Debating Theism

Theism and atheism are both faiths. The answer is beyond us. Can you prove god? No. Can you disprove god? No. Therefore both depend on faith, which isn't fact. Arguing about an unprovable is akin to intellectual masturbation.

I'll prove God... simply quoting his fundamentals...

Seek Me And Ye Shall Not Find Me....
Let Go Of Life... And Ye Shall Find Me...

One For Theist And One For Atheist...

But... I Lie!

a reply to: LittleByLittle

Buddhist are not atheists. They believe in Dharma and the oneness just like Hinduism, Buddhism, Sikhism and Jainism.

Sorry to burst your bubble, but Buddhism is atheistic or non-theistic if you'd prefer.

Believing in Dharma or "Oneness" does not make Buddhsim theistic - it makes it more or less a proponent of monism.

Of course, we can question then "what is meant by 'god?'" Is "god" a word with actual meaning or is it simply used as a place-holder for "I don't know?"

a reply to: LittleByLittle

OP. Give up. You have not even started asking the right questions. Your understanding of the concept of god is to small minded.

I didn't ask any questions. I issued a challenge. Considering I have not actually given you my concept of "god" - which, as an agnostic, I really have none of, other than the several versions that have been put forth throughout history, I don't see how you are able to assess my concept of god. I can say this - if there is a god, I wouldn't have any concept of it, because for me, if a god could be defined or even conceptualized, it is no longer "god."

Subjective reasoning is not objective reasoning gained from experience and testing reality.

Personal experience is subjective. Furthermore, there is something known as logic and reasoning (both deductive and inductive). I think it would be good for me to tell you one more thing regarding the OP: the challenge is to show that a person's idea of god is irrational - not to show that it is impossible. I don't have enough knowledge to believe in impossibilities.

Is it possible that there's a fear-mongering, loving god who sends non-believers straight to hell, even if they live their lives as "godly" people? Of course. Is that rational? Of course not.

a reply to: scorpio84

IMO Buddhism is a philosophy, not a religion. Thus superior to man made dogma. It is too but it's not self serving.

originally posted by: Klassified
a reply to: scorpio84
Just putting in my 2 pence before reading the thread. Most beliefs are irrational to start with. There's a part of me that believes there is no such thing as death. Just a continuance without this shell we call a body. However, I can't prove that, so technically it's an irrational belief. Even the most hardened scientists among us have beliefs. It's human nature.

Regarding your last two sentences - I agree fully. As for the question about death - I suppose it comes down to what you mean by "death." If you mean that we have a consciousness or "awareness" that continues after death - I'm not sure. Though, that would seem to explain the "presence" some people feel - then again, that may just come down to some cold hard science. If, by "death" you mean whether or not what makes us ceases, to exist, I would say no. On the atomic level, what made us just gets recycled-something that occurs every time you breathe. Going even further than that, even if we were to be sucked into a black hole, the information that "encodes" us (I can't think of a better term, sorry if it is inadequate) would still be there.

a reply to: TheAwoken666

I believe that some sort of energy created everything around us.

Energy as a creative force is fairly well-accepted, I think.

I believe that ''GOD'' is a central unit that holds everything in one place and the energy from that unit creates other little units to express itself.

First of all, nothing is being "held in one place." We are actually moving all the time. As for the substance that holds everything together, I think the answer would be gluons.

I believe energy is what fuels our organic bodies and this energy is coming from one source.

There are several sources of energy. You get energy when you eat food. You get energy when you drink something. The sun provides us with energy. The list goes on.

I do not believe in entities that are superior to one, I do not believe a man is god and I do not believe in the word of supposed messengers of god.

In other words, you do not believe in a god that has an active role other than simply existing, so to speak?

I am not bound by religion, however I have a belief system that is related to spiritual science not religion, for example subjects like reincarnation, life after death and ghosts.

I have always wondered how one can believe in such things, yet not believe in god. Considering the experience is pretty much the same and the neurological processes happening are as well, maybe it's just what you want to label it. Some people will feel a presence and call it a ghost - others will call it "god."

These are my beliefs , but I do know that it can be false. These beliefs merely exist because of my fear of nothing after death.

So, you are agnostic (more or less). Do you mean that you do not fear anything or that you are afraid of nothingness?

a reply to: ServantOfTheLamb

God exist and the universe is designed, if the universe is designed then anything that exist in the universe functions in a particular way.

So, basically, your proof that god exists is to just take as a given that god exists? That would be known as circular reasoning. What's more, the concept of a universe that is "designed" is flawed, as this essay by noted astrophysicist Steven Weinberg eloquently and clearly explains.

Now that your "proof" has been shown to be illogical, let's get on to the meat of the matter - what you understand as "god." You are Christian, so that means you believe in Jesus. Answer me a couple questions:

1). How is it possible to be both fully human and fully divine?

2). Could God make a stone so heavy, He couldn't lift it?

a reply to: intrepid

I would argue that Atheists tend not to say (with absolute surety) that 'there is no god', but instead say 'there is no evidence for god, therefore no reason to humor the notion that their could be'. It's still saying there is no god, but acknowledging that 'absolutes' do not exist.

a reply to: ChesterJohn

Interesting, I've seen "debate" and "strife," depending on the version you use. I know that "debate" comes from the KJV, which is interesting considering the KJV itself is up for debate.

The very word ἔριδος leads us to question what was really meant. It is important to ask yourself how it was used by the author of Romans. Words like "strife," "debate," and "discord" are not the same thing.


Besides, why shouldn't Christians participate?

originally posted by: intrepid
Theism and atheism are both faiths. The answer is beyond us. Can you prove god? No. Can you disprove god? No. Therefore both depend on faith, which isn't fact. Arguing about an unprovable is akin to intellectual masturbation.

I would have to disagree with that, Intrepid. If we go by the strict definition of atheist, meaning a lack of belief in deities. There is no faith involved. Unless one counts a lack of faith as faith. To use something that has been used to death. I don't have any belief in faeries either. Am I an afaerist because I see no evidence that faeries exist?
I think the word that better fits what you're talking about is anti-theist. One might consider an anti-theist as having faith that god doesn't exist, depending on that persons perspective of anti-theism. In my case, I reject the concept of deity/god. So I would be labeled an anti-theist.

Yeah I know. It's a convoluted mess.

a reply to: Klassified

A lack of belief is in itself a religion under the definition of religion.

a reply to: scorpio84
I was curious what angle you were going to use to "prove that belief in God is irrational." But disappointingly, you chose the "attack" method. Surely you don't expect that approach from an anonymous poster on the internet will get me to reject the things I've gone through for literally half of my life, do you?

Please don't take any of my reply as a personal attack, even if it does "attack" your faith.

LOL How is that possible or rational? Change one word & you'll see what I mean. "Please don't take any of my reply as a personal attack, even if it does 'attack' your kids/family/beliefs/friends." You just put me on the defensive before you even got to your points. Also, your list of "points" about Islam are not only wrong, but they have nothing to do with what I said or why I became a Muslim. So there's no point in me replying to any of them.

Interesting. Have you considered that you may have been having seizures? Remember, seizures don't have to result in you laying on the ground, convulsing with foam at the mouth.

I'd been to plenty of doctors and even did so right before I "submit" (as I noted in my post). They not only repeatedly showed that I was fine, but they never once put me on any medications.

Are you sure you have checked your mental health? blah blah blah...

No point repeating myself. Nope, I'm not a prophet (though I'd love being one if it came with the power to perform miracles). And yes, it's both common & perfectly normal to have voices & suggestions in our minds. Though my American culture normally calls them our "conscience", "intuition", "a mother's intuition", "Intrusive thoughts", "epiphanies", "gut feelings", "bad vibes", "instincts", etc. So why is it irrational to dig deeper until I can identify common traits between them; note what "triggers" them; note the effects of following or rejecting them; note when they coincide with other things like visions/hallucinations/projections, etc.?

What sort of tests?

Why would it matter? You've already shown that you think this is/was all in my head. Sorry, I'll try not to be on the defensive for the other questions...

You may have noticed I reply in the order I read something. So If I respond to something you've already answered, don't feel offended or anything - it's just my particular style or responding to long posts. I find it odd you had a hallucination in front of the doctors and they couldn't find anything wrong. First: what did the hallucination look like? Second, did the doctors run tests using EEG, MRI, etc.?

Well, if that's your replying style, I'll be more patient. I've had different "hallucinations" all of my life. Some were creatures during sleep paralysis episodes, some were guardians keeping others at a distance, some were blah blah blah. That specific situation was tame compared to the other instances. It was just one of the beings that had been chastising me for doubting God, "standing" in between the doctors as they tried to convince me that there was nothing there. Also, it was more than a decade ago so I don't remember what all tests they did that specific time.

To give a little more info on me medically, I had bacterial meningitis as a child. It was so bad that one night they finally pulled the plugs on me & I was supposed to die. My Mom prayed over me, gave me snack food as she held me & the next morning my body was clear of it. They did numerous tests back then including 2 spinal taps, but couldn't find anything in my system anymore. I had to have various tests from then on until I was in high school (to make sure it didn't come back), but my body & mind always came up "in perfect health".

I believe my path started then, because after my body became clear of meningitis, I had all kinds of physical & mental tests & they determined I was "gifted" lol. I was then placed in "gifted" classes throughout elementary school, chosen for the Duke TIP program in 7th grade (this), (made a ridiculous score on my ACT when I was in 7th grade

), and was in honors & AP classes throughout high school. I'm only mentioning that because I had quite a few mental evaluations, physicals, medical tests, and more done on me at that time in my life.

I get the impression (correct me if I'm wrong) that you are "Muslim" in name primarily. It is the religion of your parents, so it's just easier to also adopt that faith.

Your story is interesting, but there's one slight problem: I still don't know your concept of God. You told me why you believe, but not what you believe. I'd think it was Allah, but then:

Nope. Islam simply means "Submission to God" and Muslim simply means "one who submits to God". I'm not a Sunni, Shiite, Alawite, or any other denomination, but neither were God's Prophets or any Muslims before the final messenger (Muhammad) died. I'm literally a "Muslim" in the truest form of the word. Also, I studied many religions back then and even more now. My decision literally had nothing to do with my parents. Oh & I kinda answered that in my first paragraph; God is the creator of what we call "existence".

Let's forget about the possibility of epilepsy, schizophrenia, etc. for a moment. When I read your post, I get the distinct impression that your faith came about through fear. Do you truly believe that a loving God (I assume you believe in this if you are Muslim) would use fear and torment someone with visual/aural hallucinations? A means to and end? Perhaps, but there would be other, kinder, means to the same end available to Allah, don't you think?

LOL Come on now. You didn't miss the 3rd sentence in my post did you? "I worship, respect & fear the Creator of what we call 'existence'." I could never worship something if I only feared it. I could also never submit to something that I could defeat (except maybe to my future wife). I submit because of the years of tests, "coincidences", and lessons I received. The 2 week chastisement simply forced my hand.

Heck if I know - we'll find out. In discussions of a philosophical nature, it isn't the destination that matters - it's the path.

I asked that because you were going to prove without science how believing in God is "irrational". Everything that led to my submission was done rationally, so I was trying to see how you would disprove them. "Mental illness" seemed to be your main answer, but I think that's a "scientific" cop out. The truth is that our sciences still don't understand many things about the human mind. So "mental illness" is the "God of the gaps" argument usually presented to "answer" the things they can't explain.

a reply to: Peeple

My modern version of god is the Lord of time, the force which makes synchronicity happen.

With infinite possibilities, anything is possible. There are plenty of criticisms of Jung's theory of synchronicity. This can be broken down into mathematics.

Since it was always said, he is like no other being and at all places at all times, it is naturally an unlocateable force.

If something is at all places at one time, I would imagine it is quite easy to locate it.

I am standing at point X.
"God" is everywhere.
Either:
"God" is at point X, too.
or
I am standing nowhere.

but then, you could think of it this way:
I am point X
God is everywhere

God is point X
or
Point X does not exist
I do not exist

The mystery of dark energy, the background noise, or fabric of the universe.

None of which go to further the cause for believing in a deity. String theory does much to explain these things without needing to resort to a deity.

Furthermore, "time" does not exist separate from space. What we call "time" is simple chronology used to keep past events in order.

originally posted by: intrepid
Theism and atheism are both faiths. The answer is beyond us. Can you prove god? No. Can you disprove god? No. Therefore both depend on faith, which isn't fact. Arguing about an unprovable is akin to intellectual masturbation.

If you think this thread is about trying to disprove (or prove) that God exists, you (and many others on this thread) are mistaken. The point, which I thought the OP was clear about (evidently not) was that any idea about god can be shown to be irrational.

So, some people say "God exists" - show that that is irrational.

That is not the purpose of this thread. First, tell me what you understand God to be, then I will show how your understanding is irrational.

a reply to: enlightenedservant

was curious what angle you were going to use to "prove that belief in God is irrational." But disappointingly, you chose the "attack" method.

Did you feel attacked? I figured you may - hence the reason for the disclaimer, so that you could know that despite feeling that there was no malicious intention. It is common to feel attacked when one's positions do not agree with our own.

Also, your list of "points" about Islam are not only wrong, but they have nothing to do with what I said or why I became a Muslim.

Yes, I realized later on in your post that the whole Qur'an and prophethood don't really matter to you. However, please understand that this is a bit like a person saying s/he is Christian, but the incarnation or prophecy of Isaiah are unimportant.

Why would it matter? You've already shown that you think this is/was all in my head.

Simply proposing an alternative.

Some were creatures during sleep paralysis episodes, some were guardians keeping others at a distance, some were blah blah blah.

Sleep paralysis - interesting. But what makes you think what you saw during sleep paralysis was a vision and not a hallucination created in the mind. Please note you will find me discuss the same thing on my "agnostic" thread where I clearly question whether or not hallucinations come from the mind or from an external source experienced only by the recipient of the input. I'm not saying you didn't have visions - simply that there are explanations for it besides "god."

It was just one of the beings that had been chastising me for doubting God, "standing" in between the doctors as they tried to convince me that there was nothing there.

By "convince" do you mean they were just telling you "nothing is there" or they actually ran a scan of your brain to test for any abnormalities that may have led to such visions/hallucinations?

I'm literally a "Muslim" in the truest form of the word.

Fair enough - even though that does not go well with "Islam" which does have a set of doctrine, beliefs, etc. (I acknowledge there are many varieties that do not agree on everything). You seem more a free-thinker who believes there is "something greater" so to speak.

Oh & I kinda answered that in my first paragraph; God is the creator of what we call "existence".

This told me a bit about what you believe about God, not why you believe (this is explained more by the "hallucinations"). Now, help me here - this is my thought process:
God created existence
ergo: Before God created existence, there was no existence
If there was not existence before God created it, how can God exist?

Unless:
God is existence - in which case we are not saying anything special about God, but merely flipping words around by putting "God" in place of "existence."
Ergo: Belief in God is the belief that everything exists (versus a belief in non-existence - which to me seems absurd).

I could also never submit to something that I could defeat (except maybe to my future wife).

Ha - take it from me, the woman is always right. Happy wife, happy life.

I asked that because you were going to prove without science how believing in God is "irrational".

The unscientific answer to that would be that with various possible explanations of your experiences, it is not rational to just assume one. A more specific answer must use science in a way in that there are explanations that are:

a). completely unknowable and based on conjectures and assumptions (i.e. "god")
b). not absolute truth, but based on repeated tests and observation (i.e. science)

Furthermore, here are some questions to ponder:

Can we reproduce what God does? If so, what makes God so special?

Would God create us as intelligent beings if what we learn through science is purely false? To not adhere to science would seem, to me at least, to believe that God is a deceiver. Then again, check my thread regarding the notion of Satan/Lucifer as the creator of the world for more on that.

"Mental illness" seemed to be your main answer, but I think that's a "scientific" cop out.

No, my main answer would be "epilepsy." But of course, there could be other things. If you have a vision, are you still able to function normally or do you feel a sense of paralysis/spacing-out? As for being a "cop-out" - not at all. It's an explanation.

The truth is that our sciences still don't understand many things about the human mind.

Actually, much is understood about the brain - including the events you described happening to you. Of course, neurology only explains "what" is happening - "why" is anyone's guess. Still, to think actual beings/apparitions visited you rather than your mind created these visions is irrational based on the reasons I've given above.

a reply to: Klassified

I think I saw somewhere that an anti-theist was someone who not only does not believe in God, but wouldn't want there to be a god to believe in. Or maybe I'm confusing things with something Richard Dawkins (who is a positive atheist, but not anti-theist) said.

originally posted by: ChesterJohn
a reply to: Klassified

A lack of belief is in itself a religion under the definition of religion.

Yeah, that's what I keep hearing.

originally posted by: Klassified

originally posted by: ChesterJohn
a reply to: Klassified

A lack of belief is in itself a religion under the definition of religion.

Yeah, that's what I keep hearing.

Some people just do not know what a "religion" is.

originally posted by: Klassified

originally posted by: ChesterJohn
a reply to: Klassified

A lack of belief is in itself a religion under the definition of religion.

Yeah, that's what I keep hearing.

It is a very easy thing to figure out. It only needs to meet the definition of religion look at the third line in the definition of religion used as a Noun (underlined for you)

Religion
noun
re·li·gion ri-ˈli-jən

: the belief in a god or in a group of gods

: an organized system of beliefs, ceremonies, and rules used to worship a god or a group of gods

: an interest, a belief, or an activity that is very important to a person or group

Yup, it meet the definition of a religion because Atheism is an interest, a belief (I find that to be true because non belief is a belief form), an activity that is important to a person or a group (definitely so).