Proof of the danger of Conservative philosophy to life, health and the Welfare of people.

originally posted by: MOMof3
a reply to: Bundy

Mr Jones would have you believe old pipes that were too weak to handle corrosive water that lead to poisoning is a blue thing. Ok. So why isn't mr jones pushing congress for a massive infrastructure bill to rebuild our country? Or is that a blue thing too.

Just about everyone knows the "shovel-ready jobs" didn't happen. If the EPA can destroy a river and surrounding area while the funds go into things like Agenda 21 implementation and Common Core initiatives and bureaucratic overhead costs of the ACA.... why would we trust the govt to rebuild the water infrastructure?

a reply to: ThirdEyeofHorus

Uh....because we have to for survival. Who else is going to? Is the plan to let our nation rot within? Let kids get lead poisoning, fungus allergies in schools? Feds end up paying for all that and will have to bail out Michigan from all the lawsuits. And all that crap about government failure is just political meat to get away from real solutions. Maybe you should ask why we can't win a war. Oh right, if we won one the producers of war weapons would take a big hit. Trillions and traitors.

a reply to: Falenor

If only you had been in charge. The city manager who was in control of the city finances kept saying the water was safe:

"In March 2015, the Flint city council voted to "do all things necessary" to return to purchasing water from the Detroit Water and Sewerage Department. This vote followed complaints and a report by Veolia North America that Flint water was in violation of the Safe Drinking Water Act. Jerry Ambrose, the state appointed Flint emergency manager who controlled Flint finances, disagreed with the idea of again sourcing Flint water from Detroit. Ambrose issued a statement "Flint water today is safe by all Environmental Protection Agency and Michigan Department of Environmental Quality standards, and the city is working daily to improve its quality."[26]

In August 2015, three organizations, citing lead levels and other problems, "delivered more than 26,000 online petition signatures to Mayor Dayne Walling, demanding the city end its use of the Flint River and reconnect the city to the Detroit water system".[27]

It was discovered that the problem arose because the water from the Flint River has a lower pH and a higher salinity, causing the protective oxide and phosphate coatings on the lead service pipes to erode, exposing bare metal.[citation needed] In October 2015, the water supply was switched back to Detroit.[28][29] Flint started adding additional orthophosphate to the Detroit water in December 2015 to facilitate the buildup of the phosphate scale eroded from the pipes by the Flint River water.[30] How long this process takes to lower lead levels remains unclear."

en.wikipedia.org...

a reply to: MOMof3

The Emergency Manager would have received the information that the water was safe from city officials themselves, the city of Flint is supposed to monitor levels from their treatment plant, throughout the distribution system, and at the tap. If you look further down on the wiki page that you supplied you'll find this:

"While the local outcry about Flint water quality was growing in early 2015, Flint water officials filed papers with state regulators purporting to show that "tests at Flint's water treatment plant had detected no lead and testing in homes had registered lead at acceptable levels."[37] The documents falsely claim that the city had tested tap water from homes with lead service lines, and therefore the highest lead-poisoning risks; in reality; the city does not know the locations of lead service lines, which city officials acknowledged in November 2015 after the Flint Journal/MLive published an article revealing the practice after obtaining documents through the Michigan Freedom of Information Act.[38] The Journal/MLive reported that the city had "disregarded federal rules requiring it to seek out homes with lead plumbing for testing, potentially leading the city and state to underestimate for months the extent of toxic lead leaching into Flint's tap water.".

Basically the City of Flint wasn't testing properly for lead, and lied claiming they tested homes with lead pipes as required by law....they don't even know the locations of these homes with lead pipes. That fact right there is one of the leading, if not the biggest causes of this mess.

The Veolia Report that wiki mentions I'll link below, it's odd that wiki claims that Flint was in violation according to the report. From page 2 of that report:

"The review of the water quality records during the time of Veolia’s study shows the water to be in compliance with
State and Federal regulations, and, based on those standards, the water is considered to meet drinking water
requirements."

I suppose it's all in the wording, there were violations previously in regards to TTHM levels, which the report was focusing on, not lead in this case. At the time of the study though they were in compliance according to Violia. Also interesting, on page 10 they recommend corrosion control even though that wasn't the focus of the report.

Veolia Report

An interesting and important point is that the treated water from Detroit has always had corrosion control, the new water treatment plant in Flint had no plans for corrosion control in place even when they switched to Lake Huron source water. If Detroit required corrosion control for Lake Huron water, wouldn't Flint as well ? Theoretically the same leaching of lead could have happened off Lake Huron water as well, probably not as fast though as the P.H wouldn't have been as low. Combine this with improper lead testing done by the City of Flint and over the course of a couple years we could be looking at the same situation with lead as now.....theoretically.

a reply to: Falenor

Pretty simple really. The entire switch from the source they had been getting water from for 50yrs, was to save money. Now why would the City Manager in charge of finances put more money into a temporary water system? Someone did skew the results, I don't care what color they vote, they need to go to prison like any other terrorist.

It's really this simple, the republicans took over and look what happened. Republicans took over federally and illegal Iraqi war and a collapsed economy but the rich got richer. Bias has nothing to do with it, it's staring you in the face. Of course I'm sure it's Obamas fault

originally posted by: MOMof3
a reply to: Falenor

Pretty simple really. The entire switch from the source they had been getting water from for 50yrs, was to save money. Now why would the City Manager in charge of finances put more money into a temporary water system? Someone did skew the results, I don't care what color they vote, they need to go to prison like any other terrorist.

Incorrect, that plant was not a temporary water treatment system. The water they would receive from the KWA would not be treated. They would continue to use the plant to treat the water the same way they attempted to with the river. Quoted from page 3 of the "Operational Evaluation Report" by the City of Flint:

"The City of Flint has signed an agreement with the Karegnondi Water Authority (KWA) to
purchase raw water drawn from Lake Huron"

Operation Evaluation Report

Again....as I pointed out above, even Detroit uses corrosion control for Lake Huron water, Flint had no plans to, and with improper lead testing done by the city of Flint they could very well have been in the same situation a couple years later.

Regardless....yes...some people need to go to prison for this.....whether at the city level for breaking Federal law for not testing properly for lead, the MDEQ for dismissing tonnes of complaints and not enforcing corrosion control, and and State level for ignoring the same complaints. All I'm trying to point out is that it was a convoluted failure on multiple levels, and it's not as simple as saying it's all the Governor's fault though he does indeed share some of the blame.

a reply to: Falenor

When you say the City of Flint, to whom are you referring? The elected officials or the Manager who had been given control?

"Indeed, in March 2013, while under a state-appointed emergency manager, the Flint City Council voted 7-1 to stop buying water from Detroit and switch to a new pipeline that took water from Lake Huron by joining the KWA. But the Flint City Council never specifically voted to start taking water from the Flint River in the interim.
That decision was made later, as a result of Detroit raising the rates it would charge as Flint unhooked from the Detroit water supply and connected to the new KWA pipeline – which wasn’t going to be completed until sometime in 2016.
The Flint City Council, which had no real authority anyway because the city was being run by a state-appointed emergency manager, did not vote yes or no on connecting to the Flint River. That decision was made by emergency manager Ed Kurtz, Earley’s predecessor, who hired an engineering firm to study taking water from the Flint River and subsequent emergency manager Earley, who sent a letter to Detroit water officials informing them of Flint’s intention to use Flint River water once the Detroit contract expired.
Yet another state agent, the Michigan Department of Environmental Quality, signed the April 2014 permit allowing the city’s drinking water to be drawn from the Flint River."

"As in many statements considered by the Truth Squad, there is just enough truth here to mislead. It’s true that city officials voted in 2013 to switch to a new water supply when the KWA pipeline was completed in 2016. But more relevant is the documented evidence that the decision to use Flint River water in the interim was made by state-appointed emergency managers, not democratically elected city officials. To cite the initial council vote without mentioning the state’s role in switching to Flint River water is a transparent attempt to deflect blame – and possible financial responsibility – for a man-made tragedy."

bridgemi.com...

a reply to: MOMof3

Yes, I can see how that reference can be mistaken, I'm reffering to the Operational and oversight side of the City of Flint. Specifically the Water Dept, as well as planning, and law compliance. As I mentioned they were not testing properly for lead by law, and lied about it as well.If they had tested properly, they would have seen the plant was not treating the water correctley, and either may have been able to correct it sooner, or as they did immediatley switch back to Detroit's system.

The river was a bad choice, I've mentioned that before. Now, many other cities use rivers as a source for drinking water, but lakes are the best source usually. But right there in your own quote you have a MDEQ agent signing off that the river was ok, thank you for that....again I've blamed the MDEQ as well:

"Yet another state agent, the Michigan Department of Environmental Quality, signed the April 2014 permit allowing the city’s drinking water to be drawn from the Flint River."

Now the question is ..."Was it really safe to draw water off that river ?". The MDEQ said is was, so they did, all whilst the the Water Dept of the City of Flint failed their citizens by not testing for lead correctly, and blithely stating that is was fine when they knew they were breaking Federal Law. Again, yes....Governor is to blame as well for just the same ignoring the situation for so long, but as I've pointed out, many agencies and different levels of government were to blame.

a reply to: Falenor

The question I have, is how far are conservatives willing to go to save money? How far are we willing to let america's roads be a danger and now our water. I can't wrap my head around conservatives who fight so hard for unborn children, make thousands of laws to protect them, but will poison babies whose entire diet is formula and water. Make no mistake it was adherence to a principle of cutting the budget by Snyder. I think my question has been answered.

originally posted by: MOMof3
a reply to: Falenor

The question I have, is how far are conservatives willing to go to save money? How far are we willing to let america's roads be a danger and now our water. I can't wrap my head around conservatives who fight so hard for unborn children, make thousands of laws to protect them, but will poison babies whose entire diet is formula and water. Make no mistake it was adherence to a principle of cutting the budget by Snyder. I think my question has been answered.

Nice...Just pull right out of a conversation involving facts, quotes, and stats on water treatment that I've responded with and instead just go into sweeping nation wide generalities to fit your narrative. I suppose in a way your question has been answered, you surely haven't read anything I've provided you with......continue talking to yourself. I'm out....

a reply to: Falenor

That is what the thread is about,a failed philosophy. Poisoning people with drinking water to save money, and your kind just accepts it. But if it were a piece of land, or a pregnant woman,the cause of the rich,you would be all over those causes.

a reply to: MOMof3

But you haven't been able to quite connect all the dots to prove that in this single case. In fact you fall right back into generalities involving land, pregnant women, and the rich as you haven't been able to provide any concrete evidence.

The "Your Kind" comment is pretty humorous though. Let's see.... so since I disagree and would like to see actual facts I'm labeled a Conservative or Right Wing ? Please point out anywhere in this thread where I encouraged, praised, or advocated anything Right wing or Conservative ? Or does disagreeing with your already entrenched mindset on this singular item simply get me labeled Right Wing ?

I've shown with stats, quotes(even your own sources), and links how it was Flint's own Water Dept, the MDEQ, and the Governor's fault, as well as slightly the EPA. If it's proven that the Governor or the Emergency Manager were the one's who forced The City of Flint to not use corrosion control, and as well falsify their lead testing on top of that then yes it's quite a lot more their fault, but I don't see proof of that those two points yet. And no....bringing in nation wide unrelated topics like america's roads, unborn babies, pregnant women, a piece of land, or causes of the rich is not proof to this particular and complicated case.