31) this is another example of Faith.
For James, though, she was “justified by works”, presumably because she did not just believe in the God of Israel but acted on that belief.
He repeats the claim that “Faith without works” is dead (v26), and adds the very suggestive analogy that “works” animates Faith in the same way that the human spirit animates the body.
Perhaps the point is that the presence of life reveals itself by movement.

How can the same two episodes be examples of “Faith” in Hebrews, and examples of “works” in James?
I think we come back to the point that Faith hinges upon trust.
But “trust” is another quality which needs to be done, not merely said.
The man who walks across a bridge is showing a much more genuine trust than the man who says “I
believe that bridge will hold my weight”, and stays where he is.
These two episodes are examples of “trustful action”.
But Hebrews gives them a label (“Faith”) putting emphasis on the fact that “trust is acting”.
While the label used in James gives the emphasis that “trust is acting”.
“Works” is the action of trust, by which Faith is made real and “complete”.
Nevertheless, both writers are making the same point- that genuine trust involves walking across that bridge.

In the middle of his discussion on Abraham’s obedience, James claims (v23) that it fulfilled the scriptural declaration;
“Abraham believed God and it was reckoned to him as righteousness” (Genesis ch15 v6).
Paul is using the same verse, of course, for his own teaching on Faith and works found in Romans and Galatians.
It’s noteworthy, and notorious, that Paul and James make opposite-sounding statements about this verse.
Paul relies upon it for his claim that Abraham was justified by his Faith.
Yet James is using the same verse as part of his argument that men are justified by their works

However, we mustn’t allow this verbal contradiction to prevent us noticing the extent of their agreement.
They both agree on the importance of that verse.
They both appreciate the significance of the fact that Abraham believed in the promise God made him.
In short, they agree on the starting-point of Abraham’s righteousness.

James is not going to accept that Abraham was justified “by Faith alone”.
Presumably this is because “Faith by itself”, in this discussion, has meant merely spoken Faith, which James has been condemning as insufficient, not the real thing.
His argument has been that genuine Faith needs to be carried forward into action.
But that’s exactly what Abraham has been doing, if we take these two Genesis chapters together.
In ch15, he believed God’s promise, which was the foundation of his righteousness.
In ch22, that belief was carried forward into obedience, in the matter of Isaac. That’s when he “crossed the bridge”.
That’s why James says that Abraham’s obedience “fulfilled” the scripture of the earlier chapter.
That’s when his Faith was actualised, “made complete”.
“Works” is not an alternative to Faith, in this teaching, but the active ingredient of genuine Faith.

a reply to: DISRAELI


That almost addresses that one issue. Almost. And there are many, many more. Even that I have yet to mention, but it really isn't necessary if you are using common sense.

But thanks.

originally posted by: onequestion
a reply to: Heresiarch

I know the truth.

Were have I heard this before?

a reply to: DISRAELI

It's pretty much impossible for me to take Paul seriously after knowing that he despised the 12 Apostles and talks trash about them in his letters. That's asking me to believe that the Apostles and Jesus are inferior to Paul, and I will never do that. Who would?

originally posted by: intrptr
Most people know what they should and should not be doing. Call it innate, but every time we screw up, just before we do, theres this little still, quiet voice inside… nu-uh-uh, our conscience is reminding us, "you shouldn't be doing that".

No matter what happens - it is what is meant to happen. The voice is just another happening that just happens - until it does not. That voice is just pretending that it could be different than it is - it is all the divine expression.

a reply to: Itisnowagain

No matter what happens - it is what is meant to happen.

No we do have a choice. There is such a thing as free will.

To keeping it simple, For instance…

…say you have an addiction to cigarettes or alcohol. Even though you are addicted and the compulsion of the habit 'forces' you to have another cigarette or drink, you know it is wrong and could choose to not smoke or drink in that moment.

But we give in and go ahead anyway… or not. Thats the choice presented to us and the decision we knowingly make one way or the other.

We are faced with many should and should't choices on a daily basis, our behavior and actions is where the free will comes in. We choose one road, one path one step (or another) all day long, our whole lives.

originally posted by: Itisnowagain

originally posted by: intrptr
Most people know what they should and should not be doing. Call it innate, but every time we screw up, just before we do, theres this little still, quiet voice inside… nu-uh-uh, our conscience is reminding us, "you shouldn't be doing that".

No matter what happens - it is what is meant to happen. The voice is just another happening that just happens - until it does not. That voice is just pretending that it could be different than it is - it is all the divine expression.

And every so often, if we are to believe scripture, God tests our faith. Sometimes that involves going against what is easy, and sometimes that means rejecting a false prophet. As a matter of fact, Jesus addresses this issue himself in his letters to the churches in Asia.

Paul writes himself

"This you know, that all those who are in Asia have turned from me."

Which is in 2Timothy 1:15

That is an admission that he was rejected by the Apostles and all those who were in Asia. But does Jesus correct the Apostles in Revelation for rejecting his "apostle" Paul? No, in fact he specifically congratulated the Ephesians for rejecting those who say they are apostles, but are not. Nobody can say that this is talking about anyone except Paul,he is the only one who fits the description. Nobody else claims to be an apostle.

originally posted by: intrptr
We are faced with many should and should't choices on a daily basis, our behavior and actions is where the free will comes in. We choose one road, one path one step (or another) all day long, our whole lives.

The idea of 'should' and the idea of 'shouldn't' brings dis - ease. Life is happening as it is.

Life is heavy when 'you' believe there is a choice. Keep choosing if you believe there is a choice but you will be good one minute and bad the next and so will everything you encounter be. Free yourself and everything by realizing the truth - there is no one doing anything. Life is happening.

a reply to: Itisnowagain

Keep choosing if you believe there is a choice but you will be good one minute and bad the next and so will everything you encounter be.

We cannot be good or bad, only choose to do good or 'bad' acts or behaviors. The choice is ours. Everything else is an excuse to limit our culpability and guilt. Includng denial.

S*** happens, is not a plea. My plea is guilty, whats yours?

Paul clearly preached that believers need to have good works present in their lives .

Gal 6:9 ,10 and let us not be weary in well-doing for in due season we shall reap if we faint not as we have therefore opportunity let us do good unto all men especially unto them who are of the household of faith.

Ok those verses alone show that Paul promoted the idea of good works and there are many others too. I will say though that trying to make all the pieces of the bible fit together into a perfect picture is beyond the ability of my little mind.

originally posted by: HarryJoy
Paul clearly preached that believers need to have good works present in their lives .

Gal 6:9 ,10 and let us not be weary in well-doing for in due season we shall reap if we faint not as we have therefore opportunity let us do good unto all men especially unto them who are of the household of faith.

Ok those verses alone show that Paul promoted the idea of good works and there are many others too. I will say though that trying to make all the pieces of the bible fit together into a perfect picture is beyond the ability of my little mind.

True, and he goes into more detail in ch5;
The Spirit and the flesh

All these people are teaching, though they put the emphasis in different ways, that it is necessary to have faith in God and to do what he wants, but that the faith comes first in order of time.

a reply to: DISRAELI

Actually, Paul's false doctrine about grace is not even close to the teachings of Jesus. I would have to say that if you are trying to lump anyone other than Paul into a group and say they are all teaching the same thing is as untrue as it gets. I have proven a number of ways of determining if Paul's claims are valid, chief among those ways is to compare them to the words of Jesus.

When done without Pauline bias and even with you can't honestly say that Paul is teaching the same thing as James without being dishonest. The beef between Paul and the Apostles is real and documented by both sides, and we know from Revelation that Jesus doesn't side with Paul. Nor is he neutral.

a reply to: DISRAELI

Paul calls the Law a curse. But the only curse is in NOT obeying God's Law, which is fulfilled in 2, never 1, commandments. Leaving out the GREATEST commandment is a diabolical attempt at capitalizing off anti-Semitism and lying in Christ's name. We know that it was no minor oversight by Paul because of the lies that Paul tells us again and again. He left it out so that he could get people to sin by disobeying the 2 commandments that Jesus ACTUALLY simplified it down to. Paul's re-simplification takes glory from God and says it is not necessary to fulfill the Law. It's a lie and contradicts Jesus.

How do you not see this? You do know the Bible, yet would rather make excuses for Paul than just admit that he is a fraud?