Fascism is Not Right Wing, it is socialist.

originally posted by: M5xaz

originally posted by: DJW001
a reply to: ElectricUniverse

Stalin was a left wing dictator, not right wing.

Then why did Trotsky oppose his move away from internationalism? Why did Stalin sign a mutual non-aggression pact with Hitler, the ultimate right wing demagogue?

Nazism (Nationalsozialistische Deutsche Arbeiterpartei) was socialism, not right wing, as indicated previously
Google it again

Therein lies the problem. Armchair internet know-it-alls seem to think that Google can teach them everything they need to know about this topic, yet scholars, historians and accredited researchers come to a consensus on it being a right-wing ideology and we just toss it aside.

What's really funny is that this is what it says on the first link on a Google search:

National Socialism (German: Nationalsozialismus), more commonly known as Nazism (/ˈnɑːtsɪzəm, ˈnæ-/[1]), is the ideology and practice associated with the 20th-century German Nazi Party and Nazi state as well as other far-right groups

en.wikipedia.org...

Political ideology is more circular than linear. If you go far enough in either direction you end up with fascism.

originally posted by: introvert
a reply to: M5xaz

I don't believe we have ever conversed before. So let start by saying hi.

Hi.

As for your post, I said earlier that this issue is much more complicated than simply reading the words used at that time, applying our current understanding, and being able to tell the exact context of what was meant. It's like modern man looking at Egyptian hieroglyphics, seeing a symbol that looks like a UFO or a helicopter and coming to the conclusion that the Egyptians hung-out with aliens and they had helicopters to fly around in.

We view things, and understand things, based on what we know through our current paradigm. There is a reason why smart people study this topic for years to come to the conclusions they have. The consensus among researchers and historians is that the Nazi was a right-wing ideology. They don't simply base their opinion on superficial facts. It's based on research and context.

Also, there is economic information that shows the Nazis were funded and supported by anti-communists and capitalists. That would include Henry Ford and J Edgar Hoover.

As a last piece of info, did you know that Einstein was very vocal that he was a socialist and vowed to always be so because he never wanted to become what the Nazis became?

Umm no.

Your premise of changing definitions is totally false - we are note talking thousands of years ago, as per your false strawman.

With respect to Einstein and Socialism, many other 30s, 40s and 50s icons were self-declared socialist, who recoiled when the horrors of Stalinism became public.

If he had lived that long to know about it, do you think Einstein would have supported Stalin ?

With respect to Hoover, he fought Nazis, even reneged on plea deal in '42 with captured Nazi spies.


Placing more control in fewer hands, over not just government but the public economy as socialism aims to do has been disaster, for 100 + years.

The biggest open air prison in the world, the Iron Curtain, was socialist

You are the one trying to change historical facts, over the dead bodies of tens of millions/

a reply to: xuenchen

Jump into it, you mean. I have little interest in devoting any seriousness to what amounts to propagandistic bullying. What I've seen here--much abuse of terminology, with astonishingly little understanding of histories, people, and ideas--appalls me. Fascism (strict, authoritarian ideology backed by the state) couldn't possibly be further from socialism (common ownership of means of production), yet somehow, the OP (and, by proxy, you) have managed to denude these concepts to the point of uselessness--except, of course, for your own ideological ends.

Pro tip: try as you might, putting quotes around the word definitions doesn't render the actual definitions subjective in the least. But bravo for trying. *golf clap*

a reply to: introvert

Ah yes.

Excellent biased sources in all that.

a reply to: TramperoJuan

Well?

a reply to: M5xaz

You are the one trying to change historical facts, over the dead bodies of tens of millions/

A logical fallacy. An appeal to emotion.

With respect to Einstein and Socialism, many other 30s, 40s and 50s icons were self-declared socialist, who recoiled when the horrors of Stalinism became public.

If he had lived that long to know about it, do you think Einstein would have supported Stalin ?

Einstein lived 2 years longer than Stalin and even had some things to say about him:

(Yes, Albert Einstein was a lifelong communist and supporter of the Soviet Union of Lenin and Stalin, and wrote a book defending socialism, called “On Socialism.”)

“The Russians have proved that their only aim is really the improvement of the lot of the Russian people.” –Albert Einstein on his refusal to sign a petition in 1934 condemning alleged (and false) claims of murders of prisoners by Joseph Stalin.

“There are increasing signs the Russian trials are not faked, but that there is a plot among those who look upon Stalin as a stupid reactionary who has betrayed the ideas of the revolution.” –Comrade Einstein speaking against critics of the trials of traitors within the Communist Party of the Soviet Union.

An anti-communist critic of Albert Einstein’s political views (a hack attacking a genius): “Einstein’s only failing was an unfortunate [sic] fondness for Stalin and the Soviet Union.” — Christopher Hitchens.

internationalstalinsociety.wordpress.com...

Einstein was known for being a communist sympathizer.

The fact that Nazi's called themselves The National Socialist Party means nothing, It's a misnomer. North Koreans call themselves The Democratic People's Republic of Korea, and we all know the truth, but I'm sure in the future someone will look back at North Korea and say "nope, they weren't ruled by a tyrant they were a democratic republic! Look at their name."

Remember the famous quote from Niemoller "First they came for the socialists, and I said nothing cause I wasn't a socialist..."

yep, the first group Nazi's came for was socialists. the 2nd group they came for were the unionists, but ...but...but...the left.

Hitler himself wrote about deliberately choosing the color red, and infiltrating the socialist party but it might require researching without a conformation bias to find it.

Oh look, it's another thread that utter fails to understand basic historical facts and actually seeks to blur said facts with libertarian rubbish from people who never really studied history. I don't normally paste links to the Daily Telegraph, as I view it as a nasty right-wing rag, but here's a piece that addresses a few facts.

a reply to: neo96

I don't think a military present benefits people, I think it exacerbates situations, but that is a different topic.

Thinking men (and women, people, but it's a turn of phrase) don't resort to violence before all other intellectual rigour has been applied. In our current system not easy to achieve.

I don't understand about your refernce about taxes and currency. Please could you elaborate? I don't understand how you get from one to the other.

a reply to: AngryCymraeg

I also avoid the Daily Telegraph, even if it given away for free at my local garage, but he does have a point and it is a clear articulation of facts.

All History is biased as it is retrospective, and people can manipulate it from various interpretations.

I am a liberal lefter, and do hold socialist ideals.

It just smacks of liberal ideals bashing, and I am getting pretty tired of it.

originally posted by: introvert

Therein lies the problem. Armchair internet know-it-alls seem to think that Google can teach them everything they need to know about this topic, yet scholars, historians and accredited researchers come to a consensus on it being a right-wing ideology and we just toss it aside.

What's really funny is that this is what it says on the first link on a Google search:
...

The majority of those researchers are left wing hence very biased... There are many others who have pointed out the fact that Hitler's policies were left wing... COMMON GOOD BEFORE INDIVIDUAL GOOD That is part of the 25 points of the NAZI party... Every policy of Hitler was left wing...

a reply to: mahatche

The North Koreans call themselves a democracy because they see it as such... Look at what Lenin himself stated...

Imperialism, Socialism, and the Liberation of Oppressed Nations

Imperialism is the highest stage of development of capitalism. Capital in the advanced countries has outgrown the boundaries of national states. It has established monopoly in place of competition, thus creating all the objective prerequisites for the achievement of socialism. Hence, in Western Europe and in the United States of America, the revolutionary struggle of the proletariat for the overthrow of the capitalist governments, for the expropriation of the bourgeoisie, is on the order of the day. Imperialism is forcing the masses into this struggle by sharpening class antagonisms to an immense degree, by worsening the conditions of the masses both economically—trusts and high cost of living, and politically—growth of militarism, frequent wars, increase of reaction, strengthening and extension of national oppression and colonial plunder. Victorious socialism must achieve complete democracy and, consequently, not only bring about the complete equality of nations, but also give effect to the right of oppressed nations to self-determination, i.e., the right to free political secession. Socialist Parties which fail to prove by all their activities now, as well as during the revolution and after its victory, that they will free the enslaved nations and establish relations with them on the basis of a free union and a free union is a lying phrase without right to secession—such parties would be committing treachery to socialism.
...

www.marxists.org...

Democracy is indispensable to socialism.

Vladimir Lenin

www.brainyquote.com...


In the eyes of communists, and socialists their ideals are part of a democracy... North Korea is a communist dictatorship.


After all, Lenin also said...

A lie told often enough becomes the truth.
Vladimir Lenin

www.brainyquote.com...

a reply to: ElectricUniverse

The North Koreans call themselves a democracy because they see it as such... Look at what Lenin himself stated...

And Hitler was an avowed Anti-Bolshevik. That makes him right wing, right?

a reply to: ElectricUniverse

The majority of those researchers are left wing hence very biased... There are many others who have pointed out the fact that Hitler's policies were left wing... COMMON GOOD BEFORE INDIVIDUAL GOOD That is part of the 25 points of the NAZI party... Every policy of Hitler was left wing...

After all, the NAZIs would never lie about their agenda.

originally posted by: ElectricUniverse

originally posted by: introvert

Therein lies the problem. Armchair internet know-it-alls seem to think that Google can teach them everything they need to know about this topic, yet scholars, historians and accredited researchers come to a consensus on it being a right-wing ideology and we just toss it aside.

What's really funny is that this is what it says on the first link on a Google search:
...

The majority of those researchers are left wing hence very biased... There are many others who have pointed out the fact that Hitler's policies were left wing... COMMON GOOD BEFORE INDIVIDUAL GOOD That is part of the 25 points of the NAZI party... Every policy of Hitler was left wing...

Please provide cites. Because as far as I am aware, having read reputable historians such as Bullock, Trevor-Roper and AJP Taylor, Nazism and Fascism were both right wing. And none of the historians I have just mentioned could possibly be classified as being left-wing. So I can only come to the correct conclusion, namely that you have not the faintest idea what you are talking about, other then to make some kind of risible political point in an attempt to justify your own political philosophy.

originally posted by: ElectricUniverse
a reply to: mahatche

The North Koreans call themselves a democracy because they see it as such... Look at what Lenin himself stated...

North Koreans have no say in what they are called, or much of anything else for that matter.

The rest of your post doesn't matter, we are talking about fascism. I don't care if someone uses the word democracy while ensuring that no democracy exists.

facism is only socialist if the intolerant (also known as socially conservative), nationalist, militant government also takes care of its people with robust social programs. if the intolerant, nationalist, militants cant even be bothered to raise enough revenue to take care of their own then those facists are "fiscal conservatives".

a reply to: ElectricUniverse

The majority of those researchers are left wing hence very biased...

And this is why we can never agree on this issue.

When all else fails and their assertion is shown to be false, people that claim these sorts of things have to resort to conspiracy.

"The researchers were left-wing and they rule over the consensus to hide the Leftist ways of Hitler and the Nazis".

That's pretty much what you're saying and it's ridiculous.

I love how the KKK got tied in to 'fascism'.

Although It was the RIGHT WING that freed the slaves, Started a war for the emancipation.

The KKK was formed by the LEFT WING as political group in OPPOSITION of the RIGHT WING.