Can anyone give me a real reason Bernie is bad for America?

originally posted by: smitastrophe
I really do support all of Bernie's ideas. It would be freaking awesome if everybody had free healthcare, free education and free housing, especially if it was all quality. But nothing in this life is free, and when it usually is it is crappy (think those hand out bobbles you get at conferences or tech shows, branded pens, USB flash drives etc). His tax proposal is scary, but what is even scarier are peoples brazen support of him and his plans.

Tax Foundation Report

The full report here:
Report

I just don't see how any of his solutions are going to solve any of our problems? These are very antiquated economic policies that we KNOW stifle growth and prosperity, contracting the economy which is already in a weakened state. In nearly EVERY instance where they have been enacted in the past this has proven to be the outcome. In most cases, disaster. Why do we want to enact those policies here? This isn't some new-age train of thought, nobody is blazing any trails, this form of government doesn't work and isn't good for the average citizen.

What amazes me most, is that MOST people who support Bernie Sanders, feel the exact same way that MOST right wing conservatives do. They are pissed off with the way things are and have had enough, it seems like we all feel the same way. I think that is why we are seeing so much support for candidates like Sanders and Trump, they represent the political "outside". It's honestly fascinating to me, all I know is that it will be one hell of an election year.

Very good contribution, the difference is in understanding economics and human behavior.

originally posted by: deadlyhope
a reply to: xuenchen

Reality... as in???

His policies, ideas and such are used across the world.
Him getting in as president? He is gaining popularity all the time...

And all over the world, every single day, people jump off of bridges to commit suicide. Does that mean you need to just to be like them?

I am sure it works.

originally posted by: reldra

originally posted by: avgguy
Reasons why Bernie is bad for America

1.) he wants to raise minimum wage to unsustainable levels.

2.) he wants to expand the welfare state.

3.) he wants to increase govt spending.

4.) he wants to raise taxes, drastically.

5.) he wants to make healthcare universal.

6.) he's a union whore

7.) he's for an assault weapon ban and a ban of semi auto rifles.

-I don;t think $15/r is unsustainable. Some cities have done it and then people have more money to spend, or at least pay their bills. If an employer can't pay enough for people to pay their reasonable bille, they have no business being in business.

-I don;t see the tax raise on the low and middle class, I saw an unknown website cite it.

-We once had an assault weapons ban. Many countries do. It would be reinstating it. I think that happened under a republican president.
-what exactly is a union whore? That he supports unions? that is a good thing.

My mother-in-law, retired, owns and runs a small bead shop. Apparently people buy beads. Who knew? It's her main source of income and gives her something to do. Her employee is a high schooler who works part time there, and my mother pays her $10 an hour, which I thought was pretty generous considering the amount of responsibility involved in selling beads.

Given Bernie's minimum wage, my mother-in-law would be required to pay her employee $15 an hour. This sounds all good and nice, but she does not even pay herself $15 an hour, after bills. In other words, she would have to pay her employee more money than she pays herself: the business owner, the manager, the boss, the employer.

She would not be able to afford an employee given Bernie's plan. The employee goes and works at corporate company x, while another small business owner goes under.

Its really simple actually.
Nothing, including billionaires, suck the life out of you every day. Its the typical bernie sanders supporters lack of initiative that sucks the life out of them. You can be a wealthy person too, you just have to work hard at it and be smart with it. Its really easy to have a victim mentality and think the USA owes you your due. It doesn't. We are a country of perpetual debt and if we don't fix our monetary system then our dollar will collapse, and nobody will be left high and dry... but thats another story.
Bernie sanders would tax us to oblivion.
An interesting fact about sweden is that their education and healthcare is free, but they pay more than 50% of their income to taxes, and their suicide rate is highest per capita in the world. I wonder why?
Bernie Sanders wants you to be able to make a career out of working at mcdonalds so you don't have anything better to strive for, and he wants to give you free healthcare and free education so that its an option instead of something to work towards. With our educational system going down the drain its not surprising that we are not able to think like we once did, and it shows. Its a lot harder to learn and educate yourself on your own when your young and impressionable.
I agree that our educational system is a problem. I don't think the solution is making it free. Whenever government gets involved in anything, the price goes up, and so will your taxes. Free healthcare? My family member just paid a 500 dollar penalty for obamacare for simply not having insurance. He was unemployed for the majority of last year and couldn't afford it even if he needed it, which he didn't. Where does that money go? To the people whose premiums have gone up? To the family who has to pay more now for the same coverage? I believe that less government is what we need. If you let the free markets really be free, then the prices will go down. Nobody can afford college these days. Government is the reason we can afford college (pell grants, student loans). Get rid of government in education. Let the college lower its price of tuition and books due to lack of enrollment= college is now affordable for those of us that strive for something better. Free market at work.

a reply to: deadlyhope

greencmp,DBCowboy, ketsuko, BatheInTheFountain, TheTory, BlubberyConspiracy


I love the effort, but youre not going to get through to these people. They have their beliefs because they have to. Theyre most likely too incompetent, or lack the motivation, to provide a decent life for themselves. They have a liberal arts degree and feel they should get to live the same life as somebody that provides a service that is in high demand or considered valuable.

Job creators provide me with a means to support my family and I trade my skills and time for money. I use that money to buy things for my family. When I buy things, other people make money and they, in turn, support their families.

This is really it! Somebody mustve not handed out that information to them. They dont realize that what theyre really asking for, is for the ones footing the bill to be also unemployed, or underpaid


a reply to: TheTory

Or they might not be a failure, and their beliefs are genuine and not selfish in nature.. They still dont get that it wont work.

and you guys using western europe, its a different demographic. Its not apples to apples.

a reply to: BoldAlligator

a reply to: Allenb83

If this is so, then why do we have lower social mobility than almost all the other western industrialized nations? And if the poor lack such incentive then why is it that the majority of my taxes go to subsidize big business? Why are they taking my money that they haven't worked for? This is after big business has already made WAY MORE than I have off of my labor (my job makes several hundred times my labor cost from my work).

Aside from all of this, I have seen Bernie's "horrible tax increases" and under 250k they are miniscule.....and above that annual salary they are still extremely modest.

Lastly, total taxation in the US ends up being around 40%....which is not much lower than European nations with free healthcare, education, maternity AND paternity leave, paid vacation, etc. And to top it all off......most of us see little return from our taxes!

Why would one think that someone who has been in DC for25 years would change anything?
You do realize SANDERS has been in DC for 25 years.

a reply to: BatheInTheFountain

The Sander supporters will never agree with you. After all, these are the same people who try to pin "everything under the sun as socialist." Of course, as long as it works in favor of their argument, and tries to lure as many people into their camp as possible.

Sander uses the same old lies that have been used for decades to lure people into accepting "socialism". Even though that same party, "social democrat" has been using the same old lies which entire nations embraced and which allowed for some of the worst dictatorships to ever exist. But again, the Sander cheerleaders will never admit to it. After all, they have been doing the same thing every time someone else, somewhere else claimed these same things Bernie claims. Once those same policies they claim would save the 99% have been implemented and true socialism is in, when these systems turn into dictatorships these are the very same people who will either claim... "but that is not socialism. Socialism and/or communism has never, truly ever existed"... Or they will claim "Sweden is an example of a socialist country"... They will never give you as an example of a true socialist nation a country like India of course, and will claim every service such as "the police, fire-fighters, the school system, etc is socialist".

These are the very same people who always ignore the facts behind of what they claim is "socialist", whether it is a nation, or an agency, or program. They want to see themselves as "idealists", when in fact are very "delusional" and irrational. They always try to appeal to your emotions to lure you in, instead of actually giving logical ideas, or logical plans. Heck, there have been threads where many of these very same people have claimed "left-leaning = compassionate" and "right leaning = greedy and inhuman".

No matter what you tell them, they will continue to "believe" what they want to "believe", because that's what socialism (whatever they want to dress it up as, ei "social democracy, progressivism, etc) is about; make believe.

Not sure if its been said yet, but I was too lazy to read the entire thread when I already knew my reason for not supporting bernie. I believe he is sincere about his actions. I also agree with his concerns with banking as well as his solution for healthcare. The problem I see is in implementation. Aside from the stonewalling he will struggle with the implementation problem I see will take his noble ideas and twist them into something far more destructive. What he is asking for will require SIGNIFICANT expansion of government authority. Even if we assume that he is altruistic AND that the construction of his proposals was done with such foresight and intuition that if implemented correctly there would be no unforeseen consequences or chain reactions, there is simply no way similar assurances can be made for the scores of people responsible for the numerous facets of execution. I can guarantee that if he becomes president and successfully lobbies for the authority he needs his administration will run rampant with levels of corruption unseen even in these ridiculous times. The newly granted power will be the first iteration of its kind and as a result will most likely lack the nuanced balancing that only comes from repetition. I imagine he will try to stem the corruption once identified but if it was me I know the disappointment and frustration would kill whatever spark of hope I had left.

Recent events demonstrate numerous noble causes hijacked by deceitful or malicious intent. The Green Movement suffered a number of these instances. The Nuclear Lobby successfully stole the campaign against excessive oil consumption. Big Agriculture bastardized the same campaign with biofuels (specifically corn ethanol) which consumes an enormous amount of topsoil and water in that wasteful eutrophication sort of way that big agro does best in order to grow tons of corn yielding a pathetic amount of ethanol, all against the backdrop of hunger problems, ineffective government subsidies, political manipulation, promulgation of monocultures, damage to consumers' vehicles, and promotion of unethical and ineffective big agriculture practices (big run on sentence I know). Global warming a.k.a. Global Climate Change was initially ridiculed until decision makers recognized its approval getting potential for underhanded financial, political, and industrial practices at great expense to the individual citizen. Destruction of cultures and society have resulted from the illusion of "helping" fight oppression in our many humanitarian wars. The danger of this thievery under Bernie's watch is very high and the damage frightening.

Bernie's ideas might be exactly what this country needs. Unfortunately he cannot do it alone nor with others. At some level, somewhere the cost of implementation will fall on citizens once again.

DISCLAIMER: Currently I am a cautiously optimistic supporter of Trump. I know he's an asshole and his rhetoric is dangerous but there are a few reasons why I think he is the least dangerous and even potentially successful president:

1) his arrogance and ego led him to desire the presidency (arguably the greatest achievement to reaffirm his complex) and by extension may motivate him to transform the country into one "worthy" of being administered by Trump
2) the fact that he is already wealthy makes him less beholden to financial gain and more focused on legacy and reputation. 'Bribes", I mean donations have become so rampant and politicians so cheap that it seems all you need to do is donate $30,000 to obtain your very own politician. I imagine with Trump it would have to be much higher
3) Trump was and somewhat still is the throwaway candidate. His success owes largely to badly things have been handled up to this point. His election would either break free from this cycle of misrepresentation and/or flip a very large middle finger to the system as a whole resulting in irreversible damage to the credibility and future of the current system
4) regardless of past failures and successes, no one can deny that Trump is well traveled and has extensive experience with negotiation and administration. Our politicians on the other hand tend to not be particularly skilled or knowledgeable about anything (i.e. poor understanding of financial mechanisms or technology and focus on short term gains = PAIN)
5) because of his character and scores of detractors, one can assume that he will be watched like a hawk. This oversight in turn will prevent passage of controversial or dangerous legislation unlike the free ride Obama enjoyed for several years from the momentum built up after 8 years of Bush. (Another example of taking a noble cause and perverting it)

I think if the poor and middle class came out to vote for someone who represented their interests. It would be a revolution of democracy and a massive shake up for the system. Unfortunately people get convinced to vote against their own interests. When 1% own 80 % of the worlds wealth it's fair to say the majority have been hood winked into voting against their own interests. It's understandable when that 1% own the access to the news and information available

Socialists...rarely understand what Socialism is. If they actually sit down to research the HOW of Socialism and not the WHAT...and they still are "Socialists"....you're not dealing with someone who approaches culture, economics, sociology from logic...you're dealing with a BELIEVER.

Socialism's Altruism and Philanthropy are great in principal, but terrible in practice.

And PLEASE stop using the term "Social Democrat" or "Social Democracy"...

If you knew what the terms meant and their origin was, you would in FACT see that you are advocating NEO-MARXISM and that Marx himself was the De Facto progenitor of the idea.

If you're going to tout a PHILOSOPHY at least read what it is.

Just because Bernstein and others wanted to revamp Marxism on 1 or 2 points but held many of the same premises, does not mean that the FOUNDATION is not Marxism.

Okay, so you're not an ORTHODOX MARXIST, but you're 90% there otherwise.

Oh okay, I guess we'll just ignore that. How many times can you call Marxism by another name? Because you believe in Capitalism for NOW? Until all the other planks of Socialism fall into place?

Lipstick on a pig means it's still a pig.

Saying you're a "Social Democrat" instead of Socialist is like saying you're a Sunni instead of a Shiite....or Catholic instead of a Christian.

a reply to: ElectricUniverse

"[Classical] Liberalism and capitalism address themselves to the cool, well-balanced mind. They proceed by strict logic, eliminating any appeal to the emotions. Socialism, on the contrary, works on the emotions, tries to violate logical considerations by rousing a sense of personal interest and to stifle the voice of reason by awakening primitive instincts."

-Ludwig von Mises

"Social Democrat"

So in other words you like like Capitalism for NOW, but enjoy all the free goodies of Socialism and want MOAR!

You want extreme collective bargaining but Capital to exist and 'fair shares' for everyone...yeah THAT'S not a slippery slope.

You want Universal Healthcare, but your Capitalism benefits along with it... so you can have a nice house but all the "poor people' have nice houses too....that's not a slippery slope either....nope

You want bottom up growth but don't know who to tax, so you invent the word 'rich' to cover most people that would be in the Middle Upper class and actually START businesses....

You want Corporations to be fair and balanced, but never scrutinize GOVERNMENT and their policies or waste or overreach....yeah that works well....it's all the "1%"....all the time...while we're TRILLIONS in debt.

Oh okay. I guess the HOW of all this is just on paper in draft form now and sounds awesome on a storyboard. Nice movie idea. Let's hire Tom Hanks!

I supported Paul and now I support Sanders. It's not about any ism, as they were ideologically very different. It's all about a simple thing..... Who our taxes are going to benefit. The massively wealthy minority (we have seen how this works out for many decades now) or the majority of the populace ( this would be a nice change).

In response to those who think he has good ideas but wouldn't get them through......I'd rather see someone try and fail to do the right things, rather than someone who could succeed at doing the wrong things. Which do you think would be more detrimental?

a reply to: BatheInTheFountain

Interesting. So our nation is trillions in debt. In the same time period the >1% have massively increased their share of the wealth (strangely also trillions, just like the ones that our budget is missing)......and you are not sure who is to blame? I'd say if we had a worldwide cookie shortage, and one tiny group of hooligans happened to be sitting mysteriously on mountains of cookies all of a sudden, you could figure out what happened to all the damned cookies, rather than blaming those without cookies, scrambling for a crumb.

**oops, wrong thread. Sorry!

a reply to: kosmicjack

Eh, they're both going to sell it as a win. Let's be honest, if it was reversed, bernie would say he beat her too.

originally posted by: pexx421
a reply to: BatheInTheFountain

Interesting. So our nation is trillions in debt. In the same time period the >1% have massively increased their share of the wealth (strangely also trillions, just like the ones that our budget is missing)......and you are not sure who is to blame? I'd say if we had a worldwide cookie shortage, and one tiny group of hooligans happened to be sitting mysteriously on mountains of cookies all of a sudden, you could figure out what happened to all the damned cookies, rather than blaming those without cookies, scrambling for a crumb.

Question, who are YOU in debt to? Pepsi Co.......or the FEDERAL GOVERNMENT?

Who can crack the economy OVERNIGHT with the stroke of a pen on wrong policy? Verizon Wireless....or people like Janet Yellen or Ben Bernanke?

Who makes policy decision on taxation? Walmart, or the Lobbysists and special influence along with local and State Government?

Who decides policy on energy and costs? Donald Trumps of the world or Government?

Who decides your PAYROLL tax rate? Elon Musk or POLITICIANS?

Who decides zoning laws, franchise tax board rules, building code violations, no bid or bid contract laws?

See where I'm going here?

originally posted by: pexx421
I supported Paul and now I support Sanders. It's not about any ism, as they were ideologically very different. It's all about a simple thing..... Who our taxes are going to benefit. The massively wealthy minority (we have seen how this works out for many decades now) or the majority of the populace ( this would be a nice change).

In response to those who think he has good ideas but wouldn't get them through......I'd rather see someone try and fail to do the right things, rather than someone who could succeed at doing the wrong things. Which do you think would be more detrimental?

So you supported Ron Paul then went to BERNIE? That blows my mind firstly.

Secondly, when you say you would rather vote for a person who has all the 'right ideas' and will at least try, but has a huge chance of not SUCCEEDING, what you're saying is that you're an Idealist.

Idealists don't approach what CAN be done, the logic of it, they think with their hearts...and that is going to get us all killed.

And who told you Bernie has the 'right ideas' in the first place? Your premise is flawed from the outset. You have to examine WHY you think Bernie's ideas are "right" and if they will work to begin with, or have any chance of passing.

Sorry but this isn't some game. This is peoples lives and a fluid and unstable Global and U.S. economy. There are RULES to economics and Government. This isn't a battle of ideas anymore, we don't have the luxury. The U.S. economy is one 'paycheck' away from being freaking HOMELESS and you're talking like an Idealist.