When Bob Lazar Declared Gravity As a Wave

originally posted by: Alien Abduct

originally posted by: dragonridr

originally posted by: chr0naut

originally posted by: Alien Abduct

originally posted by: Phage
a reply to: Alien Abduct
No.
Mass distorts space-time. Gravity is an effect of that distortion. Relative differences in the flow of time are another.

Are you saying that you can not have gravity without mass? Do you suppose an advanced civilization could warp/distort space-time with some sort of machine say for the purpose of interstellar travel?

I think that is possible and I would call it gravity and they would not be using large masses to do it.

We have no examples of gravity without mass and no evidenced theory that describes how gravity may occur without mass.

The theory that explains the relationship between mass and gravity has been known for quite a while and is supported with lots of evidence.

Large amounts of energy also have mass (in the form of momentum, as explained in equation by Einstein). This is termed: 'mass-energy equivalence' in physics.

So I'd say it's safe to state that you cannot get gravity without mass.

Why would you suggest that an advanced civilization wouldn't use mass for interstellar travel? To my point of view, engineering with vast masses could be expected to be quite the norm for advanced civilisations.

Nature uses mass to move things around and any sufficiently advanced technology is indistinguishable from nature.

Your wrong Einsteinian law of gravity involves a complicated combination of momentum and energy, in which mass does not explicitly appear. This is why Einstein’s version of gravity even pulls on things like light, which is made from photons that have no mass at all. Even gravitational waves are massless contrary to your belief and can be formed by two objects orbiting one another. Since everything in the universe is in motion, so everything in the universe exerts a gravitational effect on everything else.

Mass turns out to be much more complicated than we thought. For example the Higs field gives mass to certain particles and not others.For example photons, gluons and if gravitons exist have zero mass. But i wont go into mass right now its late byt lets just say gravity can and does exist without mass, And the key is momentum and energy. By the way when figuring out gravity there are a total of 10 variables at each point in space-time.

According to GR

No according to observations of how the universe works.

a reply to: bananasam

I remember reading this post long time ago now just had a little read through it again. Bob Lazar among very few are one of the people in this world that to me, talked truth. With anyone talking the futuristic things he spoke about would jump to conclusions that he is trying to make money off a story or something to this effect yet he never did make money from this, if anything it hurt his career and lost him valuable time in research and development of many ideas he had and still has.

I do very much believe that Bob Lazar is the man he says he is, he is clearly a bright man knowing things that not your average Joe could ever utter never mind explain in the grand complexity that he has done. Clearly he is a scientist, no fraud.

Going back to your original post and the point about gravitational waves being what he said it was, then it being echoes again years later on the news, well that just shows the delay in which the public get given new findings and technology.

It is clear that some grand collection of data and information has been hidden from the world and it seems that at some point it will spill. Already men like Bob Lazar grant him the Hero badge of Honour as he is one of a few that think about the human race, then money or ego.

a reply to: BlackProject

Maybe...but nothing he said about element 115 and gravitational waves wasn't anything that could not be found in science journals, science textbooks, and science periodicals pre-dating Bob Lazar.

As others have pointed out on this thread, Element 115 had been predicted to exist by science years before Bob Lazar, and some of the periodic tables of Lazar's time even included placeholders for it. In addition, the idea of gravitational waves is more than 100 years old.

So yes, maybe he speaks truth and maybe not. However, nothing he has said would indicate that his story has any truth.

originally posted by: BlackProject
a reply to: bananasam

I remember reading this post long time ago now just had a little read through it again. Bob Lazar among very few are one of the people in this world that to me, talked truth. With anyone talking the futuristic things he spoke about would jump to conclusions that he is trying to make money off a story or something to this effect yet he never did make money from this, if anything it hurt his career and lost him valuable time in research and development of many ideas he had and still has.

I do very much believe that Bob Lazar is the man he says he is, he is clearly a bright man knowing things that not your average Joe could ever utter never mind explain in the grand complexity that he has done. Clearly he is a scientist, no fraud.

Going back to your original post and the point about gravitational waves being what he said it was, then it being echoes again years later on the news, well that just shows the delay in which the public get given new findings and technology.

It is clear that some grand collection of data and information has been hidden from the world and it seems that at some point it will spill. Already men like Bob Lazar grant him the Hero badge of Honour as he is one of a few that think about the human race, then money or ego.

You seriously believe he made no money from these stories? Really?

If Bob is a liar then he is the BEST liar I've ever seen. Ever.

a reply to: 3danimator2014

Can you show where he made money off of them?

originally posted by: Outlier13
If Bob is a liar then he is the BEST liar I've ever seen. Ever.

stantonfriedman.com...

alienscientist.proboards.com...

originally posted by: Alien Abduct
a reply to: 3danimator2014

Can you show where he made money off of them?

I don't need to show you, use your common sense.

- interviews
-writing articles
-be coming known by telling amazing tales to help his business ventures
-I'm sure he's written books too.

Use your common sense.

originally posted by: Outlier13
If Bob is a liar then he is the BEST liar I've ever seen. Ever.

The probable existence of Element 115 and the theory of gravitational waves were known to science decades before Lazar spoke about them (and, by the way, spoke inaccurately about them). The stuff he said could have been gleaned from reading a science magazine or a science textbook.

So, no...he wasn't a very good liar when it came to Element 115 and gravitational waves.

He may have worked at Los Alamos, and maybe (or not) even worked at or near Groom Lake/Area 51. However, there is no reason to think (other than his own unsupported claims) that he worked on reverse engineering alien technology.

a reply to: Box of Rain

That is the lamest argument for discrediting a person I have ever heard. You along with everyone else on this thread who uses the argument that if something came before someone then they have no credibility is very weak.

By your logic literally anyone and everyone in science is automatically discredited based on their assertions and hypotheses for unless an individual comes up with a truly unique and unheard of yet proven theory then we are all simply standing on the shoulders of those who have come before us.

And you are cherry picking which is pretty typical of a person attempting to discredit another. There are hours of interviews where Lazar talks circles on topics you or I or most cannot even begin to comprehend.

a reply to: Outlier13

The point is that his description of Element 115 and his description of gravitational waves does not match what we have learned of Element 115 and gravitational waves since then.

Of course, we can wildly speculate that HIS descriptions are right and the scientific findings since then are wrong, or wildly speculate that he has additional unknown insight that science has not yet discovered...

...but then we would just be wildly speculating, because nothing he has said has yet proved to be prophetic or insightful.

The point is that nothing he said is good evidence that he knows any special knowledge. There is nothing that would make me believe that, as you put it, "If Bob is a liar then he is the BEST liar I've ever seen. Ever."

I mean, what specifics about the Lazar story makes you say that?

a reply to: Box of Rain

I'm not sure I am following what your question is. Are you asking me about my ironic statement about Bob being a liar which I do not believe he is? Or are you asking me what elements of his story make me think he knows what he is talking about?

Bob definitely knew/knows some stuff. Too many weird coincidences to call his entire story BS. If we were smart we would dissect everything he said and start researching from there, Scientifically, to see if we could prove them.

originally posted by: Outlier13
a reply to: Box of Rain

I'm not sure I am following what your question is. Are you asking me about my ironic statement about Bob being a liar which I do not believe he is? Or are you asking me what elements of his story make me think he knows what he is talking about?

I'm asking why specifically do you believe he is not lying. What has he said that makes you think he is telling the truth about his work reverse engineering spacecraft?

What has he said that (in your opinion) makes it more likely that his story is the truth rather than a fabrication, and why do you feel it is likely the truth?


Like I said, it is my opinion that he has said nothing insightful that can be corroborated, and the things he said that can be corroborated are not particularly insightful -- and in fact some of it has been the opposite of insightful (i.e., inaccurate). Therefore, there is no reason for me to believe he is telling the truth.

originally posted by: chr0naut

originally posted by: Brotherman

originally posted by: chr0naut

originally posted by: bananasam
The media was celebrating this week about the groundbreaking discovery that gravitational waves are real and not just a theory formed by Einstein in 1918.

30 years ago, Bob Lazar told the press that the propulsion systems he worked on used gravitational waves. It gets more interesting when you realize that he actually insisted they were the correct theory. And also this is the 2nd theory that came true from him after the discovery of Element 115. This one is more amazing though because in some ways you could say Element 115 was inevitable.

Here's an excerpt:

Lazar: There are currently two main theories about gravity. The "wave" theory which states that gravity is a wave and the other is a theory which includes "gravitons", which are alleged sub-atomic particles which perform as gravity, which by the way, is total nonsense.

Lazar: Anyway, gravity is a wave and there are two different types of gravity. Gravity A and gravity B. Gravity A works on a small or "micro" scale and gravity B works on a larger or "macro" scale. We're familiar with gravity B...

Lazar had his fair share of criticisms, but out of every single person in this UFO research, at least 2 of his quantifiable assertions have come true before anyone knew the answer - one of which is almost a century old.

Gravity waves were also fairly inevitable. Just hard to detect.

I have to ask as a neutral party here as I dont care about bob lazar more then just some guy insaw on sightings back in the 90's, if he was such an idiot as everyone makes him to be and people went well out of their way *cough Stanton Friedman cough* to make it appear as though he was basically educated, how would element 115 and gravity waves been an inevitable conclusion for someone no better educated then most 11th graders from a year ago?
I'm not stupid but i never looked at gravity waves as being an inevitable discovery.

ETA: When I asked this question the poster didn't have all that other stuff added JS

Element 115 was first described, theoretically, in 1975 by Burkhard Fricke in this paper. The predictions in the paper are far more accurate than Lazar's. The paper also existed well before Lazar's claims and was somewhat famous at the time (among a particular group).

Now we know a lot more about 115 and it has nothing like the properties Lazar suggested. The 115 number and Ununpentium name existed well before Lazar.

Similarly, gravitational waves are a prediction of Einstein's relativity, a proof that it works as theorized. They have been damn hard to detect, partially because they 'wave reality like a flag' so everything we try to use to detect them gets wobbled around by the same amount.

n 1869 a Russian chemist named Dmitri Mendeleev first theorized about not just element 115 but many other as yet to be discovered / created heavy elements.

Because Dmitri Mendeleev was the first known scientist to theorize about element 115's existence does it negate and nullify Burkard Fricke? Of course it does not but the same argument is being applied in this thread regarding Bob Lazar. I see a lot of hypocrisy in the arguments in this thread. The truth is we cannot disprove what Bob Lazar has claimed for so long.

originally posted by: Box of Rain

originally posted by: Outlier13
a reply to: Box of Rain

I'm not sure I am following what your question is. Are you asking me about my ironic statement about Bob being a liar which I do not believe he is? Or are you asking me what elements of his story make me think he knows what he is talking about?

I'm asking why specifically do you believe he is not lying. What has he said that makes you think he is telling the truth about his work reverse engineering spacecraft?

What has he said that (in your opinion) makes it more likely that his story is the truth rather than a fabrication, and why do you feel it is likely the truth?


Like I said, it is my opinion that he has said nothing insightful that can be corroborated, and the things he said that can be corroborated are not particularly insightful -- and in fact have been the opposite of insightful (i.e., inaccurate). Therefore, there is no reason for me to believe he is telling the truth.

I think the problem with Bob is that some of his stuff was corroborated.

The element and gravitational waves are pretty cool, but, yes by themselves are meaningless. But then take into account that he was in the in house phone directory of Los Alamos The Government said he didn't work there, he know when test flights were going to occur at area 51 and also knew the lay out of the dinning hall/cafeteria and also George Knapp saw him being followed. Then ad into it that he built his own partical Accelorator and Jet engine powered car and that even now he has government contracts to sell scientific supplies.

It's the weird coincidences that tell you there's something to Bobs story and there there has been some government mis information and misdirection involved.

I'm not saying it right but A. if he was lying and totally wacko looking for pupblicity he would have written a book and tried to cash in more and B. The government wouldn't need to give us misinfromation about him like erasing his files from Los Alamos etc.

originally posted by: Box of Rain

originally posted by: Outlier13
a reply to: Box of Rain

I'm not sure I am following what your question is. Are you asking me about my ironic statement about Bob being a liar which I do not believe he is? Or are you asking me what elements of his story make me think he knows what he is talking about?

I'm asking why specifically do you believe he is not lying. What has he said that makes you think he is telling the truth about his work reverse engineering spacecraft?

What has he said that (in your opinion) makes it more likely that his story is the truth rather than a fabrication, and why do you feel it is likely the truth?


Like I said, it is my opinion that he has said nothing insightful that can be corroborated, and the things he said that can be corroborated are not particularly insightful -- and in fact have been the opposite of insightful (i.e., inaccurate). Therefore, there is no reason for me to believe he is telling the truth.

The primary reason I do not believe Lazar is lying is because I cannot tell you why. Let's just call it my "intuition" which it is not. It is something else I am not going to discuss on an Internet forum. The second reason is he has a very deep and large breadth of knowledge on propulsion systems and gravity that you simply cannot BS your way through. Show me anywhere any astrophysicist can accurately describe exactly what gravity is, how it works, and why it works the way it does.

A third reason and one of the more interesting aspects of his story is why he was told he was specifically selected. This alone is one of the more compelling details. I've worked with people who on paper would appear to be the least likely candidate for a given role/task and ultimately turned out to be not the best person for the role but the right person for the role.

I will go back through this one particular interview I found and point out something for you to look at and listen to. Just give me some time to find the specific one I am talking about.

originally posted by: Box of Rain
a reply to: Outlier13

The point is that his description of Element 115 and his description of gravitational waves does not match what we have learned of Element 115 and gravitational waves since then.

Wrong, the element 115 isotopes that have been manufactured are SEVERELY NEUTRON DEFICIENT. There's no way they would be stable. That doesn't mean there isn't a stable isotope. Are you familiar with Uranium? U235 is VERY different to U238. Tritium is very different to Hydrogen. etc etc.

Also, gravity is well known to warp space-time. As proven since the early 20th century. What you describe as gravity "waves" is probably the tiny ripples in space-time caused by a orbiting black hole pairs. That's very different to the craft propulsion as stated by Lazar, which was the amplification of the strong nuclear force. To state that humans are at the edge of understanding of physics is pretty arrogant, we still don't even know what dark matter is.

originally posted by: Outlier13
Because Dmitri Mendeleev was the first known scientist to theorize about element 115's existence does it negate and nullify Burkard Fricke? Of course it does not but the same argument is being applied in this thread regarding Bob Lazar.

The existence of Element 121 (for example) is hypothesized, but it has not yet been confirmed; most think it will someday be confirmed.

The existence of the Higgs Field is hypothesized, but has not yet been confirmed. Science is somewhat split as to whether or not the Higgs Field exists, but many say that some day it will be found.

Now, let's say that I have read a few articles in Scientific America, or Popular Science, or maybe a few publicly available scientific journals on the matter of Element 121 and the Higgs Field -- enough to know that these things are hypothesized to exist.

Then let's say that I concoct a fabricated story about reverse engineering an alien craft that crashed in my back yard, and I found that it creates a fantastic method of propulsion that manipulates the Higgs field by using crystalline Element 121. I add a few scientific flourishes to my story in order to install some technobabble into it....something along the lines of:

Crystalline element 121 is injected into a magnetic reaction chamber in which positrons are used to strip electrons from the element 121 atoms -- some of the stripped electrons are annihilated by the positrons, and some are mixed with the (now ions) of element 121, creating a plasma field of element 121 . This plasma has the affect of manipulating the otherwise homogenous Higgs field compressing the Higgs field in such a way that it allows virtual particles that are using popping in and out of existence to remain in existence.

This has a scaler effect on the Higgs Field surrounding the spacecraft in such a way that the virtual particles ahead of the craft great a positive mass in relation to the relative lack of virtual particles behind the craft, creating a mass bubble from the nothingness of virtual particles (i.e., free energy) that results in a "trough" of spacetime ahead of the craft and expanded spacetime behind the craft, due to the virtual mass differential.

[I realize that could be more eloquent, but I wrote that in 5 minutes off the top of my head. Give me a few days and it would be a more polished piece of fakery.

Fast forward 20+ years. The LHC confirms the existence of the Higgs field, and some lab in Russia confirms the existence of Element 121. Does that make my story (which was in fact fabricated) any more believable as fact?

What if the properties of the Higgs Field discovered by LHC is not as I described 20 years earlier, and the properties of Element 121 discovered by the Russian lab was not as I described 20 years earlier. Does that affect the believability of my fabricated story?

That's the same boat that Bob Lazar is in. His description of the properties of gravitational waves and the properties of Element 115 do not match what is known about these things. He hasn't said anything about propulsion that is meaningful to science, just like what I wrote about my fake propulsion system is also not particularly meaningful.

Again, people could argue that he is talking way above the level that science even understands, but people who say that need to provide some evidence that what he is talking about is real, rather than just saying "I don't understand him, so he must really know some super-secret stuff that must be real".

Lazar may as well have been describing Chrysler's Turbo-Encabulator:

Or its cousin, the Retro-Encabulator (integrated by Rockwell Automation):

originally posted by: tc2290

originally posted by: Box of Rain
a reply to: Outlier13

The point is that his description of Element 115 and his description of gravitational waves does not match what we have learned of Element 115 and gravitational waves since then.

Wrong, the element 115 isotopes that have been manufactured are SEVERELY NEUTRON DEFICIENT. There's no way they would be stable. That doesn't mean there isn't a stable isotope. Are you familiar with Uranium? U235 is VERY different to U238. Tritium is very different to Hydrogen. etc etc.

Also, gravity is well known to warp space-time. As proven since the early 20th century. What you describe as gravity "waves" is probably the tiny ripples in space-time caused by a orbiting black hole pairs. That's very different to the craft propulsion as stated by Lazar, which was the amplification of the strong nuclear force. To state that humans are at the edge of understanding of physics is pretty arrogant, we still don't even know what dark matter is.

Your not making sense at all, Super-heavy elements are generally unstable and most last only a fraction of a second before they start to decay. And as for gravity it doesnt warp anything. Gravity is itself the curvature of spacetime you seem to have a problem with the difference. And as far as physics your not going to move amplifying the strong nuclear force. And amplifying it doesnt even extend its range. So basically your entire post was wrong.