Why NOT stop Muslims from entering the US?

a reply to: LesMisanthrope

The us and them notion is fallacious?

Tell that to them.

Are you denying the existence of a group of Muslims that are hell bent on destroying us (whether or not that is realistic)?

The ignorance here hurts to behold.

Yup, and that's where it starts. Halt the Muslim boogeyman from entering. Then erect a massive wall on the Southern border to keep the other undesirables out.

Sounds like a lockdown to me.

No thanks

...and still we're waiting for the OP to explain HOW this could be applied?

I would hazard that it's just not possible without falling into fascism.

originally posted by: Willtell
a reply to: enlightenedservant

With all due respect brother or sister, imho, your not being remotely accurate in your dissertation on Islam.

Salafis are not held in any particular esteem but amongst themselves and the ignorant Muslims.

Saudi money has spread Wahhabi/Salafi extreme sectarian "Islam."

Sure of course we know all Salafis aren't jihadis and some are very pious, but that's outward show, that's all.

Exoteric, prayer to be seem of men, nothing at all held in any esteem in the vast majority of Islam.

Only in their own eyes

Maybe that's your interpretation, but that's not what I've seen or experienced with my own eyes. And how am I supposedly wrong?

Salafis came before Sunnis. This is a fact.
Wahhabis consider themselves "Salafis" and hate the term "Wahhabi". This is also a fact.

Not all Saafis or Wahhabi/Salafis are violent or preach violent extremism. I've listened to & debated quite a few Wahhabi/"Salafi" preachers because they're the one "sect" I've never been able to get along with. No matter how much I've tried to understand them, I always get angry with them. But my massive disagreements with them are usually over scripture, some of their treatments towards black people & women, and traditions that I find stupid, false, or irrelevant.

The more "moderate" Wahhabis consider the violent & radical ones "Kharijites" and another word that I can't remember. This is a fact. You can ask our friend Kapusta more about that because it's more of his area of expertise than mine. I used to lump them all together but he corrected me on it. And I used to lump all Salafis together as Wahhabis but different scholars & my Dad corrected me on that.

There are various different "Sunni" sub-sects & schools of thought around the world, so I can't speak for them as a whole. But I know from experience that many different Sunni Imams & leaders treat Salafis with a higher respect than they do other Sunnis, particularly non-practicing Sunnis & "only on Friday" Muslims. This is one reason Salafi preachers get invited to speak at different non-salafi mosques all over the world, (though I don't know the politics behind the deals). Of course, I've also seen many day-to-day Sunnis who thought all Salafis were are the same; as in, they didn't know the differences in some Salafis and the ones other Salafis refer to as modern day "Kharijites".

Ask any actual Wahhabis right now if they consider themselves Wahhabi or Salafi. I'm correct when I say they hate the term Wahhabi & refer to themselves as Salafis instead. Then ask them if they think the violent ones represent Wahhab's teachings & they'll say no. They'll say the violent ones have hijacked his teachings.

So where was I wrong, except maybe that normal Sunnis don't give a crap about Salafis because they're too conservative? Though I study the different sects from a top-down approach, so I can see where I'd miss that part.

a reply to: ketsuko

It would be like the Protestant Christian world more or less saying, "We don't trust Catholicism and its doctrines and priests, but sure, send us that priest and we'll let him take over our pulpit and start preaching his version of Christianity and give Mass and confession." And then we turn around and wonder when people think we're no different than Catholics and our children begin to attend confession and revere the Pope.

Whoa...

Charity begins at home I guess

originally posted by: aorAki
...and still we're waiting for the OP to explain HOW this could be applied?

I would hazard that it's just not possible without falling into fascism.

The same way Carter did it to the Iranians

a reply to: Vector99


How do you recognise a Muslim, though?
It's not on their passport...

a reply to: aorAki

I wouldn't know, but I'm personally for stopping ALL immigration until the immigration system is fixed.

originally posted by: enlightenedservant

originally posted by: Willtell
a reply to: enlightenedservant

With all due respect brother or sister, imho, your not being remotely accurate in your dissertation on Islam.

Salafis are not held in any particular esteem but amongst themselves and the ignorant Muslims.

Saudi money has spread Wahhabi/Salafi extreme sectarian "Islam."

Sure of course we know all Salafis aren't jihadis and some are very pious, but that's outward show, that's all.

Exoteric, prayer to be seem of men, nothing at all held in any esteem in the vast majority of Islam.

Only in their own eyes

Maybe that's your interpretation, but that's not what I've seen or experienced with my own eyes. And how am I supposedly wrong?

Salafis came before Sunnis. This is a fact.
Wahhabis consider themselves "Salafis" and hate the term "Wahhabi". This is also a fact.

Not all Saafis or Wahhabi/Salafis are violent or preach violent extremism. I've listened to & debated quite a few Wahhabi/"Salafi" preachers because they're the one "sect" I've never been able to get along with. No matter how much I've tried to understand them, I always get angry with them. But my massive disagreements with them are usually over scripture, some of their treatments towards black people & women, and traditions that I find stupid, false, or irrelevant.

The more "moderate" Wahhabis consider the violent & radical ones "Kharijites" and another word that I can't remember. This is a fact. You can ask our friend Kapusta more about that because it's more of his area of expertise than mine. I used to lump them all together but he corrected me on it. And I used to lump all Salafis together as Wahhabis but different scholars & my Dad corrected me on that.

There are various different "Sunni" sub-sects & schools of thought around the world, so I can't speak for them as a whole. But I know from experience that many different Sunni Imams & leaders treat Salafis with a higher respect than they do other Sunnis, particularly non-practicing Sunnis & "only on Friday" Muslims. This is one reason Salafi preachers get invited to speak at different non-salafi mosques all over the world, (though I don't know the politics behind the deals). Of course, I've also seen many day-to-day Sunnis who thought all Salafis were are the same; as in, they didn't know the differences in some Salafis and the ones other Salafis refer to as modern day "Kharijites".

Ask any actual Wahhabis right now if they consider themselves Wahhabi or Salafi. I'm correct when I say they hate the term Wahhabi & refer to themselves as Salafis instead. Then ask them if they think the violent ones represent Wahhab's teachings & they'll say no. They'll say the violent ones have hijacked his teachings.

So where was I wrong, except maybe that normal Sunnis don't give a crap about Salafis because they're too conservative? Though I study the different sects from a top-down approach, so I can see where I'd miss that part.

Here’s where you’re wrong, imo

Salafi before Sunni?

No, that’s their theology of a puritanical theory Wahhab imagined in order to create an idea of superiority: we follow the true way of the true followers. That’s their theology and mythology.

No one accepts their religious fantasies that have turned into a religious nightmare for Muslims and the world.


You don’t get along with them because their mind programmed zombies: narrow minded bigots who are one-dimensional.

They have no spiritual eye only a primitive understanding of dogmatic, exoteric theology they invented for themselves.

Many Muslims have been blinded by Saudi Wahhabism mainly because they have all that oil money they can bribe and propagandize their pre-modern version of religion which has again turned out a disaster for Islam and the world

Btw of course they don’t want to be known as Wahhabis: that’s because they have their teachings from this notorious individual NOT the followers of the prophet.

As well, they pretend this notion of being the true Sunna of the Prophet

Every school of though has that notion they just have one concocted from the 18th century.

Believe me all these Muslims who want to have this Salafi preacher is because they want money from Saudi!

I KNOW THAT FROM EXPERIENCE

When they leave they mock these pre-modern crazy religious bigots who believe in eternal hell for everyone but themselves.

You’re not necessarily wrong on facts you're wrong on giving thee guys any respect they don’t deserve

They have destroyed Islam with heir primitive form of sectarian bigotry and hatred and the proof of that is all that we are going through with all this terrorism and jihadi madness

You think its a coincidence ALL of them are Wahhabis?

Ask yourself this: why are ALL the jihadi murderers Wahhabi/Salafi?

That's no coincidence!

Who is sitting in prisons or droned to death?
Wahhabi/Salafis

Boko Haram: Wahhabi/Salafis

Taliban: Wahhabi/Salafi

Al Shabab: Wahhabi/Salafi

Al Qaeda: Wahhabi/Salafi

ISIS: Wahhabi/Salafi

Those two in California last week: Wahhabi/Salafi



Now to this Kharijite hting

Just a term they apply to those they want to pretend aren’t of them

I agree all Wahhabis aren’t violent jihadis but that ALL the violent jihadis are Wahhabis.

They have brain washed people who have memorized laws and their own perspective of Islam, that’s all.

They have programmed people to hate other Islamic schools of thought as well other religions

THAT ISNT FROM ISLAM, imo

That's s ALL from that 18th Century Cult leader Abdul Wahhab's super sectarian bigotry

That has led to our present crisis

There are no great scholars amongst these super sectarian bigots who have no respect for other schools of thought and other religions and think they have thee right to judge Muslims

They know nothing about Tariqah and the Tassawwuf they reject

So essentially you are in error,imo because you seem to make these pernicious anti-Islamic bigots and distorters of true Islam innocuous as if the Muslim community respects them...they don't!

People that don't like Trump have selective hearing like a few of my exgirl friends.

People that don't like trump only hear we need to BAN MUSLIMS.

What i heard was we need to ban Muslims TILL THE GOVERNMENT GET THE VETTING SYSTEM FIXED.

The media that supports democrats only hears BAN MUSLIMS.

The media that supports the Republicans puts out we need to get the VETTING SYSTEM FIXED.

I agree that we need to get the vetting system fixed and that we need to keep anyone that can not be vetted out till it is.

There are a few terrorist out there that were Christians that have converted to Islam.

The friend Enrique Marquez of the San Bernardino shooter was one of these and in some ways more dangerous then other muslims as they can pass for Christians.

All the media hype around nasty old Mr. Trump and the muslim thing is taking hysteria to a whole new level.

I mean, they let the Saudi "Royals" in, don't they? Hell, they even bend over backwards to greet them like long lost brothers! Those same barbaric buttholes that have ramped up head choppings enough to make ISIS blush! Where is the media hysteria and calls to ban them from entering the country?

originally posted by: PresidentCamacho

originally posted by: sosobad

When was the last time the KKK or Christians for that matter beheaded someone on video?

When was the last time the KKK or Christians for that matter burned people alive on video?

When was the last time the KKK or Christians for that matter slaughtered entire regions because the natives would not bow to their will?

Your analogy fails so so bad.

White supremacist who kills 3 outside Jewish center sentenced to death

Terror plot fails when white supremacist blows off own leg, WARNING GRAPHIC

Selected white supremacist crimes from drugs to rape to murder for a 3 year period

There is tons more but you couldn't give a monkeys about any of that. You suggest we stop all Christians from entering the US? So don't accuse me of failing anything when you don't even know what is happening in your own country. Now do not have a Donald Trump interview to be getting your jollys off to? You know those brown people won't demonize themselves.

I would like to add that a country that was founded by immigrants escaping religious persecution telling immigrants that they can't enter because of their religion is so ironic it is boarder line retarded.

a reply to: Willtell

Although to be fair, the vast majority of people killed due to violence and intolerance across the Middle East and North Africa have been (ahem) those who support Sunni or Shia denominations. 150 people killed in a car bomb on a Shia or Sunni market place, was planted by Shia or Sunni Muslim, attempting to kill their fellow Muslims.

a reply to: stolencar18

Why not create a big scene and then usher in the super i.d. card?

Trump card?

Oh noooooooo I did.

When does the burning start? I got told we are burning folk today?.

Stopping all Muslims entering America would not stop or even reduce the terrorist threat.

There are still people who are in the USA right now who are Muslim who have been radicalised on-line and if they had a chance would be blowing themselves up outside the Capitol Building. A blanket ban on Muslims entering the country would do nothing to prevent these guys being a threat, if anything it would only further radicalise them.

Its also not going to deter any would be international terrorist travelling into the country for several reasons. Firstly if a terrorist is really determined they will find a way into the country, they will just simply deny they are Muslim to get in. They may also get into the America by travelling through Canada like Ahmed Rassam done. In fact Canada is probably a
bigger terror threat than the south of the boarder. This was recently reported on in the Canadian press:

When it comes to the threat of terrorism, the Canadian border is a bigger problem than the Mexican one, a U.S. security official says.

Customs and Border Protection Commissioner Alan Bersin said he is concerned that potential terrorists are exploiting Canadian loopholes to gain entry to the United States.

"We have had more cases where people who are suspected of alliances with terrorist organizations, or have had a terrorist suspicion in their background - we see more people crossing over from Canada than we have from Mexico," he said during in his testimony to the U.S. Senate this week.

Link

The idea that the threat of terrorism is not coming for the North is totally false, trump would need two walls.

There is a additional problem, do you ban Muslims from moving to America or do you ban them even visiting because that opens up a can of worms. If you let them visit then the whole thing is even more pointless because mr.terrorist could have 6 weeks to attack. If you ban them visiting that is even worse, it would cut of families from seeing each other causing outrage in Muslim communities (even more than they already are) it would probably also cause a measurable negative impact on the tourism industry.

Lets not forget the political impact this would have you are talking about banning over 1 billion people from all over the world travelling to America that would have to include states that are traditionally American allies. He would have to ban people from the UK entering for example. This would end up having political ramifications.

Lastly how on earth would you do this in reality, how would you actually know who is a Muslim and who is not, how do you go about banning international Muslim businessmen, what about Muslim diplomats do they get banned also. You see when you follow this line of thought you realise that Trump would have to pick and chose what Muslims he let in and who he would ban.

And why Muslims? you would be banning people based on xenophobic stereotypes so next you would be banning all the Cuban drug dealers and all the black gang-bangers and the white rapists and so on.

So to sum up its a bad idea because; terrorists can still get in, it would have a economic effect on the state, it would also cause political arm and in practice it would not be possible to ban them all.

Overall a very bad idea, actually its laughable we are even discussing this.

originally posted by: nwtrucker
a reply to: stolencar18

Simply put, Trump's version is a moratorium until vetting is assured.

This is only logical. Yes, the vast majority are good people who only want to better themselves...SO WHAT? If that's the criteria for immigration/refugee status, then we might as well do as Hillary says and have 'open borders'.

ANY immigrant /refugee is coming for that reason, there' 7 billion or so out there.....

Erm not not 7 billion.

Not everyone wants to live in the USA.

And you don't have to choose between just trump and hillary....

originally posted by: intrepid

originally posted by: PresidentCamacho

originally posted by: sosobad

When was the last time the KKK or Christians for that matter beheaded someone on video?

When was the last time the KKK or Christians for that matter burned people alive on video?

When was the last time the KKK or Christians for that matter slaughtered entire regions because the natives would not bow to their will?

Your analogy fails so so bad.

Disingenuous. The KKK predates video. If you want though you can Google image search "KKK Hangings" and that crap is pretty nasty. I won't link it.

ETA: When? Looks within my lifetime.

Didnt a KKK member also shoot up a church in charlston?

originally posted by: LesMisanthrope

originally posted by: hopenotfeariswhatweneed
a reply to: stolencar18

I see you have still NOT answered a question you have been asked several times so I will ask again.......How do you propose identifying people whom are Muslim ?

Do what the Saudis do and have done for quite some time. Ask the religion on the application.

Because the terrorists and rapists you want stop wont just you know lie?



All that will do is turn tne actual honest law abiding muslims away while letting the dangrous ones who lie......