So you refuse to CONSENT to a drug test, they can refuse to treat you? And your fetus.

That's my whole entire point. They're not making this policy for my health and safety, or the health and safety of my fetus. There are perfectly constitutional ways to go about that. Doctors are acting as agents of law enforcement and circumventing warrant requirements....and THAT is BS.

I agree totally and completely. There are better ways to protect and promote the best interests of the mother and child. This does nothing of the kind. It does promote the interests of the private prison system though. And it feeds the ever-growing "throw 'em in prison" hysteria for every "crime."

Constitutionally speaking -- or perhaps I should say unconstitutionally speaking -- this slippery slope began when the feds decided they could criminalize what we do (and, increasingly, do not) put in our bodies, and when they decided it was okay to violate our persons with random drug tests, and when they decided it was okay to steal money and belongings for "suspicion" of a crime... and so on. No more need for probable cause and warrants for searches. No more innocent until proven guilty. No more burden of proof on the accuser. Basically, no more inalienable rights under color of law.

Likewise, it happens when we let the government tell us that our inalienable right to life does not include the right to sustain that life with appropriate healthcare... when they regulate and legislate and otherwise control our access to medicines and treatment, but do not do so in the best interests of our health, and exclude many from necessary -- even lifesaving -- healthcare in the process. And when they regulate and legislate and otherwise ensure that profits come before people.

I'm glad you said no. I'm even happier that you were able to find a doctor to treat you without violating your rights. Congrats and good luck!

a reply to: ladyvalkyrie

You're right that there is not direct study that says that marijuana may cause birth defects, which isn't exactly what I said. What I said (or was trying to say) is that it could (theoretically) increase a risk in the child for schizophrenia later in life. The jury is out overall, on the studies that link marijuana use to an increased propensity for schizophrenia--some say it does increase risk, some say that it doesn't. Because of how marijuana works in the brain on a neurochemical level (even compared to other drugs) I wouldn't risk it, but that's just me and I'm not going to judge people who would as the risk is only theoretical and the relationship between GABA and glutamate (mostly) and cannabinoids and schizophrenia is still not all that well understood.

I completely agree that the risk of long term negative effects on a fetus is far more likely because of stress in the mother and separation later vs. a small amount (or even not small) of THC.

a reply to: ladyvalkyrie

10000% wrong. Alcohol shows up on test up to 3 days after drinking.

Source

Alcohol can last from 12 to 36 hours in your urine depending on a variety of factors including how long before the test you drank and how much you drank. Urine tests for alcohol can detect its presence about 48 hours after ingestion.

So the issue here is you seem highly confused about all of this.

a reply to: dawnstar

You really believe a doctor cares more about policing and expecting mother than ensuring he can deliver a healthy baby? If you actually believe that then you've either never had children or are just extremely ignorant about why people become doctors.

originally posted by: dawnstar

healthland.time.com...
www3.alternet.org...

Thank you. I knew that a few meds can give false positives and false negatives, but I didn't know about poppy seeds. This is why it's important to tell doctors what you have been taking/eating.

Drug tests are usually 90-95% sensitive which is a very good number. Positive results should then be checked with a gas
chromatography /mass spectrometry. These have a sensitivity of 99%, so practically no room for error.

Here is a great article by a toxicologist: pharmacologyonline.silae.it...

www.medpagetoday.com...

a reply to: raymundoko

I have three sons, who are all now adult...
I never had a sonogram for any of them. My doctor asked me if I wanted one, I asked him if there was a medical benefit in getting one, he said not really, unless there was some indication that there might be something wrong. I asked him if there was any risk to the baby, and he said the science wasn't clear on it really (it was rather new technology back then) but there might be a small risk...
so well I chose, and I had the legal right to chose, not to have one.
my first son was close to 10 months in the womb when I finally went into labor. He was also a rather large baby.... the doctor told me he could induce labor if I wanted and I believe he gave me the option of a c section also since it was so large. again, I chose to wait, I had the legal right to chose... I was making the decisions.

but now?? all I can say is thank god I can no longer get pregnant!!
Because when I read about women being threatened by doctors to get them to consent to c sections they don't want, women being restrained and forced into the hospital to have that c sections or well, crap like this:

In a dramatic case involving a pregnant cancer patient, Angela Carder, doctors denied her request for chemotherapy in order to preserve the health of her fetus. Doctors overrode Carder’s objections and forcibly removed her fetus through cesarean surgery. The baby died in two hours. Carder died two days later.
sandiegofreepress.org...

and well, here's a few more stories:

www.theguardian.com...
plussizebirth.com...
newyork.cbslocal.com...
www.huffingtonpost.com...

it's really becomes quite clear that women have become that one segment of adult, mentally stable humans that no longer have a say when it comes to their own healthcare!
can you give me one example when a adult mentally stable man can be force to have a surgery against his will, or really any kind of treatment, unless of course, he has an easily transmitted disease like tb or ebola? and even then, I got a feeling that they can isolate him but they can't force treatment on him!

a reply to: dawnstar

The Gyno told my fiance what she could and couldn't take and gave her a list. I noticed Ibuprofen isn't on it, only Tylenol. I guess that explains why. Guaifenesin + dextromethorphan + phenylephrine is a big no-no too. Basically a cold medicine with a decongestant that also treats a cough and cold. Being pregnant HAS to suck. I feel sorry for the ladies when they get sick.

a reply to: dawnstar

Still shouldn't smoke. Don't they say that an hour of weed smoking is equal to 100 cigarettes or something? I don't know, it was one of those Truth advertisements that are always bogus about cigarettes so who knows.

a reply to: Agartha

there's a company in my town that will hire about 50 or 60 temps at a time, work them till it's about time to hire they onto the company and then surprise them with a drug test. There may be maybe 10 lucky ones that don't "fail" it. My son was one of them, only I know for a fact that he wasn't on any drugs. He was in the navy when we moved her, and this was shortly after he got out. He never really went anywhere because he didn't know anyone and well, didn't have a license to drive at the time. the only thing he had access to was the ibprofen that I kept pushing on him to take for a knee injury he got in the navy! My husband worked for a company that made the parts for this company and even he understood... he said they do it all the time, and he knows quite a few that they did the same thing to that he was pretty sure wasn't on anything.

my son was never given a second test, they just let him go. and quite frankly, it doesn't sound like the women are given a second test before they are put through hell either.

a reply to: TinySickTears

Any drug will addict the child. Doesn't matter what it is, alcohol included.

originally posted by: ladyvalkyrie
a reply to: TinySickTears

I agree with you. Crack babies, fetal alcohol syndrome, deformities that could have been prevented....it's horrible business and more should be done to curtail it early.

A drug test won't pick up alcohol unless you're drunk right that minute. A drug test won't pick up cigarette smoke and cigs will cause premature birth, low birth weight and lifelong lung problems.

Plus the fact that threat of prosecution will drive true addicts AWAY from medical help, when they're the ones who need it the most.

@redhorse There's no evidence anywhere that shows that MJ causes birth defects. Especially if it's just a small amount. Yet that small amount on a drug test is enough to remove your child from you while you fight it in court. Instead of being home with the mother, skin to skin contact, breast milk, away from questionable foster care...which is really more harmful to mother and child? A tiny amount of THC? Or all that stress and seperation?

Question, a serious one.

What causes kids to have a big head when they're born? Some of my friends, past & present, that are drinkers (some daily) have all had kids with big heads.

a reply to: LSU0408

is asthma meds on it? just wondering, because well, that would be something that would probably do harm either way you go.

a reply to: LSU0408

Among many other serious and life long effects, drinking alcohol while pregnant CAN cause encephalopathy:
Encephalopathy Causes
Of course, some kids just have huge heads! We jokingly call my son 'Annunaki Head' and I didn't do a damn thing wrong while I was pregnant with him! Lmao! Of course, he's otherwise healthy, developmentally on track, etc.

originally posted by: dawnstar

there's a company in my town that will hire about 50 or 60 temps at a time, work them till it's about time to hire they onto the company and then surprise them with a drug test. There may be maybe 10 lucky ones that don't "fail" it. My son was one of them, only I know for a fact that he wasn't on any drugs. He was in the navy when we moved her, and this was shortly after he got out. He never really went anywhere because he didn't know anyone and well, didn't have a license to drive at the time. the only thing he had access to was the ibprofen that I kept pushing on him to take for a knee injury he got in the navy! My husband worked for a company that made the parts for this company and even he understood... he said they do it all the time, and he knows quite a few that they did the same thing to that he was pretty sure wasn't on anything.

my son was never given a second test, they just let him go. and quite frankly, it doesn't sound like the women are given a second test before they are put through hell either.

I'm sorry your son had to go through that! I also have three children and if that was to happen to one of them I would help them fight it, but I think things are a lot fairer in the UK though.

But that is a completely different scenario: removing a child from the mother is a lot more serious and I am sure further tests would be carried out to confirm the first one.

a reply to: LSU0408


I went through close to three pages of search results and they all say alcohol will cause a smaller, mildly deformed head/face.
I did run across on article that says that whites heads have been progressively getting larger over time.

originally posted by: raymundoko
a reply to: ladyvalkyrie

10000% wrong. Alcohol shows up on test up to 3 days after drinking.

Source

Alcohol can last from 12 to 36 hours in your urine depending on a variety of factors including how long before the test you drank and how much you drank. Urine tests for alcohol can detect its presence about 48 hours after ingestion.

So the issue here is you seem highly confused about all of this.

Sorry dude. Only a specific EtG test will be that sensitive:
Alcohol/Drug Test
1. They are most likely doing a drug dip stick test which isn't going to be that sensitive about alcohol
2. The pregnant lady is going to know the doctor's appointment is coming up and probably isn't going to be dumb enough to be getting drunk the night before, or even several days before.
3. Binge drinking (4 or more drinks) occasionally is more than enough to cause fetal harm and may never show up on random testing.
4. Cigarettes and massive amounts of caffeine can do fetal damage too and those aren't tested for on a basic drug test.

They are looking for illegal drugs for the purpose of law enforcement. Not any substance that could harm the fetus. Not for the purpose of the health of the mother and fetus.

If they really cared about me and my fetus they would have checked my vital signs, my urine for other 'red flags' such as high protein, high glucose, abnormal pH (but not drugs since I didn't consent to that test) and the fetal heartbeat. Instead they kicked me out of the office.

And for the true addicts that happen to be pregnant: wouldn't counseling, offering safe alternatives, creating a wean down plan, increased monitoring, access to rehab...be much more effective than taking away their children and throwing them in jail? The whole issue could be handled by the doctor without having to drag the government and criminal charges into it.

Now, if the doctor is trying to help and the woman is being non-compliant....THEN he could report her to CPS and maybe CPS could get a judge to order in patient rehab. That falls back under probable cause and THAT I can support. Doctors already have the right to break confidentiality if they feel the patient is a danger to themselves or others, so they don't need the patient's consent at that point.

a reply to: redhorse

Just a few short years ago Zofran was prescribed to help with nausea during pregnancy. Now you see lawyer ads saying "Prescribed Zofran during pregnancy? Had a baby born with birth defects? Call us!" It's since been found to cause birth defects.

Look at Thalidomide...safe to use for nausea in the 60s. Until babies started being born without LIMBS!

Doctors/science aren't infallible and they're proven wrong all the time. Unfortunately what causes defects and what doesn't is almost impossible to predict. Sometimes you just have to try it and see what the results turn out to be.

As far as MJ and schizophrenia...there are soooo many contributing factors. What if the mother uses drugs because SHE has a mild case of schizo, then the baby is born with it and the drugs are blamed? What if it's other environmental factors? There's hardly ANY peer reviewed studies on MJ, during pregnancy or not....because it's illegal. They say it's illegal because there's no evidence of its safety. Catch 22.

I suspect that MJ IS safe during pregnancy and would be an effective treatment for nausea and pain. But it's illegal. So no one can prove or disprove that. So they keep prescribing chemicals, which are perfectly legal but later found to cause birth defects.

Yay Big Pharma!

a reply to: Agartha

I think one of the poppy seed eaters had to go a few weeks to a month, maybe more to get her baby back. I'd have to go back and look to make sure, and well, just don't feel like it at the present time. but by that time, much of the damage has been done.
The same can be said as far a pregnant women who finds herself ordered to jail, or drug rehab.... that is still a few weeks, to a month or more of unnecessary stress which causes damage to the fetus also.
and many of the stories I am running across, the women didn't know they were taking the test, or weren't asked what they had eaten, or what kinds of medications they were taking, and well, probably wouldn't know that that little pill they took three days ago would cause a false positive anyways and probably wouldn't think to tell them about it. I don't think I would think to tell them about the ibprofen that I took three days ago, or yesterday, I would think that it was out of my system enough not to cause any problems with any medical care I was getting today.
now that I know that ibprofen will cause a false positive, and that doctors are doing these tests unknown to people, well, ya I tend to tell them, employers, whoever, that I do take it and I know that it might cause a false positive. and no, I will not stop taking it just to please them.

originally posted by: dawnstar
a reply to: LSU0408


I went through close to three pages of search results and they all say alcohol will cause a smaller, mildly deformed head/face.
I did run across on article that says that whites heads have been progressively getting larger over time.

On a tiny, tiny bit of a tangent, hips and heads are a fascinating area to look at. The onset of medical intervention is changing the success rates of births that, previously, would have failed. Women with narrower hips, babies with bigger heads - all more likely to survive. And if they are surviving and breeding, those traits will become more widespread as well!

Instead of derailing the thread more than I have already, feel free to read up on the snazzily-named...

Obstetrical Dilemma!