Debating Theism

a reply to: namelesss

So, basically...religion is a disease? If that's what you're saying, I'd agree. And the cure is logic.

a reply to: scorpio84

I will posit here that I can, without using science as a backdrop, prove that belief in God is irrational.

How does one prove something that can't be proven to another?

Personal experience is beyond proof

a reply to: Akragon

Yes, if someone says "I had a personal experience with god" then that cannot be debunked using logic. However, if that experience is described, I'd bet it can be.

originally posted by: scorpio84
a reply to: namelesss

So, basically...religion is a disease? If that's what you're saying, I'd agree. And the cure is logic.

That's what I'm saying!
But all 'logic' exists in the same imagination as 'beliefs', the same vanity!
It has been shown that 'logic' alone, cannot 'cure a 'belief'!
The only thing that can Heal 'beliefs' must transcend the vain hair-of-the-dog of other imaginary means!
Only the natural death of thought/beliefs (couple centuries), and unconditional Love will Heal (us all together) any strain of 'belief' infection!!
A good handle on logical critical thought can inhibit 'beliefs', but not understanding of their viral nature makes for vulnerability!

originally posted by: scorpio84
a reply to: Akragon

Yes, if someone says "I had a personal experience with god" then that cannot be debunked using logic. However, if that experience is described, I'd bet it can be.

Personally IF I had an "experience" with God... I would keep it as my own...

which I do...

There was a man that knew God... remembered being in his presence...

learn about HIM and things seem to fall into place when it comes to GOD

a reply to: scorpio84

God = love = opposite of matter = oppisite of dimension = conscious thought

OP. Give up. You have not even started asking the right questions. Your understanding of the concept of god is to small minded. You are making the same mistake as people who believe they know something just because they have faith that they do. Subjective reasoning is not objective reasoning gained from experience and testing reality.

The oneness (non dualistic) exists and it is created thru entanglement on a quantum scale causing synchronicity. First become psychic/empath and then when you know how the abilities work start to discuss how reality is connected.

originally posted by: scorpio84
a reply to: Pinke

I like Buddhism, too. Maybe it's from having lived in Thailand for 6 years and being surrounded by it. Anyhow, I direct you to a quote in the OP:

I will posit here that I can, without using science as a backdrop, prove that belief in God is irrational.

I said nothing about viable philosophical claims. Buddhists are atheists - so there is no god to prove the irrationality of, so to speak.

Buddhist are not atheists. They believe in Dharma and the oneness just like Hinduism, Buddhism, Sikhism and Jainism.

In Buddhism you can see Dharma as the perfect object truth of everything that includes all subjective false views.

en.wikipedia.org...

Dharma refers not only to the sayings of the Buddha, but also to the later traditions of interpretation and addition that the various schools of Buddhism have developed to help explain and to expand upon the Buddha's teachings. For others still, they see the Dharma as referring to the "truth," or the ultimate reality of "the way that things really are" (Tib. Cho).

a reply to: enlightenedservant

I agree with you that the Darkness do exist on this level and can be very annoying. You seem to have been blessed and cursed by awareness and your third eye have been reconfigured. You know about synchronicity (The coincidences). .

It is not easy is it, having prof of the unknown? I wish you find a place where you feel at home and loved if you want it.

a reply to: scorpio84
Just putting in my 2 pence before reading the thread. Most beliefs are irrational to start with. There's a part of me that believes there is no such thing as death. Just a continuance without this shell we call a body. However, I can't prove that, so technically it's an irrational belief. Even the most hardened scientists among us have beliefs. It's human nature.

originally posted by: enlightenedservant

originally posted by: scorpio84
Just post and give me your religion. If you do not have a religion or if your idea of God is slightly different from your religion, then make a post explaining what you understand God to be.

I'll take the bait.

Islam is my religion, non-denominational. I worship, respect & fear the Creator of what we call "existence". (warning: I'm going to type a lot lol)

I'll try to explain my acceptance of God & Shaytan from a purely "rational" perspective. But I'll start by saying this: I don't drink alcohol, haven't used any type of recreational drugs since I was in high school, and have never been diagnosed with any mental disorders. I'd tell you more about my educational background but there's no point, since being "intelligent" or "dumb" has nothing to do with this.

For nearly all of my life, I've seen visions & "hallucinations". Some of those hallucinations have taught me good things and tried to help me in life; while others have tried to lure me into bad situations & hurt me.

For nearly all my life, I've had 2 separate sets of voices in my head. One set taught me the horrors of humankind, taught me that humans weren't worthy of ruling the Earth, and guided me towards "negative knowledge" (as in, how to manipulate, control, rule, and maintain power over others). I believe a vague scientific term for it is "intrusive thoughts". The other set of voices gave me positive guidance in life, encouraged me to help others (even when I didn't want to help them), chastised me when I did wrong, and forewarned me of negative situations & how to avoid them. I believe the scientific terms for this are our "conscience" & "intuition".

And for nearly all of my life, I've been able to randomly feel the presence of things I couldn't see. Those presences would line up with the corresponding voices & hallucinations. I spent my early high school years testing the voices, hallucinations, and presences to see if they were accurate. I'd literally test if their conclusions were right or wrong, test if they could physically touch me, and other things like this.

After years of learning & testing, I came to my 1st set of conclusions: the "evil" presence was real; it was correct in its assessment of humankind's flaws; it could teach me things no person could teach me; it wanted to destroy me & every other living creature (particularly humans & evil humans); it could only physically "touch" me while I was in an altered spiritual state (drugs, meditation, half sleep, etc); and I absolutely wanted to destroy it once I'd learned all of its techniques. For what it's worth, at the time, I believed I was destined to go into a spiritual realm & fight that presence until one of us was annihilated. Yeah... Anyway, I started trying to match up my conclusions with the ghost, spirits, youkai, legends, and demons from different religions & cultures. "Shaytan" as depicted in the Qur'an matched my conclusions.

It took me until my Senior year in high school to come to my conclusion about God. I'd kept testing the positive voices & hallucinations with ridiculous & arrogant tests and it would "answer" me in equally ridiculously ways. Sometimes directly in my head, sometimes through people, sometimes with large scale or small scale "coincidences", etc. The coincidences, voices, and hallucinations kept corresponding in conjunction at a rate that I could no longer consider random.

Yet I stayed defiant until roughly a month before I turned 18. The positive voices & "presence" got sick of my non-commitment, so it chastised me for 2 straight weeks. The hallucinations & voices kept telling me that this punishment was nothing compared to Hell. But I stayed defiant. I went to the hospital & they couldn't find anything wrong with me, even though there was a hallucination standing between 2 of the doctors the whole time. They didn't even give me any medication for the hallucinations (fail doctors lol). Then the chastisement reached its peak, everything blocked out (maybe I passed out?), and the presence led me to the entrance into something horrific. This & my 2 weeks straight of being chastised finally broke me, so I fell on my knees & made a deal with God.

The chastisement went away and the presence said it would then reward me with something. Some occult groups call it "the sight" or "being a seer". Basically, it let me see a soul & how much influence jinn had on that particular soul. It was cool at first, then it started freaking me out, then I begged for it to be taken away. This was literally just the beginning of my "irrational" path as a Muslim (which literally means "one who submits to God").

My parents are also Muslims but they never tried to force us down that path. I'd visited churches with my friends & studied many different religions to quench my curiosity for the truth. And because of my reasons for becoming a Muslim, it wouldn't matter to me if the Qur'an was real or not, if all of the Prophets were real or fake, or anything like that. Because none of those things had anything to do with why I'm a Muslim. That's also why I'm not bound by any denomination or their interpretations. And to be blunt, I'm more convinced that God, His Angels, Shaytan, Heaven & Hell are real than I am that any of you are real. After all, everyone in this thread could actually be "trolls", alternate accounts, law students who post online to gain experience for debating points you don't agree with, or even some of those programs that test if people can distinguish between AI & real people.

I think I've been open & clear with my words. So where are you going with this?

I love it when people say,

, it wouldn't matter to me if the Qur'an was real or not, if all of the Prophets were real or fake, or anything like that. Because none of those things had anything to do with why I'm a Muslim.

originally posted by: scorpio84
I will posit here that I can, without using science as a backdrop, prove that belief in God is irrational. So, theists, are any of you up for it? Just post and give me your religion. If you do not have a religion or if your idea of God is slightly different from your religion, then make a post explaining what you understand God to be.

I believe that some sort of energy created everything around us. I believe that ''GOD'' is a central unit that holds everything in one place and the energy from that unit creates other little units to express itself. I believe energy is what fuels our organic bodies and this energy is coming from one source. I do not believe in entities that are superior to one, I do not believe a man is god and I do not believe in the word of supposed messengers of god. If we are all apart of one single unit that makes us all the same but different because that unit expressed itself in another way. I am not bound by religion, however I have a belief system that is related to spiritual science not religion, for example subjects like reincarnation, life after death and ghosts. These are my beliefs , but I do know that it can be false. These beliefs merely exist because of my fear of nothing after death.

a reply to: scorpio84

I love philosophy


I am personally a Christian, but obviously if you don't believe in any creator then it would be absurd for me to try to persuade you in a specific creator.

The first topic we should discuss then is not my personal God, but rather a generic idea of a creator or creators of this particular reality. We will also need to determine what we can tell about that creator or creators, if he exist, from observing our reality.

So why am I on the affirmative side?

Well first I'd say without God we have no logical way to justify our belief that we have ability to acquire knowledge. What is the assumption we make that all sciences, all human beings and even all animals on earth use everyday? David Hume called it the principle of Uniformity in Nature. It is the assumption that a particular point in the past gives us information about an unobserved point in time in the future. For example, Science assumes that if we can repeat an experiment multiple times under the same conditions and the same occurrence occurs every time then we have knowledge about that effect. You and I don't touch fire with our bare hands often. Why? Because we assume fire will always burn us. Why? Because we assume observed instance of fire burning us in the past means fire will burn us in the future. Yet, there is no logical basis for this assumption. In fact, when trying to justify this assumption one will always fall into circular reasoning. So in order to argue for God's existence I will use what is called a reductio ad absurdum. YOU WILL DO WELL TO REMEMBER THE FORM OF ARGUMENT I AM USING, IT WILL MAKE THE CONVERSATION GO MORE SMOOTH.

In order to do so I will have to define what is meant by God in the context of this argument. God here is defined as a transcendent mind that created the totality of existence.

Statement:
God exist and the universe is designed, if the universe is designed then anything that exist in the universe functions in a particular way. In other words, because a design is made with a purpose and particular functions in mind we have good reason to believe that an observed instance in the past will tell us about an unobserved instance in the future.

So where is the reductio ad absurdum?

That comes into play in the axiom above. If you deny that axiom you are left with an absurd result that being that everything you do would be based on a logical fallacy meaning the resulting world view would be absurd because its foundation is absurd. So have at it friend.

My "faith" is that we are smart tool making mammals who invented the tool of religion to explain the unknown after we die.

Why do people equate religion to afterlife when it has more to do with the current life people live?

You can't follow a religion if you are dead in the ground or gone to the other side.

one meaning of the word religion is overlooked and it is:

Religion
: an interest, a belief, or an activity that is very important to a person or group

according to this definition Atheism is a religion. It is an interest, belief, and activity that is important to the OP as an individual and to a whole swath of society around the world today.

So you see religion has less to do with the after life as it does with what you practice today.

Theism is just one facet of the human religious system. For some smoking is a religion, others it is reading, and others organized protesting, and like the OP Atheism.

Religion is not so much about the afterlife as it is about what you do in this life.

an Instruction to Christians before you engage in this please remember that God gave these people over to debating as part of their not wanting to keep God in their knowledge.

Romans 1:28-32 And even as they did not like to retain God in their knowledge, God gave them over to a reprobate mind, to do those things which are not convenient; Being filled with all unrighteousness, fornication, wickedness, covetousness, maliciousness; full of envy, murder, debate, deceit, malignity; whisperers, Backbiters, haters of God, despiteful, proud, boasters, inventors of evil things, disobedient to parents, Without understanding, covenantbreakers, without natural affection, implacable, unmerciful: Who knowing the judgment of God, that they which commit such things are worthy of death, not only do the same, but have pleasure in them that do them.

a reply to: ChesterJohn

What version of the Bible you are reading?

originally posted by: ServantOfTheLamb
a reply to: ChesterJohn

What version of the Bible you are reading?

What difference does it make?

But if you want to know just compare it to any version you like and discover which one it is.

a reply to: ChesterJohn

I agree that is in there, the wording there is just goofy to me lol.

a reply to: ServantOfTheLamb

Read it again slowly, it give voluminous understanding in the person who wants to debate.

It is written in 6th grade English.

a reply to: ChesterJohn

I don't think that means those people cannot change their position though. I think there comes a certain point, but you and I are not omniscient. Scorpio maybe a sincere person who simply believes that he has found logical flaws in all ideas of God. I don't think you should assume just cause he used the word debate that God has already given him over to a depraved mind, even if he has I believe repentance(a change of mind) is always an option.