Billboard asking people to skip church on Christmas stirs controversy

originally posted by: Phage
a reply to: OccamsRazor04

Except you can have the idea of redemption without it being tied to God. My reply did not even mention God.

What do you consider "redemption" to mean?

redemption
noun
1.
an act of redeeming or atoning for a fault or mistake, or the state of being redeemed.

a reply to: OccamsRazor04

Which outlook would you consider more positive?

Strawman argument.
The topic is about Christianity. It is not about deed, but about acceptance of Jesus as Lord and Savior. Isn't that the point of last rites and stuff?


Here's another:

Theology. deliverance from sin; salvation.

Sin has a wide and varied context. Some consider a blow job sinful.

a reply to: OccamsRazor04

Ok so what do we have to redeem ourselves from?

Adam's sin? We weren't there. So it's not our fault.

Also which is more positive?

Accepting God of your own free will or...

Accepting God under threat of hellfire.

originally posted by: Phage
a reply to: OccamsRazor04

Which outlook would you consider more positive?

Strawman argument.
The topic is about Christianity. It is not about deed, but about acceptance of Jesus as Lord and Savior. Isn't that the point of last rites and stuff?

Actually the topic is an atheist billboard. The post I made that started all this was about whether the idea a person can be redeemed is a positive or negative one. I posted nothing about Christianity or God, or Salvation originally. So it's not a Strawman. It's the argument I presented. That belief in redemption, and belief you are worth saving is a positive belief.

originally posted by: Phage
a reply to: OccamsRazor04

Which outlook would you consider more positive?

Strawman argument.
The topic is about Christianity. It is not about deed, but about acceptance of Jesus as Lord and Savior. Isn't that the point of last rites and stuff?


Here's another:

Theology. deliverance from sin; salvation.

Sin has a wide and varied context. Some consider a blow job sinful.

I did not talk about sin or salvation. I merely stated the idea that you are never too far gone to be saved (without bringing God into it) was a positive idea, there is nothing negative about that.

originally posted by: Deaf Alien
a reply to: OccamsRazor04

Ok so what do we have to redeem ourselves from?

What if you drove home and did not see someone cross the street and killed them. That's something you could redeem yourself from.

Drug dealer who got their best friend addicted and they died.

World is full of possibilities. They do not all have to be extreme.

a reply to: OccamsRazor04

to punish someone for a crime or not is one matter, to say they are relieved of their responsibilities is immoral. you can do someone's time but you can't say that person never committed it. therefore redemption is an illusion, and a disgusting one at that if it's done thru human sacrifice, in my opinion.

a reply to: OccamsRazor04
Yes. A billboard posted by atheists which says you do not have to declare fealty to Jesus Christ in order to be a good person. I guess we agree then.

That belief in redemption, and belief you are worth saving is a positive belief.

Can you be more explicit in your definition of being "saved?"

a reply to: OccamsRazor04

What if you drove home and did not see someone cross the street and killed them. That's something you could redeem yourself from.

Drug dealer who got their best friend addicted and they died.

That is human error and failing. Yes one can feel guilty about their mistakes and decide to make something of it. Yes positive things can come out of human mistakes and failings.

Sin is a different subject all together. To say that you are responsible for your spiritual sins is illogical. According to Christianity, no matter what one do in life, they will always be sinners.

originally posted by: Phage
a reply to: OccamsRazor04
Yes. A billboard posted by atheists which says you do not have to declare fealty to Jesus Christ in order to be a good person. I guess we agree then.

That belief in redemption, and belief you are worth saving is a positive belief.

Can you be more explicit in your definition of being "saved?"

Completely agree, Jesus has nothing to do with being a good person. That's on us, sadly we will all fail.

In the context of the discussion saved would mean something along the lines of no longer lost in guilt. It's not the word I used prior, I already showed you my post.

Want to know the difference between you and the other poster? You are having a reasonable rational discussion without resorting to attacks and non stop switching topics.

originally posted by: Deaf Alien
a reply to: OccamsRazor04

What if you drove home and did not see someone cross the street and killed them. That's something you could redeem yourself from.

Drug dealer who got their best friend addicted and they died.

That is human error and failing. Yes one can feel guilty about their mistakes and decide to make something of it. Yes positive things can come out of human mistakes and failings.

Sin is a different subject all together. To say that you are responsible for your spiritual sins is illogical. According to Christianity, no matter what one do in life, they will always be sinners.

Your post just agreed with me. The idea of redemption is in and of itself a positive ideology. Whether you agree with it being tied to God is something different, and not an argument I care to get into, nor did I attempt to get into earlier.

a reply to: OccamsRazor04

In the context of the discussion saved would mean something along the lines of no longer lost in guilt.

I think that there are very many people who do very bad things and do not feel a twinge of guilt. They will die smug and content. Just as a good Christian (or Muslim, for that matter) will.

In the context of the thread, a feeling of guilt is irrelevant.

originally posted by: Phage
a reply to: OccamsRazor04

In the context of the discussion saved would mean something along the lines of no longer lost in guilt.

I think that there are very many people who do very bad things and do not feel a twinge of guilt. They will die smug and content. Just as a good Christian will.

And there are those who really do nothing wrong yet suffer immense guilt.

For the smug, they may be happy either way, but is the world a better place if they believed in redemption?

I can't think of any examples where the idea of redemption is a negative.

a reply to: OccamsRazor04

And there are those who really do nothing wrong yet suffer immense guilt.

Indeed. Guilt forced upon them by society. Homosexuals for example.

I can't think of any examples where the idea of redemption is a negative.

Right. And that's the point. Christians believe that there is only one way to "redemption", the acceptance of Jesus as Lord and Savior. The billboard says, "no, you don't have to be a Christian to be a good person."

a reply to: OccamsRazor04

can someone murder then say its okay because christ forgives them?

that person is in fact a murderer, whether or not that person is punished is a different story. its not that redemption is bad it just makes no sense.

originally posted by: Phage
a reply to: OccamsRazor04

And there are those who really do nothing wrong yet suffer immense guilt.

Indeed. Guilt forced upon them by society. Homosexuals for example.

I can't think of any examples where the idea of redemption is a negative.

Right. And that's the point. Christians believe that there is only one way to "redemption", the acceptance of Jesus as Lord and Savior. The billboard says, "no, you don't have to be a Christian to be a good person."

Or forced on themselves, survivor's guilt.

Your post seems to concede redemption, as an idea, is not a negative thing, which is all I ever asserted.

originally posted by: vjr1113
a reply to: OccamsRazor04

can someone murder then say its okay because christ forgives them?

that person is in fact a murderer, whether or not that person is punished is a different story. its not that redemption is bad it just makes no sense.

That's not how it works. It never becomes okay.

What if that murderer is not caught and spends his whole life bringing other murderers to justice seeking his own brand of redemption.

The idea makes perfect sense. You seem to suggest a person can't ever be redeemed, which is a different argument than whether the ideology is a positive one.

Good discussion.

But anyway how this got started is one poster's view that whatever you do can never be good enough and to accept God's forgiveness (for something you never did) and in essence avoiding punishment is negative.

originally posted by: Deaf Alien
a reply to: OccamsRazor04

We have been answering questions. And yes he has accused me of preaching to him multiple times.

Actually you said Christians who celebrated Christmas were sinners

You said that based on your fundy friends and parroted their views
Kind of like a good little atheist fundy religious person

Page 5, you were preaching that Christians couldn't celebrate Christmas

I still don't get it or had an answer

a reply to: OccamsRazor04

Your post seems to concede redemption, as an idea, is not a negative thing, which is all I ever asserted.

No. My post explicitly states that one not need feel guilt simply because one does not attend church. It is the same thing that the billboard says.

"Redemption", if you wish to take it out of its religious context, is an entirely different matter. A felon, no matter how good the deeds he performs, is still a felon. He cannot own a gun. In some states he cannot vote. A sex offender is a sex offender for life, he cannot be "redeemed", except of course, by God.