Students protest transgender invasion of privacy

a reply to: infolurker

That's an interesting read, at the same time I am against people to be pushed to accept others just for the sake of society rules, we as individuals have the right to make our own choices.

Let's ban gym class, problem solved...
Or tell the few that they can't go to gym class because they make other uncomfortable.
A transgender male has no right to make a locker room full of little girls worry about being naked.
They have enough confidence issues about their bodies as it is.

One of the reasons for communal shower and changing rooms, starting in Junior High or thereabouts, is that at that age people feel very uneasy and unfamiliar with themselves. The communal setting is a way of enforcing the idea that we are all different in some way. We are not all alike, even when outwardly in public we may appear to be. It helps develop both a sense of identity as well as tolerance and acceptance of others and stresses the idea that we are all imperfect beings. In a time of self conscious doubt it teaches us the lesson that the perception of being better or worse is superficial and that in fact we are all unique.

There are many seemingly innocuous games or experiments that occur in those years that are intended to break down the barriers people build around themselves in a safe and constructive way. In the 8th grade we had a class experiment one day. We were all outside on a bright and sunny day. We were instructed to line up boy/girl/boy/girl. The experiment started with one girl at the end of the line holding an orange under her chin. The instructions were simple. Pass the orange from one end of the line to the other without using any hands. The purpose of the game was not to test coordination. It was to teach us to be comfortable with people in our "personal space" for a specific reason and with our consent. That part usually goes unnoticed by the students. But it is something people need to learn.

Of course all this stops far short of the military. Imagine standing so close to a person who is sitting on a toilet doing number two that your toes are touching his. And when you sit down, the guy behind you will be that close to you. In my case it was 108 men sharing six toilets. And you all went when you were told to, whether you thought you needed to or not. It wasn't just to get you out of your comfort zone or 'break you down' as many call it. It was meant to establish a commonality, one among many. You all get the same haircut, wear the same clothes, follow the same rules, etc. It turns you in to a group who see each other as equals and teammates.

In the public sector we do as much as we can to break down those kinds of feelings among people. Everyone is special. Everyone deserves something no ones else gets. I can do what I want and you have to respect me. I want a gold star just for showing up.

What these girls said in that meeting is similar in nature to what a group of girls said back when I was in high school. They discovered that one of the female gym teachers was a lesbian. She had on occasion showered with the students. Many of the students saw no difference between her being there than a man being there. Both had the potential to view them in a sexual manner, and they didn't like it. The teacher was told to not shower with the students any more. But that only addressed the issue of the teacher. What about the students who were gay? They still had the potential to view the other students in a sexual manner.

Whether you want to admit it or not, it is difficult to see a member of the gender you are attracted to in the nude and not think of that person in some sexual way. Having the thoughts does not mean you will act on them. But just knowing that someone is looking at you that way is uncomfortable for some people, especially when they are at an age when they are not even completely comfortable with themselves. Add the issue of gender to that, regardless of the clothing options selected, and it is a very real pressure that these kids should not have to deal with. Being a kid is hard enough already without having a lot of adult social/ethical/moral/legal issues to worry about.

a reply to: Vroomfondel

Add to that:

Reverse the genders at work here. Let's say this was a girl who felt she was a boy and demanded access to the boys' locker room in this manner. No one worries about what the non-trans girls might do to the trans girl, but what might a bunch of non-trans boys do to a trans boy? There is a safety issue at work here.

And if we wouldn't let a physical girl shower with a bunch of boys both to protect her/him and to protect them, then why do we force the reverse situation on the girls and trans-girl? Simply because no one thinks a bunch of girls are going to beat up and/or rape a trans-girl?

Why do we hold that double standard and just because the girls are less likely to act out their discomfort and upset with the situation in physical ways doesn't mean they aren't feeling and expressing their own forms of aggression. And if the trans girl is still receiving aggression (and she is), then is this really a healthy situation for her?

Not to mention, is the trans girl really understands what its like to be a girl, then she should have empathy for what the other girls are feeling, right? If there is no empathy, then maybe this isn't a matter of being a girl so much as a matter of something else bathed in selfishness.

People should have the option to change, shower, use the restroom ... in private.

Period.

double post.

How ironic ... the wailing and gnashing of teeth over "privacy" when there has never been any privacy in such public spaces ...

... but it's okay for girls to be embarrassed in front of other girls and boys in front of other boys, right?

They should just suck it up, right? Whiny little beeches.

...

...

... er, ... wait ...

originally posted by: NightSkyeB4Dawn
a reply to: Revolution9

One could almost say that the state education system is using this psychologically to collectivise students and exercise so great a power to even have them disrobing publically and exposing themselves willingly just because the state says it is normal behaviour. It is not normal behaviour.

Taking a break in between tasks. I swore I was just going to be a lurker today, so much for that promise. Merry Christmas or Happy Holidays, by the way.

First I have to disagree that it is not natural behavior to go naked in public. Ask any child, "before", they were forcefully prevented from running around in the raw, what feels natural; clothes or no clothes?

I am not an official nudist, but I live in the woods, and I can tell you, nothing feels as good or as natural as taking a God shower and air drying, as you walk around nude outside. That is why many people enjoy the guilty pleasure of skinny dipping, and many walk around their homes with as few clothes as they can get away with.

Wearing clothes is a societal expectation in our countries. There are tribes were clothing is an option. I am almost as old as dirt. We had gym classes and the girls undressed, showered, and re-dressed among each other and it was not because the State made it mandatory, and there were no spectators filing in to watch a bunch of skinny, naked girls, or boys in the locker rooms.

I am sorry you had an unfortunate experience, but some of the responsibility of that event has to fall on your shoulders as well. I am sure it was more than a shock for the owner to find a naked intruder on his vessel when he returned. What if the person coming back to the boat was his young daughter?

I am sure if you can step back from the situation a bit and look at it from the side of the owner of the vessel, you can see why he was so angry. You know that you meant no harm, and was just taking advantage of what you thought was an opportunity. I am sure being an intruder on his boat was a problem in itself, being naked just compounded the problem. The owner didn't know you or your intentions, so some may say the owner showed much restraint.

Children and nudity is quite natural. I think it says a lot about us as a society when children are being taught that nudity is perverse, and that they have to fear being seen in the body they were born in. It says a lot and it is a little more than disturbing.

Again, may your holidays bring you joy.

Well, I actually like sunbathing naked in a secret place I know where nobody can see me. I do it every summer, but I would never do this in front of another person (except a like minded partner perhaps who I was comfortable with and they with me, too).

Yes, I look at it from the boat owner's point of view, too. However, it does not take five blokes twice the size of me to do that. Is that fair? Especially when I did not have a weapon or even shout. They knew I was unwell, too. I was very confused. Surely, the civilized thing would have been to alert the authorities or do you condone a good old fashioned beating for anyone who is having a bi polar episode? I was not naked either when the found me. They took from me what I was shielding myself with.

Anyway, that is another matter. I have just shown you how uncomfortable people have always been around public nudity. It is not acceptable is it to go shopping nude. If you do that then you will got to prison. Does that not tell us how uncomfortable nearly all the world's societies are with public nudity.

Is it only ok, too, if you are gender conforming? So if you are transgender you must be banned from being naked in from of others because liberal behaviour only tolerates a narrow perception and definition of who is allowed to appear naked unto others.

At least have the liberal decency to accept transgender people then into the naturalist community. If you think it is ok for kids then surely it must be ok for all kids. Why should it be confined to same gender then anyhow? Why not just blow the whole cover and have mixed changing rooms where everyone can change and shower together then if it is all ok?

I can only stress the word choice. For some kids it is traumatic. Now we have the transgender issue to consider, too. Does it not seem a better way round this to have private areas? Seems like common sense to me. Why not have a choice?

At school we had no choice. In the swimming pools we went to there was choice. There were cubicle changing rooms, public changing areas, cubicle showers and public showers. I always used the private areas. I had a choice there. At school I just hid from the teachers so they did not know I had not had a shower. I got away with it every time.

You must accept there is an issue here. Now I welcome transgender people. They do not offend me. However, I neither want people to see me naked or to see others naked. I apply that to every body. I want a right to physical privacy.

We know there is an issue with nakedness at large. All the way back to Adam and Eve it goes with their hiding their shame. Give the kids a choice, lol, whether they want to wear the proverbial fig leaves or not.



If the whole of society was accepting of nakedness it would not matter a hoot to anyone as we would all be so used to it. In an Amazonian tribal situation it would no longer matter to me. However, in England it does matter because society makes it matter.

I know totally where you are coming from. I don't have a problem with it. I think we as humans deserve choice. That is the healthiest way to approach modern society as we are becoming so different to each other now as we express our individuality.

Happy Holidays to you, too. Hope you are having a good day.

a reply to: Revolution9

Perhaps we should leave barbarism behind and include private spaces within all public facilities.

Oh, and include a bidet feature in all toilets, speaking of eschewing barbarism.

a reply to: Gryphon66

I'm all in favor of this.


Yet, at the same time, I find out desperate clutching at threads to cover the sin of our bodies pathetic.

I find it sad that children, adults, and teenagers are anything but comfortable in their own skin...and that thanks to religious doctrination, whether we adhere to that thought process or not (just like circumcision), we are still saddled with the practice.

Flesh.....we all have it. Silly that it's so damned taboo.

a reply to: nullafides

Oh, I'm with you on that, although, many higher mammals seem to prefer "privacy" for some functions.

But the wailing and gnashing of teeth over trans folks in bathrooms to me is silly.

Make em all private; should have been anyway.

Also, bidets.

originally posted by: nullafides
a reply to: Gryphon66

I'm all in favor of this.


Yet, at the same time, I find out desperate clutching at threads to cover the sin of our bodies pathetic.

I find it sad that children, adults, and teenagers are anything but comfortable in their own skin...and that thanks to religious doctrination, whether we adhere to that thought process or not (just like circumcision), we are still saddled with the practice.

Flesh.....we all have it. Silly that it's so damned taboo.

It is, and maybe if society were less hypersexualized, we could work on that. But you can't have a society that turns everything into sex 24/7 and then demand we don't see everything in terms of sex when it's inconvenient for that to happen.

a reply to: ketsuko

... but it's okay for gay kids to be forced into that hypersexualized situation, eh?

There's not that many of them, after all. Who cares, right?

originally posted by: Gryphon66
a reply to: ketsuko

... but it's okay for gay kids to be forced into that hypersexualized situation, eh?

There's not that many of them, after all. Who cares, right?

We're all forced into it.

I am talking about society at large, for all of us gay or straight.

a reply to: ketsuko

Right, so being "forced into" a situation that could make you uncomfortable is okay in some cases, not in others?

For example, the girls in the first case don't want to be "forced into" a situation with anatomical males ... because, reasons.

But it's okay for the gay girl or two in the class to be forcibly immersed in a hypersexualized situation and require her not to have any reaction, right?

Either right's right for all or it's wrong ... for all.

You are fine with telling some kids to "get over it" while kowtowing to what kids require?

That's my issue with these situations; zero equity.

Make all these spaces private, or provide a private option at least.

a reply to: ketsuko



Where you blame society, I see it as human nature. Something that is both instinctual and hormonal.

We are far too busy anthropomorphizing ourselves into some holy, angelic creature...rather than the base animals that we are at our core.

So bang away on your "it's societies fault" drums...

I thoroughly disagree.

originally posted by: nullafides
a reply to: ketsuko



Where you blame society, I see it as human nature. Something that is both instinctual and hormonal.

We are far too busy anthropomorphizing ourselves into some holy, angelic creature...rather than the base animals that we are at our core.

So bang away on your "it's societies fault" drums...

I thoroughly disagree.

OK, whatever, you started it with the opining about silly body taboos.

People tend to cover their bodies because of sexual impulse and sexual desire and reason to thwart the same. When society pushes sex in everything 24/7 with the message you just parroted that it's normal and natural because we are sexual beings, then we look at our bodies and each other in a sexual manner and therefore, you have the desire to perpetuate those taboos.

You want to end them?

Then you need to decouple sex from our bodies. But so long as we are sexualizing them, that isn't going to happen.

a reply to: TrueBrit

That's about as close to a happy medium as we're going to find.

Though getting that into a budget for school construction is going to be dicey, to say the least...though I might be selling the voter short on this issue.

originally posted by: seagull
a reply to: TrueBrit

That's about as close to a happy medium as we're going to find.

Though getting that into a budget for school construction is going to be dicey, to say the least...though I might be selling the voter short on this issue.

Honestly, I don't think it would have to cost that much to add partitions to a locker room....really.

a reply to: nullafides

Not so much the amount of money, but the purpose for the money.

But people have surprised me before. Sometimes even pleasantly.