Rise of the Radical Religious Right-(Read it first, b4 you decide to lynch me)

originally posted by: BuzzyWigs

Yes. Except Bachmann for sure also.

See, the thing about these Dominionists is that they operate "under the radar". On purpose.

She has those crazy eyes. Reminds me of The Dark Crystal. When it's used to suck the essence from the slaves. You remember that movie??? The Slave Squeezer!!!

a reply to: mOjOm

Just making sure we we're on the same page.

originally posted by: BuzzyWigs
a reply to: GeisterFahrer

Could it be at all possible that maybe you are wrong?

You asked mOjOm this question.

The answer is "no." He is not wrong. The US was not founded as a Christian nation, no matter how much you insist that it was.

I am not the one "insisting' that it was. It is a historical fact. You really, really, sound ignorant.

Research is apparently not your forte. You haven't read the Treaty of Paris have you?

here - let me direct you to the Library of Congress ....

www.loc.gov...

click on the highlighted "Treaty of Paris" after you have absorbed what this document was, and read the very first sentence. Thank you.

a reply to: GeisterFahrer

...sigh.... Okay ..... let's look at your linked source.....

is this the precious sentence you want to point out?

The Treaty of Paris ended the Revolutionary War between Great Britain and the United States, recognized American independence and established borders for the new nation.

I know all about Henry 8, the CoE, the English Civil War, the reasons the Puritans left England with the Dutch, etc. I not only could, but have written a book about it.

I went to your highlighted link Treaty of Paris (the Lehrman institute), and did a search within it for "religion." No hits. Then did an internal search for "Christian". No hits. Not even one.

So - whatever your point is, that info has nothing to do with this country being founded as a Christian nation.

Now, I'm going to do some work for you, to help you understand that you are mistaken:

Is America a Christian Nation?

Is the United States a "Christian nation"? Some Americans think so. Religious Right activists and right-wing television preachers often claim that the United States was founded to be a Christian nation. Even some politicians agree. If the people who make this assertion are merely saying that most Americans are Christians, they might have a point. But those who argue that America is a Christian nation usually mean something more, insisting that the country should be officially Christian. The very character of our country is at stake in the outcome of this debate.

Religious Right groups and their allies insist that the United States was designed to be officially Christian and that our laws should enforce the doctrines of (their version of) Christianity.

Is this viewpoint accurate?

Is there anything in the Constitution that gives special treatment or preference to Christianity?

Did the founders of our government believe this or intend to create a government that gave special recognition to Christianity?

The answer to all of these questions is no.

5 Reasons America is Not, and Has Never Been, a Christian Nation

The Origins of the Christian-Nation Myth

This last point provides the key to understanding the staying power of the Christian-nation myth. The myth’s origins go back not to the founding period but to a much different time in history—the post-Civil War era.

Founding Fathers: We Are Not a Christian Nation

We really need to stop this ridiculous argument about being a Christian nation. If there should be any doubt, let us listen to the founding fathers themselves.

This from Thomas Jefferson in an April 11, 1823, letter to John Adams:

"The day will come when the mystical generation of Jesus by the Supreme Being in the womb of a virgin, will be classed with the fable of the generation of Minerva in the brain of Jupiter. ... But we may hope that the dawn of reason and freedom of thought in these United States will do away with all this artificial scaffolding...."

These are not the words of a man who wishes to establish a Christian theocracy. Jefferson promoted tolerance above all and said earlier that his statute for religious freedom in Virginia was "meant to comprehend, within the mantle of its protection, the Jew and the Gentile, the Christian and the Mohammeden, the Hindoo and Infidel of every denomination." He specifically wished to avoid the dominance of a single religion.


Let us be perfectly clear: We are not now, nor have we ever been, a Christian nation. Our founding fathers explicitly and clearly excluded any reference to "God" or "the Almighty" or any euphemism for a higher power in the Constitution. Not one time is the word "god" mentioned in our founding document.

Not one time.

The facts of our history are easy enough to verify. Anybody who ignorantly insists that our nation is founded on Christian ideals need only look at the four most important documents from our early history -- the Declaration of Independence, the Articles of Confederation, the Federalist Papers and the Constitution -- to disprove that ridiculous religious bias. All four documents unambiguously prove our secular origins.

www.earlyamerica.com...

.......
and many others. But I'm confident you will dismiss all links I provide just on principle, so, I'll refer you back to your assignment (the Treaty of Paris). No where in that link or the embedded link is the issue even discussed.

How very tedious you people are.....

So, go ahead and insult my intelligence all you want......(very Christian behavior!) (really!)
you're still wrong.

originally posted by: BuzzyWigs
a reply to: GeisterFahrer

...sigh.... Okay ..... let's look at your linked source.....

is this the precious sentence you want to point out?

The Treaty of Paris ended the Revolutionary War between Great Britain and the United States, recognized American independence and established borders for the new nation.

I know all about Henry 8, the CoE, the English Civil War, the reasons the Puritans left England with the Dutch, etc. I not only could, but have written a book about it.

I went to your highlighted link Treaty of Paris (the Lehrman institute), and did a search within it for "religion." No hits. Then did an internal search for "Christian". No hits. Not even one.

So - whatever your point is, that info has nothing to do with this country being founded as a Christian nation.

Now, I'm going to do some work for you, to help you understand that you are mistaken:

Is America a Christian Nation?

Is the United States a "Christian nation"? Some Americans think so. Religious Right activists and right-wing television preachers often claim that the United States was founded to be a Christian nation. Even some politicians agree. If the people who make this assertion are merely saying that most Americans are Christians, they might have a point. But those who argue that America is a Christian nation usually mean something more, insisting that the country should be officially Christian. The very character of our country is at stake in the outcome of this debate.

Religious Right groups and their allies insist that the United States was designed to be officially Christian and that our laws should enforce the doctrines of (their version of) Christianity.

Is this viewpoint accurate?

Is there anything in the Constitution that gives special treatment or preference to Christianity?

Did the founders of our government believe this or intend to create a government that gave special recognition to Christianity?

The answer to all of these questions is no.

5 Reasons America is Not, and Has Never Been, a Christian Nation

The Origins of the Christian-Nation Myth

This last point provides the key to understanding the staying power of the Christian-nation myth. The myth’s origins go back not to the founding period but to a much different time in history—the post-Civil War era.

Founding Fathers: We Are Not a Christian Nation

We really need to stop this ridiculous argument about being a Christian nation. If there should be any doubt, let us listen to the founding fathers themselves.

This from Thomas Jefferson in an April 11, 1823, letter to John Adams:

"The day will come when the mystical generation of Jesus by the Supreme Being in the womb of a virgin, will be classed with the fable of the generation of Minerva in the brain of Jupiter. ... But we may hope that the dawn of reason and freedom of thought in these United States will do away with all this artificial scaffolding...."

These are not the words of a man who wishes to establish a Christian theocracy. Jefferson promoted tolerance above all and said earlier that his statute for religious freedom in Virginia was "meant to comprehend, within the mantle of its protection, the Jew and the Gentile, the Christian and the Mohammeden, the Hindoo and Infidel of every denomination." He specifically wished to avoid the dominance of a single religion.


Let us be perfectly clear: We are not now, nor have we ever been, a Christian nation. Our founding fathers explicitly and clearly excluded any reference to "God" or "the Almighty" or any euphemism for a higher power in the Constitution. Not one time is the word "god" mentioned in our founding document.

Not one time.

The facts of our history are easy enough to verify. Anybody who ignorantly insists that our nation is founded on Christian ideals need only look at the four most important documents from our early history -- the Declaration of Independence, the Articles of Confederation, the Federalist Papers and the Constitution -- to disprove that ridiculous religious bias. All four documents unambiguously prove our secular origins.

www.earlyamerica.com...

.......
and many others. But I'm confident you will dismiss all links I provide just on principle, so, I'll refer you back to your assignment (the Treaty of Paris). No where in that link or the embedded link is the issue even discussed.

How very tedious you people are.....

So, go ahead and insult my intelligence all you want......(very Christian behavior!) (really!)
you're still wrong.

It is amazing to me that you authored an entire book, yet neglected to cite the very first sentence of the The Treaty of Paris.

One has to wonder why you would intentionally not do that ....one has to also wonder why if this was intentional obtuseness.

"In the name of the Most Holy and Undivided Trinity."

^ That is the first sentence of the The Treaty of Paris. You apparently are overlooking (intentionally, I am assuming) the very historical facts pointing out that the United States was founded on Christian Principles.

Period ....

a reply to: GeisterFahrer

It is amazing to me that you authored an entire book, yet neglected to cite the very first sentence of the The Treaty of Paris.

One has to wonder why you would intentionally not do that ....one has to also wonder why if this was intentional obtuseness.

I was following your instructions.

LOL!!!!!

Yes, it was intentional obtuseness. I saw "the sentence" after several further searches ..... (because your instructions didn't work) and read it.

I saw that it talks about King George as "by the Grace of God" ruler yada yada yada.........
It was required of people back then. EVERY citizen of England had to refer/defer to the King as the "annointed by God" leader of their country. (Cruz wants to be that guy, too!). If they did not refer to him as such (by divine right and privilege, ruler of whatever), they could be thrown in prison/the tower, for treason. So, they ALL said it. Every time. Sorta like, you know, being able to utter the phrase in Arabic that talks about "God".

It [ your 'sentence' ] also talks about a "Supreme Divine Eternal Creator Power" or some such thing.....which is fine (I was raised in the Episcopal church).
Nevertheless, [your 'sentence' ] does not once mention "Jesus".

These guys were Deists. Whether you like it or not. For more info, refer to: The Enlightenment.

(not even going to bother to give you a link for it; Google is your friend)
I have also absorbed that there is a semantic dysfunction between us.

The debate has devolved into whether "Christian VALUES (or 'principles)" are included in the founding of the US, or "the Christian RELIGION" was included.

The latter, my dear cyber-acquaintance, was not.

The "values" that the USA uses for social coherence (and most citizens - or at least, liberal ones also use) are nothing other than
The Golden Rule.

It has existed throughout human recorded history. It is not exclusive to any "faith."
It is merely human common sense.

If you'd like links, let me know.
Otherwise, I can't be bothered at this moment to hold your hand while you learn.

Common sense would tell you that the sentence - "In the name of the Most Holy and Undivided Trinity" - doesn't specifically address "the golden rule". It isn't even a part of Judaism, Islam, Sikhism, Buddhism, Neopaganism, Polytheism, Hellenism, Ayyavhazism, Rastafarianism, Shabakism, et. el.

It is ... specifically ... a Christian belief.

So, there you have it. It is NOT secularism - and yes, those of us that are educated do know the futile attempt to insert and impose that on the rest of us.

a reply to: GeisterFahrer

Wait - are you saying The Trinity is only taught in Christianity? Or "The Golden Rule" is only in Christianity?

I think what you are pointing out is verbiage used in the Treaty included "words" that reflect Christianity....
obviously it does. As I said, they were breaking away from King George (and the British Church of England), therefore had to be cautious and not go full-out "denial" of faith.....so?

You think "PC" is a new thing? Yeah - that phrasing was total PC......

Yet, the Founding Fathers insisted that the new country was not in any sense a Christian nation - some bloke using a religious phrase in a document DOES NOT A CHRISTIAN COUNTRY make. The country was founded to allow for all religious beliefs. It is a main tenet of the Constitution. You are free to be a Christian, a Muslim, a Jew, a None, or whatever. From Day One.


ETA: Oh, and "you really, really sound ignorant." *eyeroll*

a reply to: GeisterFahrer

It is amazing to me that you authored an entire book, yet neglected to cite the very first sentence of the The Treaty of Paris.

My novel was not about the Treaty of Paris. It takes place prior to the English Civil War in the mid-17th century (that's the 1600s, junior). That's why the Treaty of Paris was not mentioned or discussed in my novel in any way.

I spent two years studying the history of what was happening in England during the reign of King Charles.....and wrote about that.

Perhaps I'll get to the Treaty of Paris in a future volume based on my ancestors of that time period. But, I do know what I'm talking about regarding the English Civil War, protestantism, religious persecution, etc IN THE 17th century.

originally posted by: GeisterFahrer
Common sense would tell you that the sentence - "In the name of the Most Holy and Undivided Trinity" - doesn't specifically address "the golden rule". It isn't even a part of Judaism, Islam, Sikhism, Buddhism, Neopaganism, Polytheism, Hellenism, Ayyavhazism, Rastafarianism, Shabakism, et. el.

It is ... specifically ... a Christian belief.

So, there you have it. It is NOT secularism - and yes, those of us that are educated do know the futile attempt to insert and impose that on the rest of us.

Unfortunately those educated by Pat Robertson, Jerry Falwell, and the Liberty University are giving non-dominionist christians a bad name, and causing a lot of folks to paint them with a very broad and evil brush.

a reply to: BuzzyWigs

First time I've ever heard THAT one.
Like we send missionaries overseas by the same idea as Islam is plagued with Jihadists.
UNLESS you are simply labeling TRADITIONAL American values.
then have at you.

a reply to: cavtrooper7

Talking more about the types of Christian Missionaries who go to Uganda (and other places) and tell people to kill their kids who seem "possessed" and to kill gays......and who have counterparts here.....
you think they don't exist?

Plenty of info about the Dominionists available, here on ATS and out there in the big wide cyberworld.

If you've never heard it, that does not mean it doesn't exist.
Like I said, they've been flying under the radar (deliberately) with their insurgent aims.
Let me know if you'd like more data.

Have a great night, cav!!!





The Left Must Accept that Ted Cruz is the Dominionist Messiah

It's real.

My state's Governor is one of them.

a reply to: BuzzyWigs

OK shoot them too,problem solved.
Oh wait you guys don't have guns...and what in the profane name of Lemmy did you think a liberal site WOULD say...do better.
Sounds like more trumped up P.C. insecurity looking for a pigeon hole in which to define all Christianity.
Uh,uh.
We don't buy it.
It's another attempt to undermine beliefs like the Govt. seeking to infiltrate it with Obama's"army"...calltodiscernment.blogspot.com...
It

Define "TEA PARTY" and close the deal for us please>

a reply to: cavtrooper7

OK shoot them too,problem solved.
Oh wait you guys don't have guns...and what in the profane name of Lemmy did you think a liberal site WOULD say...do better.
Sounds like more trumped up P.C. insecurity looking for a pigeon hole in which to define all Christianity.
Uh,uh.
We don't buy it.

What in the HELL are you talking about?

Okay - give me a minute to digest this, and I'll respond as I go along.......

Here we go:

1. Shoot whom?

2.a. "Us guys" don't have guns? I have guns. My husband has guns. He's a veteran, and taught me how to shoot, and I now have a 38 special and a ruger 22 at my disposal. He keeps the magnum in reach for himself.....
b. "do better" than what?


3. It's not "trumped up" (heh, cute pun) PC insecurity. It's a faction of Christianity that exists, and is active in government. From dog-catcher to POTUS, from sheriff to governor.......
these folks, subversive and "gone to ground", are real.

4. You buying it or not has nothing to do with it.

-----------------

Gotta end this now.

It's another attempt to undermine beliefs like the Govt. seeking to infiltrate it with Obama's"army"...calltodiscernment.blogspot.com...
It

Define "TEA PARTY" and close the deal for us please>

I'll be back later on to finish my response to your post.

Have a good night, cav!

a reply to: cavtrooper7


Your source:
calltodiscernment.blogspot.com...

Call To Discernment

Calling Christians to Biblical Christianity in lieu of watered-down, entertainment oriented churchianity. Christians must have discernment in all areas of life in this end time of deception, realizing also that American leadership of both political parties are leading us into the New World Order of the coming antichrist. Do not be conformed to this world. Rom. 12:2. Expose the deeds of darkness. Eph. 5:11. "He that is not zealous against error, is not likely to be zealous for truth." J.C. Ryle

Wow. This really reveals a lot to me, in all sincerity. Thank you for sharing.

I'm not going to respond to your 'TEA PARTY' thing. I don't know that much about them. I do know about the Dominionists, and (my fellow citizen), it might behoove you to familiarize yourself with them (The Dominionists & Co) as well.

Amazing how people who criticize Muslims for not integrating with America won’t ever do the same with the RRR.

It’s alright for them to have anti-American values but Muslims get criticized for valuing their religious principles over the secular philosophy


Also there is the RRR and just the secular right wing as well that is a danger, within the radical right.

The guy who murdered those black Christians in that church and Tim McVey, both radical righties without religion.


So you have the religious righties who might kill an Abortion doctor or advocate killing gays and just the radical right who might kill anybody that is a danger.

originally posted by: cavtrooper7
Obama's"army"...calltodiscernment.blogspot.com...

Define "TEA PARTY" and close the deal for us please>

So you're ignoring the mountain of evidence pointing out the Dominionist/Reconstructionist arm of Christianity and it's political influence which includes not just 3rd party reporting on the subject but the FACT that they've even admitted to it themselves.

But you do believe a blog post from a site called calltodiscernment when it warns you of Obama's Army coming to wipe out Christianity???

You don't see any problem with that line of reasoning???

That's fascinating to me, it really is. Not in a cool way though, like "Wow, look at that, isn't it fascinating??" But more like, "Wow, look at that, isn't that just un-f*cking-believable!!"

a reply to: cavtrooper7

Umm....just out of boredom and curiosity, I went to look at more of your linked source.....Call To Discernment

I went to the homepage. (interested readers may scroll up a couple of posts for the original link that catrooper posted)....


I have to say, cav, this is one of the most disturbing sites I have ever seen.

a reply to: mOjOm

Do you mean Jesuits?

a reply to: BuzzyWigs

The one single thing that is true in all of this is NOBODY'S got the whole picture,don't follow the parade that leads off a cliff.
We ,as Christians are NOT to punish anyone or rule over them we say our piece and go.
As Americans we will do so as we please and if someone is displeased with our religious structures may I politely suggest instead of attacking,which ...quite shortly I 'm guessing will come to a head, make your OWN churches ,schools. don't force yourselves on ours.
Politeness counts I haven't seen that as being a strong suit with the left
And I am a pessimist so here we are.
I'm also a heavy metal fan they wouldn't like ME either.
A former Ranger told me 10 % of the book "Behold a pale horse" was dead on.
He shot himself in 12.