Why NOT stop Muslims from entering the US?

a reply to: LesMisanthrope

All those freedoms specially the ones for the women, then you wonder why they have Muslim Affair consuls in the US advocating for the rights of Islamic law followers to exercise Sharia.

What that tells you, so much for trying to embrace the freedoms that the US constitution gives to Americans citizens and specially women.

The issue is bigger that just having foreigners trying to come to the US for a better life, more often than not is not what it seems.

a reply to: marg6043

Heck, I wouldn't worry so much about them exercising aspects of Shari'a if they did what the Amish do and retire themselves into their own communities, but they tend to externalize and express that desire on the society around them.

Orthodox Jew: I don't eat pork.

Muslim: I don't eat pork, so you can't either.

a reply to: ketsuko

I agree, but we can not ignore that is parts within the Muslim population that wants to embrace Islam without the attachments to the more radicalized Sharia law.

But they find themselves coerced by their Religious leaders into keeping all parts of the Islamic laws or else.

That is not what freedom of religious means.

If we ban Sharia law in America because is a danger to US national security and the well being of Muslims that do not want Sharia in their lives, we will be doing a favor to them and they would not have to take the coercion they are getting now from their religious leaders.

a reply to: ketsuko

A couple assumptions there. Though I'm not an Imam myself, so there's only so much I can answer.

If the ME is exporting Wahhabism, and we know it is and why. Then does each mosque have a say in who its imam is or not?

1. It would be easy if all Wahhabis were violent or extremists, but they're not. Like I said, it's actually an unofficial sub-sect that are the violent ones, which others call "Kharijites" (there's a different K-word for them too, but I forgot it).

2. Wahhabis hate the term "Wahhabi", and instead consider themselves "Salafis". But actual Salafis are a respected designation in many Islamic regions because they only follow the teachings of the Prophet Muhammad and his companions. So virtually all Wahhabis promote themselves as Salafis; and all Kharijites consider themselves Salafis too, soit becomes hard to tell who is who. I wrote about this in more detail in one of my only threads here.

3. Mosques can have guest speakers just like churches can. There are also famous/"celebrity" religious leaders and artists who can get permission to speak at different mosques, especially on special occasions (like Eid celebrations). Since I don't run a mosque, I don't have insight on the politics that determine who is allowed to come or why. But that's probably why law enforcement groups hold meetings with mosque leaderships, like they do with my dad & his colleague.

4. There are also different mosques for different denominations, as well as different mosques for different ethnic groups, nationalities, etc. Not all mosques are divided like that though (just think of how churches are). As an example, one of my favorite mosques is all-inclusive, meaning there are Sufis, Shiites, Sunnis, Wahhabis, and Salafis from who knows how many different countries. I don't have the slightest idea of how they select their Imams, though they usually have the same ones except on random occasions (see Answer #3).

If it does, then why do so many take in Salafis to preach Wahhabi-style radical Islam?

As I showed above, Salafis have a special place among many Islamic communities. They came before Sunni Islam, which represents up to 90% of Muslims. And many Sunnis believe the Salafi's path is "purer", though also harder to follow (which is why most Sunnis don't bother becoming Salafi). Remember, Islam is based on personal piety and dedication to God. So the more pious you are, the higher your status in Islam. As an example, I think a Shiite in specific sects cannot attain the title of "Ayatollah" until they memorize the entire Qur'an (don't quote me on that though, it might just be a rumor to make them seem more pious).

This is also specifically why Wahhabis hate the term "Wahhabi", and consider themselves Salafis instead. Wahhabi groups have done some terrible stuff over the years & the term is now slanderous, like calling someone a "vandal" or a "barbarian". And since not all Wahhabis are extremist/Kharijites, it gets even harder to distinguish who's who. So to answer your question, this is why some "Salafis" preach "Wahhabi-style" crap. This is also why Muslim groups report other Muslims when they start going "too far" in their rhetoric.

This is also why the radical Kharijites/fake Salafis target poor, disillusioned, and ignorant Sunnis for recruiting. Because those people literally don't know enough about Islam to know they're not real Salafis. So they get entranced with all of the new "knowledge" and "traditions" they hear and start becoming "radicalized". Plus the Kharijites typically have money, which can help lure those same demographics. This is why I recommend treating it like the programs we use to stop people from joining gangs & organized crime.

I'm not saying none of them fight it, but why do so many accept those Imams?

Not really sure how to answer that. I think the rest of my post already did? Just remember, Sunnis and Salafis are different; Salafis are usually highly respected by Sunnis; Wahhabi aren't respected as "Wahhabis" so they consider themselves "Salafis" to be accepted by most Muslims; and there's a sub-sect of Wahhabis referred to as Kharjities who also disguise themselves as Salafis. They're the real "wolf among the sheep", but good luck stopping them. As long as the West keeps backing their powerbrokers, there's nothing we normal Muslims can do about them.

In this conversation were forgetting the fact that these people are programmed, indoctrinated in a unique form of religion that is very sectarian.

Very exclusive, “My religion is the only truth and all others are dammed”


I’m doing something I never do. A major OP on Wahhabism.

I don’t like singling out a particular sect but this has got to be done

And I don’t like long threads. Ill try to make this basic and simple.
The elephant in the room is being ignored and that is unacceptable.

In a day or two I will have, maybe, a major OP on Wahhabism.

Since if you went to all the jihadis in jail now….I think all of them would be Wahhabis!

People don’t realize that there are numerous schools of thought in Islam, and numerous sects and they don’t do this stuff.

This is ALL Wahhabi /Salafi deeds

And that is a small, but burgeoning sect in Islam made important by Saudi oil wealth peddling their sectarian poison all over the world.

Stay tuned

originally posted by: enlightenedservant
A couple assumptions there. Though I'm not an Imam myself, so there's only so much I can answer.

That is a curious statement. Can you elaborate on it please? I am not being facetious.

a reply to: marg6043

The Muslims, as with all immigrants I know, fully embrace they culture of their homeland. I don't have enough information to judge otherwise.

Immersion into the language and culture is usually all that is required. And that goes for everywhere. If you've lived in any other culture than the one you're you're used to you might agree. Sure you seem like "the other" for a little while, but smiles and adopting the civility of the community ends that pretty quick. It's a tried and true method of becoming a part of the community.

originally posted by: LesMisanthrope
a reply to: stolencar18

Why NOT stop Muslims from entering the US?

Frankly because it's embarrassing. Most people just want to live in a better, less tyrannical place, regardless of their religions.

What needs to end is multiculturalism, which is the real debate. If you come to live in America, you become American and enjoy the fruits of American values as an American. No self-segregation, but assimilation. The real tragedy is the people who want that, but cannot yet reach it.

Embarrassing?

Having them walk openly across our borders and kill our family members is embarrassing. That could be stopped if the country wasn't so embarrassingly PC.

Having them put videos online of people being tortured, maimed, and killed and celebrating it while policing whether or not someone reposts a Taylor Swift song without paying a royalty is embarrassing.

Having them roam our streets using our laws against us so they get opportunities to use our rights (guns, religion, free speech) against us is embarrassing.

Being unable to control our border despite having more money than anyone else is embarrassing.

Having news media dictate what we can and can't think and what is and isn't politically correct, and protecting movements like BLM or Occupy while they plot ways to shoot up our Christmas parties without anyone knowing a thing is embarrassing.

Banning muslims isn't embarrassing. It's necessary.

originally posted by: LesMisanthrope
a reply to: marg6043

The Muslims, as with all immigrants I know, fully embrace they culture of their homeland....

And add to it. We had a large influx of Lebanese in the 70's and they assimilated well BUT, damn, they brought their food too. Man that's good stuff.

a reply to: enlightenedservant

With all due respect brother or sister, imho, your not being remotely accurate in your dissertation on Islam.

Salafis are not held in any particular esteem but amongst themselves and the ignorant Muslims.


Saudi money has spread Wahhabi/Salafi extreme sectarian "Islam."

Sure of course we know all Salafis aren't jihadis and some are very pious, but that's outward show, that's all.

Exoteric, prayer to be seem of men, nothing at all held in any esteem in the vast majority of Islam.

Only in their own eyes

a reply to: LesMisanthrope

If you look at the major Muslim communities in the US they congregate were the majority live, they actually have created their own safe havens no outsiders are allowed this is no an over statement, but is not limited to Muslims alone is other groups of people that had done the same they have create their own communities where they can kept all sides of the culture intact even if it causes conflicts with the established laws in the nation.

While that is ok and it should no bother anybody, the problem I have with this goes back to the rhetoric that people comes to America from other parts of the world because they want to embrace our freedoms, but truly no always is the truth.

a reply to: stolencar18

I am starting to think you lost the plot.....

You want to ban an entire religion from coming to the U.S and if someone disagrees with your stance you label it PC......oh my oh my....

a reply to: stolencar18

This us and them nonsense is too fallacious for me to compute. Hasty generalizations and these appeals to the emotions are irrational.

Pressumption of innocence is a precious notion. No one commits a crime until they do.

The point is there are other ways.

a reply to: intrepid

Go to Morocco. Moroccan art and architecture might be the most beautiful thing I've ever seen.

originally posted by: schuyler
Yes, there is a problem with it. The 1st amendment to the US Constitution does not only give you free speech rights, it also grants you freedom of religion. So if you decide who can get in based on religion, you just violated a key provision of the Bill of Rights. There is no equivocation here, either, because religion is specifically spelled out.

It's really that simple.

Thanks, lefties, for reminding us of how important the 1st Amendment is. You all seemed to forget all about it when you were crucifying Kim Davis.

originally posted by: marg6043
a reply to: LesMisanthrope

If you look at the major Muslim communities in the US they congregate were the majority live, they actually have created their own safe havens no outsiders are allowed this is no an over statement, but is not limited to Muslims alone is other groups of people that had done the same they have create their own communities where they can kept all sides of the culture intact even if it causes conflicts with the established laws in the nation.

While that is ok and it should no bother anybody, the problem I have with this goes back to the rhetoric that people comes to America from other parts of the world because they want to embrace our freedoms, but truly no always is the truth.

I would agree with you. My point is that to protect those who want to embrace the ideals, there should be an assimilation. This involves both cultures. Those who don't want to embrace the ideals, the laws, the culture, can leave.

originally posted by: LesMisanthrope
a reply to: intrepid

Go to Morocco. Moroccan art and architecture might be the most beautiful thing I've ever seen.

I would love to. I have kids and now a grandchild. It's a money thing but I have been there via the Net. Hey.... the best I've got.

Imagine that Whirling dervish followers of the Great Jalaludin Rumi won’t be allowed to emigrate to America. Rumi probably the greatest love poet of all time! When he died Christians, Jews, Muslims, all grieved at his funeral.

Peace loving industrious Admadiyya Muslims, often persecuted and murdered by Wahhabi Taliban in Pakistan, wont be able to immigrate.


How do you do that?


If for example we wanted to keep the Catholic priests in Ireland who sodomized all these children out of America would we then deny English Protestants from emigrating?

Does any of that make any sense?

a reply to: hopenotfeariswhatweneed

There is a difference between "banning a religion from coming to a country" and "banning a religion from coming to the country until we can let them in and still ensure our safety as much as possible"

a reply to: intrepid

My travelling days are over as well.

From first glance their art seems almost impossible to make, but their methods are genius enough to make it easy and quick. Its a testament to the vast intellectual history of The Arab world, to which I hope it one day returns.