Proof: Advanced Ancient Indian Civilization existed

Originally posted by Indigo_Child
No, the age of the Earth as thought to be today, is 4.3-4.5 billion years old. According to the Vedas, the current human civilization began 4.3 billion years ago. There has been approx 2 billion years of life on this planet(306*7) There will be 6 more after us. The time cycle of a civilization is further sub-divided into a cycles of four ages: Golden, Silver, Bronze and Iron. In the Iron age(the kali age) there is a lot of corruption, materialism and greed and very little spirituality. This is why the "Indian gods" are no longer present in human society.

The 14 different civilizations of Earth are not specified to be human, in fact as I was reading the other day, all of the different kinds of civilizations that will rule this planet are different species. I would imagine the time system is caliberated to evolutionary time scales. Humans still have millions of years to go before they are destroyed(thank god for that, eh

) and 427,000 years to go before they leave the iron age. However, one day of Brahma is already over(4.32 billion years) and the next six civilizations will appear in it's night, basically in a phase where the Earth will begin to die.

so each civilization after us will be less advanced than the one before???

also, with this theory or proof of yours, what does it say about religion???

is the india religion (sry i don't know what it is) the "truth"???

is christianity the "truth"???

in this theory or proof, what happins when a person dies???

thanks...

No religions today are the "truth" but they all have some element of truth.The religion of the Indus civilization is called "Hinduism" in contemporary times. However, the word "Hindu" does not appear anywhere in the ancient Indian literature.

At that time it was called Santana dharma which means the true duty and it's basic tenents is that the truth is one but we all call it by different names. It's teaches absolute monism, that the entire universe is part of an absolute consciousness or paraatma or parabrahman. It's practial form is called yoga, which means linking to the absolute, through meditation and this is also called rememberance; i.e. remembering that we are one. It says we are all divine beings, atamans, and all microcosms of the absolute. That we are present in the universe and the universe is present within us. This is sumrised in a sanskrit phrase "Tat vam asi" which means "thou art also this" that we are also god.

Santana Dharma emphasizes the importance of science for man and explains the universe, it's life, it's laws and the practical applications of phenomena in poetic form and celeberates it in the form of song and dance. It is a fusion of spirituality and science. Yet, it calls it maya, an illusion and [bl]eela, a cosmic play. That is that the physical universe is a place where we incarnate to experience existence in all it's facets, forms and modalities from the simplest to the most complex, and follow a natural order of progression(evolution) till we reunite with the source, which is the only truth. By it's very nature the physical universes are dualities and therefore cannot be truths, for they are all relative. The truth is the non-dual universe and thus the purpose of the Brahman(the soul who seeks liberation) is to transcend space and time and and become the non-dual mind.

In other words, the soul is on a forwards journey to his destination(the source) yet he doesn't know where he is going. He stops many times on the way and incarnates as many forms of life, on many planets, in many dimensions, in many universes and learns different and bigger truths, then continues on through space-time, trying to understand where he is going from all the truths he learns, trying to make order our of chaos, trying to set out a concrete path and one day he finds it and in an instant realises he always knew it.

We have, according the Vedas evolved from the microorganisms to the intelligent organisms we are today through a succession of 840,000 forms of "inferior" life. Krishna said in the Bhagvad Gita, that we will continue to reincarnate and be subject to laws of karma(cause and effects) till we are not liberated from the cycle of birth and death(moksha)

That is when we are free of all desires and have recognized that the physical universe is an illusion. The paths to salvation or moksha are three-fold; by dharma or duty; by gyana or knowledge; by bhakti or devotion. Dharma is your duty to society(others); to sustain; protect; enlighten - to become it's teacher; like Krishna, Jesus, Buddha and Guru Nanak. Gyana is your knowledge; to learn about life and the universe; to understand it's holographic nature, it's laws and it's perfection and how you relate to it; like Einstein, Tesla, Heisenberg and the yogi and rishis. Bhakti is your devotion; your ability to be compassionate, charitable and love unconditionally; like Mother Theresa.

In other words the religion of ancient India was pure spirituality.

[edit on 4-2-2005 by Indigo_Child]

so, if this theory is true, when i die i can expect to be re-incarnated in another form on another planet in another universe???

and this will continue until i reach my destiny???

cool

Originally posted by they see ALL
so, if this theory is true, when i die i can expect to be re-incarnated in another form on another planet in another universe???

and this will continue until i reach my destiny???

cool

I cannot really say with any degree of certainty where you are incarnated. I would, however, think that if you have not learnt the lesson on Earth that you originally incarnated to learn,you would be reborn here again. Where you are born depends on your karma. You could think of karma like credits and higher planets require higher credits. You accure these credits through your evolution. I think this discussion is becoming a bit too religious/spiritual now. Let's concentrate on the actual society itself.

Originally posted by Indigo_Child
I cannot really say with any degree of certainty where you are incarnated. I would, however, think that if you have not learnt the lesson on Earth that you originally incarnated to learn,you would be reborn here again. Where you are born depends on your karma. You could think of karma like credits and higher planets require higher credits. You accure these credits through your evolution. I think this discussion is becoming a bit too religious/spiritual now. Let's concentrate on the actual society itself.

ok...

thanks...

lets get back to business...

BTW great thread...

interesting story I came across today:

Tsunami Throws Up India Relics

The tsunami has uncovered relics in Mahabalipuram

The relics have been buried under the sand for centuries
The deadly tsunami could have uncovered the remains of an ancient port city off the coast in southern India.

Archaeologists say they have discovered some stone remains from the coast close to India's famous beachfront Mahabalipuram temple in Tamil Nadu state following the 26 December tsunami.

They believe that the "structures" could be the remains of an ancient and once-flourishing port city in the area housing the famous 1200-year-old rock-hewn temple.

Three pieces of remains, which include a granite lion, were found buried in the sand after the coastline receded in the area after the tsunami struck.

That is not very far from where I used to live.

Maybe next time I go there, if there is something left of it, I could get some info on this.

Thanks for the article ww.

Surf

The Knowledge religion:

In this post I am going to expound further on the Vedic civilization and how it was structured. I don't feel it is necessary to prove that this civilization was technologically advanced anymore, as the sum of all the proof provided already should speak for that itself that it indeed was. I will now concentrate on simply providing more knowledge about this civilization now - for those that are interested.

Santana Dharma or Hinduism is a knowledge based religion. It covers all fields of knowledge. Science, philosophy, laws, economics, politics, history medicine, logic, mathematics, engineering, strategy, metaphysics, astronomy, cosmology, geology, consciousness, biology, psychology, sociology, sexuality and all the esoteric sciences. Knowledge is the highest, most complete, most grand concept of life. These are imparted by the Vedas(knowledge) which is forms the religion of Hinduism. The Vedas are the supreme authority and are eternal and were revealed through a divine and superhuman source to Indian Rishis who became one with the Brahman. All other sciences of India are derived from this.

There are 4 Vedas:

1. Rig Veda: 21 sections
2. Yajur Veda: 109 sections
3. Sama Veda: 1000 sections
4. Atharva Veda: 50 sections

Each Vedas consists of the following:

Mantra-Sahmitas: Hymns
The Brahmanas: Explanations of Mantras or Rituals
The Aryanyakas: Philosophy of the rituals
The Upanishads: The knowledge

The Mantra Samhita are poetic hymns addressed to god and his various manifestations and to demi gods both subjective and objective.

The Bramana are explanations of using the Mantras for the ritual sacrifice or Yajna. The sacrifice is an offering prepared of sweets, vegetables, woods, herbs and perfumes and butter that is thrown into a burning fire during the recitation of Mantras. This is conducted on a specially constructed sacrificial altar that is based on geometric principles.

The Aryanyakas: These give the philosophical interpretations of the rituals and explains what they are used for. They are concerned with meditations and prayers.

The Upanishads: These are the most important parts of the Vedas. They deal with the subtle and profound knowledge of the soul and it's identity and the supreme consciousness. They form the Vedanta(the end of knowledge) of the Vedas

There are four up-vedas or subsidary Vedas:

1. Ayur Veda: The science of life and health. It forms the schools of medicine, psyotherapy and surgery. Also said to belong to this is the Kamasutra or the science of sex.
2. Dhanurveda: The science of war. It forms the schools of military strategy, both offensive and defensive, martial arts, weapon arts, missiles and projective weapons and advanced weapons.
3. Gandharva Veda: The science of music and dance. It forms the school of arts, theatre, musical instruments.
4. Arthasastra: The science of polity. It forms the school of politics and economics.

The Vedangas

There are six Angas or explanatory limbs, to the Vedas

The Siksha(teachings) of Maharshi Panini: Phonetics
Vyakarana of Maharshi Panini: Sanskrit Grammar
The Chhandas of Pingalacharya: Prosody metre
The Nirukta of Yaska: Philosophy or etymology
The Jyotisha of Garga: Astronomy and astrology
The Kalpas: Srauta, Grihya, Dharma and Sulba
belonging to the authorship of various Rishis.
The Sulba Sutras are based on mathematical laws, from which the system of Vedic mathematics is derived.

The other Scriptures are the Manu Simriti(laws of man) here social laws are created for living according to the four ages: golden, silver, copper and Iron.

Itihas(History)

The main texts on History are:

The Valmiki-Ramayana
The Yogavasishtha
The Mahabharata and the Bhagvad Gita(which is also a standalone spiritual text)
The Harivamsa

The Purans.


The Puranas are further divided into 18 categories:

1.Vishnu Purana
2.Naradiya Purana
3.Srimad Bhagavata Purana
4.Garuda (Suparna) Purana
5.Padma Purana~
6.Varah Purana
7.Brahma Purana
8.Brahmanda Purana
9.Brahma Vaivarta Purana
10.Markandeya Purana
11.Bhavishya Purana(prophecies)
12.Vamana Purana
13.Matsya Purana
14.Kurma Purana
15.Linga Purana
16.Siva Purana
17.Skanda Purana
18.Agni Purana

There are eighteen further Upa-Puranas(subsidary) SanatKumara, Narasimha, Brihannaradiya, Sivarahasya, Durvasa, Kapila, Vamana, Bhargava, Varuna, Kalika, Samba, Nandi, Surya, Parasara, Vasishtha, Devi-Bhagavata, Ganesa and Hamsa.

The Purnas contain history, chronology of events, philosophy, cosmology and stories

The final six texts are based on the Vedanta portion of the Vedas and comprise the schools of rationalism and science.

The Six Darsanas or six schools of thought. They are composed of sutras, or formulas. They are designed as single sentence laws that condense huge volumes of knowldege as memory aids. Each sutra has Bhashya or a detailed exposition and eludication of it and each has a "Sutrakara" a Rishi who first systematized the schools of thought into Sutras or formulas. They are as follows.

The Nyaya founded by Gautama Rishi: The school of logic - It consists of 537 Sutras in five chapters on analytical thinking, scientific thinking, paradox and thought processes.

The Vaiseshika by Kanada Rishi: The school of physics - It consists of about 373 Sutras in twelve chapters on atoms, thermodynamics, chemistry, motion and gravity , energy, waves, mind, soul and space and time

The Sankhya by Kapila Muni: The school of philosopy

The Yoga by Patanjali Maharshi: The school of meditation - It consists of 194 Sutras in four part on breath control(pranayama), body, mind and soul, concentration and chanting.

The Purva Mimamsa by Jaimini

The Uttara Mimamsa or Vedanta by Badarayana or Vyasa

The Other sciences or texts from the Vedas were called the Kalas(arts) Some of those are:

Akshara-laksha By Sage Valmiki - 325 kinds of mathematics including modern geometry, algebra, trigonometry, physics or applied mathematics; minerology, hydels; the method of measuring air, heat, eletricity and geography. It is covered in 50 chapters. The first half deals with mathematics and the second half deals with the power sources.

Sabda Sastra By Kandika Rishi - It deals with sounds, echoes of moving and non-moving objects in creation. It also deals in five chapters with capturing or mechanically reproducing sounds, measuring their pitch, velocity, etc.

Lakshana Sastra - or the science of determining the sex in animate and inanimate creation

Shilpa Sastra by Sage Kashyapa - it consists of 22 chapters on engineering and archtecture. 307 varieties of Shilpas including 11 types of constructions like temples, palaces, halls etc., are detailed. .

Supa-Sastra by Sukesa - The science of cooking and deald with 108 varieties of preparations, from condiments and pickles to sweetmeats, cakes, puddings, and 3032 kinds of dishes meant for people living in different parts of the world are mentioned.

Malinee Sastra by Rishyasringa - the science o flower arrangements, making garlands, bouquets, hair-do’s in various styles for women, writing love messages on flower petals to convey to beloveds in codes. This work consists of 16 chapters.

The science of Kala or time by Lord Karttikeya. Its division into definite periods, their classification into auspicious and inauspicious moments, the deities that preside over each are dealt with in this work.

Dhatuvada by Aswini Kumara - 7 chapters on natural and artificial primary substances, their combinations and transmutations. Alchemy or converting copper into gold etc. is dealt with in this work.

Visha Sastra by Aswini Kumaras - The science poisons of 32 kinds of poisons, their properties, their preparations, effects and antidotes.
Chitrakarma Sastra by Bhina - The science of freehand drawing art. It consists of 12 chapters and expounds nearly 200 kinds of drawings. There is a section in which students are taught to recreate the figure of a person after seeing a single hair or nail or a bone of that person.

Malla Sastra by Malla - deals with 82 kinds of gymnastics and sports necessary for preservation of health and athletic activities and 24 kinds of infantry warfare where hand to hand combat is involved. This work consists of 3 parts.

Parakaya Pravesha by Valakhylias - the science of psyhcism, entering into one body from another body, and it teaches 32 kinds of Yogas or psychic powers and the eight-fold Siddhis (super-human capabilities), Anima, Mahima, Lagima(levitation)

Ratna Pariksha by Sage Vatsyayana - The science of testing gems (precious stones). His analysis shows 24 characteristics of gems or precious stones, natural and artificial ones; their forms, weights etc are discussed and classified into categories. 32 methods of testing them for genuineness are also described.

Shakti Tantra bySage Agastya - consisting of eight chapters in which Mulaprakriti, Maya etc., and 64 kinds of external Shaktis of bodies like those of the Sun, Moon and Air, Fire etc., are explained and their particular applications are also given. Atomic fission or nuclear science appears to form part of this science.

Soudamini Kala by Sage Matanga - the science of photography, television and scanning. Also taught is the science of photographing interiors of mountains, earth and space.

The science of clouds by Sage Atri. This work deals with 12 kinds of clouds, their characteristics, 12 kinds of rains, 64 kinds of lightnings, 32 varieties of thunderbolts etc.

The Yantra Sarawana and Vyaamnika Shatra by Bharadwaja(we all know this one) - Explans 339 types of vehicles useful in travelling on land, 783 kinds of boats and ships to be used on water and 101 varieties of airships, by use of the Mantra, Tantra, and artificial means and those used by semi-divine beings like Gandharvas etc., are also explained.

Amsu Bodhini by Maharishi Bhardwaja -In it are mentioned the various kinds of planets, the different kinds of light and heat which these planetary bodies possess and radiate.

It also gives us detailed descriptions of the various instruments and machinery by the help of which their phenomena may be seen and analyzed, and the different kinds of gadgets by which their forces, such as light, darkness, heat, velocity, colour and electricity may by attracted.

I believe that much of what the Indian culture refers to in its most sacred texts has to do with Atlantis and Eden. The birth place of human civilization.

Moreover, I do believe you are right in asserting that the ancient cultures are now under water somewhere in the Indian Ocean and nearby.

I have found a website by a highly credible professor that has utterly brillant theories about the exsistance and location of Atlantis/Eden, the birthplace of human civilization.

His body of evidence is VAST, and knows no cultural bounds.

I urge all of you to give his site a thorough read, and I believe that it will completely change your ideas about who we are as a human race. And where our true beginning lie.

ENJOY!

www.atlan.org...


[edit on 17-2-2005 by pantha]

But all you've done is dismissed everything from the first post. It does not seem like you read the entire thread which is full of information and facts. That is being neither honest with me or yourself. We all know how to doubt. We all do it. There is nothing new in doubting, you don't win a prize or gain more brownie points.

Anyhow, is it really difficult to assume that a civilization can be wiped out the world over by some kind of natural cataclysm? Not really, the recent tsunamis have shown us how quickly lands can be flattened.

Excellent point. It is easy to doubt just becuase the form of thinking is outside the box. Doubting is one thing, but trying to blatently disprove the entire story is another. All I have seen from some skeptics on this topic is doubt, claiming that it is all rubbish when Indigo has provided a strong case that needs to be debunked.

I asked around (we have a number of Indian students here at the university) and nobody knew this (and they were the "elite" you are talking about) and dismissed the ideas as wild fiction. They lived in India all their lives and have come here for the university. They will return to India with their degree.

Well if a student can just blatently dismiss it, then why dont many professional researchers from india. Most indians I know here in the states, dont even look into conspiracies or any mythological texts. Heck, they dont even know what a UFO is or deny its existence without even looking at the evidence. Its easy to doubt and deny but disproving is another story.

Just look at some of the UFO skeptics. Some provide counterproof to discredit and some ignorantly dont.

Indigo has presented one of the many possible case scenarios from what scholars and scientist from India have been suggesting. And he has presented a lot of information regarding it.

Excellent point. It is easy to doubt just becuase the form of thinking is outside the box. Doubting is one thing, but trying to blatently disprove the entire story is another. All I have seen from some skeptics on this topic is doubt, claiming that it is all rubbish when Indigo has provided a strong case that needs to be debunked.

Thank you Kyate and Amen as well. I thought I was the only one that was thinking the skeptics case has been more than lacking, they even managed to do the disappearing act on me. Ah well, what can you expect, just look at how much evidence there is. It's amazing how relatively unknown all this is. I I had the capacity, I would do a press release on it - "It's official, there were advanced technological civilizations in the past" and use the Vedic wisdom as a model for new civilization.

Not only does this prove that the Vedic civilization, with all the glitz and glamor of spacecraft and nuclear missiles existed, but extraterrestrials beings exist and so do other dimensions/realities where beings live and proof of the transmigration of souls and furthermore, the proof of god and origins of man.

It should further serve as a warning to modern civilization to stop war-monging and live in peace, or face the same fate that other civilizations in the past have.

What we need is a similar framework like that of vedic times of a knowledge and wisdom based society and we need to foster it by integrating consciousness sciences into our education and making us more aware of our role in the universe.

[edit on 20-2-2005 by Indigo_Child]

The Vedas state the universe is infinite and full of infinite universes. Yet also states that the universe is spherical and was created in finite time. It would be therefore impossiblle for the universe to be full of infinite universes, unless, they co-existed within a superverse of multiuniverses, a multidimensional universe.

Thats rather onto it, and quite frankly it has made my head hurt. With all respect and whatnot to a very sophisticated way of thinking the Vedas are.....is it possible that some of the stories were meant as entertainment? Like I guess they had to amuse themselves somehow during the TV and movieless nights of long ago. But other than that I like the ancient Indian texts....so much more imaginative than
Thou shall not
Thou should
thou will
Its God speaking and I mean it

Awesome information, I've always thought our modern society today wasn't the only advanced society that existed.
I believe also that we aren't the smartest 'advanced' society that ever was. In fact, far from and in many ways. Good read.

Do to the fact that most of the post seem to be personal attacks on Indigo, I did not read the entire thread so if what I am about to post is a repeat of someone else's idea I am sorry.

With that said here goes:

If we were to have a massive nuclear war right now it would destroy most of our civilization, all of our technology. The few people that did survive the war would be so busy trying to survive (hunting and gathering) that all the technology we now have would cease to exist.

Hundreds of years from now we would be living in small tribes telling stories of how our ancestors had wonderful flying machines, and so on and so forth.

Then thousands of years from now our descendent's would discover electricity, and medicines and start building machines as we have today, thinking they were the first humans to develop to that level of technology, and when they came across stories about our ancient civilization they would probably dismiss them as stories of fantasy as some people are doing today about the ancient Indian civilization that Indigo has brought up.

I for one believe that there were many more advanced civilizations in the past then were we are now, the problem is they destroyed themselves and the survivors passed there history on orally or written. Of course the machines themselves would not last thousands of years so we have no direct evidence, just the writings to go by.

I read in Discovery magazine Dec 2004 or Jan 2005 that if all humans disappeared today within 100 years nature would take over or cities and hide any trace that we lived, and in 5000 years all man made structures would be gone (destroyed) forever.

im only up to page 6 of reading this thread and the links, but its just been bought to my attention that the photo NASA took of the bridge connecting Bharata (India) and Sri Lanka was apparently a fake as in NASA denied releasing it
so not sure what that means. Maybe it was leaked from NASA and they are trying to cover it up? Or maybe it was fake. I am starting Sanskrit Lessons on Sunday at the Bhaktivedanta Mandhir in Watford

i'm really sorry if this was discussed ealier, but what does "quantum-dynamically" mean? as ion conrtrolling the aging etc "quantum-dynamically" thru meditation. Like i been googling, and can't find a definition of it. Does it basically mean by moving quanta of energy using the mind?
Or does it mean "by using the qauntum cumputer (the mind/brain) to effect energy flow and/or bodily functions (i.e. reproduction of cells in an optimum state)"??

thanks for explaining

Originally posted by Byrd

Originally posted by Indigo_Child
It's not a famous Indian article. As I said ancient Indian society was a bizaree dichatomy. This kind of knowledge was only for the elite. Further, Indians do know about their past history and accept it as fact.

We've had one Indian in here who tells you that this is not true, and you lecture him on his not knowing his own country and culture. I asked around (we have a number of Indian students here at the university) and nobody knew this (and they were the "elite" you are talking about) and dismissed the ideas as wild fiction. They lived in India all their lives and have come here for the university. They will return to India with their degree.

actually, it is well known that the Brahmins hoarded away knowedge of the Vedas for centuries, and also, the "elite" now, if they exist, are probably Acharyas, not some MBA wannabe who thinks an MBA in a foreign western uni is the ultimate sign of success. Trust, we get those sort of ppl writing to us all the time asking for "sponsorship". They are NOT elite, esp if they are going around calling themselves such. A real elite wouldnt do so. Some consider Brahmins elite, but being one myself, this is no indication of such, esp since its said that in the Kali Yuga, the sol called tradional elite, the Brahmins, will be less knowledgable about the Vedas than the Shudra (lowest caste) and this does appear to be the case form what i've seen.
Ive seen "educated" NRI's who don't know anything about these yantras etc, and met "uneducated" Gurus/Swamis (who are still shocked by "horseless carriages") who started talking to me (in gujurati) about magnetic keys etc.

p.s. i love using my speech marks,lol.

Originally posted by Byrd
If they'd had this technology and been visiting other places, they would have runways all over the globe and the people of the world would all speak some sort of derivative of Hindu.

actually Hindu is the name of the race not the language, and it was the name given to the peoples inhabiting the area around the river Indus when Alexander came to India. He called them Sindus, but apparently Greeks had problems with the letter "s" so it became Hindus.

And the language would not be "hindu" back then in 10,000b.c.e. being spread all over the world if Indigo's theory/proof is correct, but Sanskrit. And i think he's already discussed linguistic similaries of said language with other languages. But just to be sure, can anyone recommend a good book which discusses such a topic? Maybe my ;libary has a copy, so i can get some good solid evidence, assuming the author has done proper research for the book. I remeber when i did ancient greek in high school that i saw similarities in some of the Ancient greek letters and some gujurati letters which IS a derivative of Sanskrit, since Sanskrit was defininately in India, and Gujurati came from india.....lets at least agree on that! lol

[edit on 11/3/05 by el_illumbrato]

I am going to direct the focus to this site:

www.watcherwebsite.com...

There is ample evidence and the problem is how are the masses going to handle the information.

The dynamics of quantum/energy. You see the dynamics of consciousness is quantum and consciousness causes reality. In the vedic model, the human being has many bodies, including an energy body and the physical causes and conditions are caused by the state of his energy body. Hence, there is a direction connection between mind and the physical. Aging, is a physical process, and by meditation, the process can be controlled.

I have heard that the experts in meditation can even stop their heart beat and cause warmth or cold.

[edit on 11-3-2005 by Indigo_Child]

Originally posted by el_illumbrato
im only up to page 6 of reading this thread and the links, but its just been bought to my attention that the photo NASA took of the bridge connecting Bharata (India) and Sri Lanka was apparently a fake as in NASA denied releasing it

so not sure what that means. Maybe it was leaked from NASA and they are trying to cover it up? Or maybe it was fake. I am starting Sanskrit Lessons on Sunday at the Bhaktivedanta Mandhir in Watford

You mean Adam's bridge? I don't think I saw any articles from NASA, but I did see couple of Indian websites posting pictures, supposedly gotten from NASA.

Here is a link to Columbia Encyclopedia, and this site looks legit to me.

www.bartleby.com...

P.S. I don't believe that the bridge was constructed by Rama or Hanuman, but I do believe that the bridge was man made.

Surf