Deuteronomy 32:8 Yahweh a Son of God (The Most High)

Jesus call himself the Son of God, but...The Son of Man also.

My brain having an aneurysm.

So if he not a God, but a man, with Godly powers, that I'd have to shot him, because he Satan.

a reply to: Sassanid

I insult you because of your vein attitude and your self importance and I'll continue to rebuke those qualities. I laugh at your premise still, its based on one loose paragraph... Doesn't mean I don't remain open to the idea, which MANY people have laid good ground work for... a very long time before you or I posted here. Thought that you might pull some references from people like Mark S. Smith but it seems you want credit for their ideas, by making weird proof statements by yourself.

Hi, I am new to the forum, and this thread caught my attention (for research). So, following Sassanid's instructions I googled "Israel henotheism" and from the first article that popped up, I found this quote:

In fact, the people of Israel even adopted this name (El) as one of the names of the LORD. When Abram (later called Abraham) meets king Melchizedek of the Canaanite city of Salem, a priest of El Elyon (God Most High), the two of them treat El Elyon and Yahweh as one and the same (Genesis 14:17-24) (p. 3)

Source

I want to state that I am not a Christian, or religious, so some of Sassanid's criticisms cannot apply to me. Having read The Urantia Book (esoteric Christian text, containing new revelations) that speaks about (Machiaventa) Melchizedek and his religion, as it was taught to Abraham, I confirm the above quote as true. Interestingly, The Urantia Book mentioned that there was no God at the Mount Sinai when Moses got the commandments, but it was merely an active volcano, and he used this powerful natural occurrence when the Mount was shaking and making loud noises to put fear into the Israelites, who receded to their worshiping of the idols.

Additionally, even more authoritative sources linked by OccamsRazor04 and chr0naut prove the same point. To the moderators, in order to retain some justice, I suggest banning Sassanids's IP address (and blacklist every other information about him you can find, such as his email address, websites, or authentication data), so he won't join the forum under any other name.

@Specimen: Yes, Jesus is the incarnation of Archangel Michael (Son of God) as Son of Man (capitalized). In The Book of Urantia, Jesus is described as spiritually fulfilling the purpose that Adam and Eve (Sons/Daughters of Man) were supposed to fulfill genetically, but they failed, whereas he succeeded.

originally posted by: ilstar
Hi, I am new to the forum, and this thread caught my attention (for research). So, following Sassanid's instructions I googled "Israel henotheism" and from the first article that popped up, I found this quote:

In fact, the people of Israel even adopted this name (El) as one of the names of the LORD. When Abram (later called Abraham) meets king Melchizedek of the Canaanite city of Salem, a priest of El Elyon (God Most High), the two of them treat El Elyon and Yahweh as one and the same (Genesis 14:17-24) (p. 3)

Source

I want to state that I am not a Christian, or religious, so some of Sassanid's criticisms cannot apply to me. Having read The Urantia Book (esoteric Christian text, containing new revelations) that speaks about (Machiaventa) Melchizedek and his religion, as it was taught to Abraham, I confirm the above quote as true. Interestingly, The Urantia Book mentioned that there was no God at the Mount Sinai when Moses got the commandments, but it was merely an active volcano, and he used this powerful natural occurrence when the Mount was shaking and making loud noises to put fear into the Israelites, who receded to their worshiping of the idols.

Additionally, even more authoritative sources linked by OccamsRazor04 and chr0naut prove the same point. To the moderators, in order to retain some justice, I suggest banning Sassanids's IP address (and blacklist every other information about him you can find, such as his email address, websites, or authentication data), so he won't join the forum under any other name.

@Specimen: Yes, Jesus is the incarnation of Archangel Michael (Son of God) as Son of Man (capitalized). In The Book of Urantia, Jesus is described as spiritually fulfilling the purpose that Adam and Eve (Sons/Daughters of Man) were supposed to fulfill genetically, but they failed, whereas he succeeded.

Talk about vindictive!!! This is a free speach forum and you just proved my El and Yahweh arent the same being, exactly what I have been saying all along!!!

And for being right you want me banned. That's sad.

Your source however, didn't provide any dates. That's because Israel DID worship My El until Moses day,when jealous Yahweh forbade it, only later ADOPTING as you say, The NAME El Elyon for Yahweh. There is a timeline too this ish. So yes, you proved me correct without even realizing it and your such a wimp that you suggest banning me!!! For being right!!!

Shill account!!!!

a reply to: ilstar

And to top it off, you think Jesus is the archangel Michael. Ha!!! Jehovah's witnesse, right?

originally posted by: blindprometheus
a reply to: Sassanid

I insult you because of your vein attitude and your self importance and I'll continue to rebuke those qualities. I laugh at your premise still, its based on one loose paragraph... Doesn't mean I don't remain open to the idea, which MANY people have laid good ground work for... a very long time before you or I posted here. Thought that you might pull some references from people like Mark S. Smith but it seems you want credit for their ideas, by making weird proof statements by yourself.

Yes, I make statements, it's because I know what the f I'm talking about. And people like you act ignorant disagreeing with me but you now know I know what Im talking about.

Im not vain, just right, and I know it.

a reply to: Sassanid

We have all been fooled into believing that Yahweh and the Most High (El Elyon) are and were the same being. This may be the current belief among Christians today, but ancient Canaan/Israel did not share this belief.

Boy! That was a long thread to read and very good matter to digest. I have read this same argument before and asked my rabbi to help me understand the Christian view on this matter.

As it turns out there is not a definite answer even with the dead sea scrolls which verifies that the Hebrew translation from the DSS will translate "Sons of God." The reason being that the discussion is not knowable at this time. We have to have the original Torah to fully understand and we do not have the original Torah.

As Jesus died and His brother became the Nasi of the first Nazarene movement they had two Torahs. The Greek Torah for the Hellenists and their Greek liturgy and the Hebrew/Aramaic Torah for the Synagogue of James, John and Peter. These two Torahs are lost to us today. They do not exist in true form because they were more than likely destroyed by the revolutions of 70 CE and 135 CE. What people argue today is the evidence that they have in today's print and not the evidence of what was in print prior to the birth of the first Septuagint Torah and the Hebrew/Aramaic Torah that the first Septuagint Torah was translated from.

Even if we had the original Torah, the argument would still be presented as to whether sons of god were celestial or terrestrial. Jesus presented this very same argument as He was indicted for blasphemy. The charge was that He, Jesus, claimed to be the son of God. That was the charge and the penalty was that it was punishable by stoning till dead.

Ye Are Gods ?

A Psalm of Asaph.
Psalm 82:1-7
(1) God standeth in the congregation of the mighty; he judgeth among the gods.
(2) How long will ye judge unjustly, and accept the persons of the wicked? Selah.
(3) Defend the poor and fatherless: do justice to the afflicted and needy.
(4) Deliver the poor and needy: rid them out of the hand of the wicked.
(5) They know not, neither will they understand; they walk on in darkness: all the foundations of the earth are out of course.
(6) I have said, Ye are gods; and all of you are children of the most High.
(7) But ye shall die like men, and fall like one of the princes.

Any decree of the King is law to that nation. As you can see in the above Psalm that gods is not referenced to as spiritual beings but mere humans who are sons of God and will die like humans.

Jesus was being accused of blasphemy which in this case He claimed to be the son of God. Just like in the Psalms there are many sons and also daughters of God who are simply humans who are in God’s favor. King David accepted this as law unto Israel.

John 10:31-36
(31) Then the Jews took up stones again to stone him.
(32) Jesus answered them, Many good works have I shewed you from my Father; for which of those works do ye stone me?
(33)The Jews answered him, saying, For a good work we stone thee not; but for blasphemy; and because that thou, being a man, makest thyself God.
(34) Jesus answered them, Is it not written in your law, I said, Ye are gods?
(35) If he called them gods, unto whom the word of God came, and the scripture cannot be broken;
(36) Say ye of him, whom the Father hath sanctified, and sent into the world, Thou blasphemest; because I said, I am the Son of God?

The entire “Ye Are Gods” is that Jesus used the law of the King to exonerate His claim that He also was a son of God. If He, Jesus, was blaspheming by His claim then King David was also guilty of the same offense. Case closed. Jesus was found not guilty by the Sanhedrin on this count.

a reply to: ilstar

Oh the Urantia book! How authoritative, new revelations about the dead Melchizedek. Jews traditionally believe Melchizedek and Shem are one and the same so you're looking for revelations on a guy who's been dead for thousands of years.

Next time you hate on someone, make sure you're not proving their point in the process.

You have some serious whiney brat issues, I think you might want to grow up. You said yourself what I have been saying all along and are still mad!!!

Just a quick response to the name El. Its not just a title.

Ever met someone called Prince?
Other names used that are titles:

Chandler;
Lord;
Chaplain;
Earl;
Justice;
Marshall;
Ranger;
Tanner;
Bishop;
Taylor;
Zoltan;
etc etc. I can go on.

It is clear that a title can be a name, in fact thats how we got them in the first place.

Apart from the interpretation of El being God, it also means "might, strength, power".
Which is why I believe El was called El, due to his might, strength and power.

El dates back to around 3400BC; and
Yahweh dates to around 1200BC.

Coomba98

a reply to: coomba98

here is a title Duke, one the AV uses.

originally posted by: ChesterJohn
a reply to: coomba98

here is a title Duke, one the AV uses.

AV? Whats that mean?

a reply to: coomba98

Authorized Version

a reply to: Seede
You are a wise one indeed! I am well read but you have a good amount of knowledge in your head. My reason for coming to this thread is this subject is enlightening, I really have a problem with Jehovah and that he isn't God or El Elyon is good news to me. My understanding of Judaism is the savage atrocities of Jehovah are allegory and understood as such. I saw a program with a Jewish scholar admitting that there is no chance of the Canaanite conquest of Joshua being a real historical event and that Jews understand from the get go that the Tanakh is a mixture of history and esoteric teachings told in myths. Christianity has always felt it can interpret the Tanakh as though it is a Christian book when it's a Jewish masterpiece that should be interpreted Judaically.

But YHWH the Israelites God, IS in Deuteronomy spoken of as one of the Sons of El Elyon according to all but the Masoretic texts. This is something I learned about last year, I am very interested in translation errors and dishonesty in translation. Inheritance is the proper translation, and like the OP says, ya can't self inherit, the definition of the word makes it impossible.

Why people are so upset over the truth is a mystery, you seem to have a level head about it, but some of these so-called Christians get rabid about this in complete ignorance and what they are defending is the lies themselves, not the truth, which is un-Christian. If El is not Jehovah, he is not Jehovah, what's the big deal? They really need to give you a reason to dislike them it seems.

But you are honest, so, stay that way and never stop learning.

Do you see what I see?

a reply to: coomba98

yes I see him.

The Seven Lies Modern Scholarship Tells Us

brandplucked.webs.com...

Lie Number One - We now have older and better manuscripts.

Lie Number Two - Vaticanus and Sinaiticus Are The Best Manuscripts

Lie Number Three - We Are Getting Closer To The Original Autographs

Lie Number Four - Erasmus Was A Catholic, so the King James Bible is also a Catholic Bible.

Lie Number Five - We Now Have More Knowledge About The Bible

Lie Number Six - Professional Liars Who SAY "I believe the Bible IS the infallible words of God."

Lie Number Seven - No Doctrines Are Changed

a reply to: SerapisChrist

I saw a program with a Jewish scholar admitting that there is no chance of the Canaanite conquest of Joshua being a real historical event and that Jews understand from the get go that the Tanakh is a mixture of history and esoteric teachings told in myths. Christianity has always felt it can interpret the Tanakh as though it is a Christian book when it's a Jewish masterpiece that should be interpreted Judaically.

Religion is very personal simply because it backgrounds eternity or our afterlife. That is the reason most all will defend their views with the determination that they must be right and those who disagree must be wrong. But what is not considered, by most, is that perhaps all are wrong or all are right. How could this be in this case?

I am from Christian Jewish background from the order of the synagogue of James. Perhaps that disqualifies me from this discussion but first hear me out. Before Yahusha came into the flesh of terrestrial substance He existed in the celestial world as the image of the unseen Yahuah or El. El is the most High and only existence known to our doctrine. Yahusha was begotten from Yahuah (El) as with the properties of His Father. He had both the life within Him as well as both image and spirit. He was the celestial representative of El to the Host of heaven. As one would gaze upon Yahusha that one would gaze upon El and as that one who gazed upon Yahusha would speak to Yahusha that one would speak to El.

This is the great mystery hidden from men. As Yahusha (El's Son) became flesh He shed his image of substance into the flesh of His creation and became known to us as Jesus. El (Yahuah) did not create but El (Yahuah) gave life to His son's (Yahusha's) creation. The Apostle John tells us this mystery in His gospel's first verses. As Yehosha's flesh perished, He once again took His celestial image where He reigns today.

As you digest this you may then understand that Deuteronomy 32:8 hinges upon the celestial Yahusha which was many centuries before His first advent. As Yahusha, at this time, represented His father El in both visibility and speech it may very well have been Yahusha who is the basis of this argument. Could both be right without proper understanding?

Now all of this was designed to show you word usage. I used Yahusha in place of "The Word" or "Logos" or Jesus. or many other identifications of the same entity. I used Yahuah in conjunction with El to differentiate Father and Son. The entire argument now hinges upon whether one would accept the Jewish Christian doctrine or the Roman Christian doctrine or perhaps Gnostic doctrines or many other avenues of beliefs. If one is not in the same mindset then perhaps the Son of El is not even considered as being El but then again it becomes clear to the one who accepts El and His Son.

The same can be directed as to genocide by the Son of El in the OT literature. Is it genocide? First one must again be in the same mindset. Were there antediluvian people for the first 1600 years of creation? Were they all of the Adamic seed? Could any of them be from the procreation of the fallen ones or serpent seedlings? Were the genocides of the OT actually the war on innocent humans or the war on the corrupt seeds of the Satans?

I won't go into any of that but my point is that when man judges El (Yahuah) then that man/woman should be aware that perhaps there is more than his/her understanding. Are we so knowledgeable that we can judge El Elyon?

a reply to: Seede

Are you an Essene? I agree with you, we have almost the exact same conclusions, although my thought processes are not a eloquent. I am however the rare bird who considers new information learned and I don't mind learning I was wrong and changing my beliefs if I learn something that proves them to be false. I only like the truth, and you are spot on.

James was an Essene, I believe, that's why I asked.

Myself I am a Gnostic, as I believe that knowledge is the only path to God and exists in every ancient religion. I am a big fan of the Nag Hammadi scriptures, they are awesome. The DSS are good too,bbut kind of like reading a redacted FBI file, too much lost to decay.

a reply to: SerapisChrist

Yes we know you are a gnotic holy spiritian troll who has had too many accounts banned over the last three months to number.

DSS, Nag Hammadi, Essene, Gnostic, JB are your very signature as to whom you are.

How about contributing something of real importants instead of your opinions with no proof.

a reply to: ChesterJohn

How about you stop obssessing about what other people do. I am a Gnostic, I don't know what a Holy Spiritian is or what you're talking about, but how about I provide my opinion whenever I damn well please, if you don't like it then don't read it. I have a feeling anything that you don't agree with is in your mind "opinion" no matter how true it actually is. Throwing around words like opinion is a common evangelical tactic to discredit people who expose the lies of the churches.

What opinion of mine would you like me to prove, I would be happy too.

First an apology to the Legitimate ATS members and Staff for taking this off track for a moment.

But enough is enough already.

a reply to: SerapisChrist

Yeah and ATS and its members are Idiots and we don't know who you are?

Is this how you treat people in real life lying and deceiving?

Grow up, you get banned, what 14 times in the last few months, don't you get it?

It is time for you to move along and stop creating new accounts acting like you're a different person then getting angry for being called out on it.

You'll only get banned again. You are using up user names and ATS service space that legitimate new users who will respect ATS and its members might want to create.

You topics are no longer news to any of us we get it. We know all your Yahweh isn't EL, Gnostic anti-Paul doctrines or truth you want to tell everyone at ATS. We got all the posts on the DSS & the JB is best, We got the old Israel worships a devil of Canaanite decent we heard it.

Your trolling has to stop because in the end you are hurting yourself and insulting others.

Having said that I turn the thread back over to ATS