Debating Theism

a reply to: ChesterJohn

Now accept the one who is weak in faith, but not for the purpose of passing judgment on his opinions.

a reply to: ChesterJohn
The word you are translating as "debate" is found in other translations as "strife".
Since it follows "envy" and "murder", it is probably talking about something stronger than "debate". At the very least, there needs to be an element of malice in it.

The word is ERIS, genitive ERIDOS.
Given in the lexicons as "altercation, strife, contentious disposition".

a reply to: ServantOfTheLamb

I never said they couldn't change neither does the text.

I don't see the word "depraved" any where in any text I quoted. But seeing you put Mind with it you would do well to get a dictionary and understand that a "reprobate mind" is not the same as a "depraved mind". While the word Reprobate may have indications of depravity it is much more than that.

You are instructed to teach with all gentleness and without debate. However, there are many here will not accept it.

2Ti 2:24 And the servant of the Lord must not strive; but be gentle unto all men, apt to teach, patient, 25 In meekness instructing those that oppose themselves; if God peradventure will give them repentance to the acknowledging of the truth; 26 And that they may recover themselves out of the snare of the devil, who are taken captive by him at his will.

I give up trying to teach or debate on this issue any longer at ATS

a reply to: DISRAELI

Debate and Strife are two different things. While debating is a form of strife, you would do well to understand that striving is not always debating.

I will say this and no more on the subject Certain English words better represent God's words and Word than others. Those in the text I quote, I religiously trust they are the preserved words promised by God in Ps 12 -6. 7 to this generation.

Good day.

a reply to: ChesterJohn

I never said they couldn't change neither does the text.

I don't see the word "depraved" any where in any text I quoted. But seeing you put Mind with it you would do well to get a dictionary and understand that a "reprobate mind" is not the same as a "depraved mind". While the word Reprobate may have indications of depravity it is much more than that.

Simply just another translation of that text, and the definition of those words are actually quite similar lol. The word that is being translated is adokimos and it just means that whatever is being described doesn't meet a particular standard. It fails to pass a test. The test being spoken of here is a moral test. I don't think a friendly debate is a moral issue. The word debate is really just a synonym to a conversation to me. That is at least how I approach them.

a reply to: DISRAELI

PS I didn't translate any word as found in the text. It means what it means no translation needed.

a reply to: ChesterJohn

You are using an English version that has been translated from Greek brother. Debate and Strife are two different translations of the Greek.

originally posted by: ChesterJohn
Debate and Strife are two different things. While debating is a form of strife, you would do well to understand that striving is not always debating.

Exactly so. That's why I find it significant that the Greek word used in the text represents "strife" rather then "debate".
We are not forbidden to debate. We are just warned that some of those on the other side will be unnecessarily aggressive.

Does not Peter tell us to be "always ready with a reason"?

And Proverbs gives double advice.
On the one hand
"Answer a fool according to his folly, lest he be wise in his own eyes" (That's debate)
On the other hand
"Answer not a fool according to his folly, lest you be like him yourself" (That's strife)
Proverbs ch26 vv4-5

a reply to: scorpio84

So, basically...religion is a disease? If that's what you're saying, I'd agree. And the cure is logic.

HAHA according to what I put forth to you on page 2 logic is the death of your ideologies.

Chester Disraeli Servant

“Judge not, that you be not judged. For with the judgment you pronounce you will be judged, and with the measure you use it will be measured to you. Why do you see the speck that is in your brother's eye, but do not notice the log that is in your own eye? Or how can you say to your brother, ‘Let me take the speck out of your eye,’ when there is the log in your own eye? You hypocrite, first take the log out of your own eye, and then you will see clearly to take the speck out of your brother's eye.


Comon shhh op will have a lot of work

a reply to: Layaly
Why have you decided to address that to me?
My response will be to query whether you really understand what Jesus meant by "judging".
Jesus said; Judge not
I won't pursue the "judging" issue further on this thread.

a reply to: DISRAELI

only because of the OP
We are going off topic

The quote
it was addressed to you because I had a feeling you were going to be addressed again with something that's of topic



EDIT
The key word was 'brother'

a reply to: scorpio84

This sounds like fun! I believe in god.
Here is my definition:
Throughout human cultural evolution we called the forces influencing our life which were beyond our logical understanding of that time, god.
So do i. My modern version of god is the Lord of time, the force which makes synchronicity happen. Since it was always said, he is like no other being and at all places at all times, it is naturally an unlocateable force. The mystery of dark energy, the background noise, or fabric of the universe.

Your turn:

originally posted by: LittleByLittle
a reply to: enlightenedservant

I agree with you that the Darkness do exist on this level and can be very annoying. You seem to have been blessed and cursed by awareness and your third eye have been reconfigured. You know about synchronicity (The coincidences).

.

It is not easy is it, having prof of the unknown? I wish you find a place where you feel at home and loved if you want it.

Thanks. And yeah, I actually considered it a curse for most of my life. I'd always ask the presences "why me?". Though I was also grateful because a lot of things that seemed obvious or like "common sense" to me seemed to pass by other people unnoticed. So I was glad that I could actually notice stuff, even though I didn't necessarily know what to do with it.

I've got a pretty strong form of empathy too, which I thought had literally driven me crazy. I'd randomly start feeling other people's emotions which is "odd", to say the least. It took me up until a few years ago to finally contain my empathy, though now I can even feel it to an extent with animals. I think part of that is because I made an active decision to stop eating meat & to accept that "all life is precious". Now I see them more as beings with communities, homes, families, fears, and desires, instead of simply as "food", "pests", "pets", and "bugs".

a reply to: namelesss

If I believed in believing I would believe that this was the best post I have ever read on ATS. Only after years of believing this and that have I been able to even question belief itself. I have managed to consider it as a 'soul killer' as a door slamming shut in the doorway to enlighenment, as a noose around the neck of ones freedom. You howeverhave helped toss those fledgling concepts aside with your thought that it is a desease, an infection. Man, that is wonderful.

originally posted by: ServantOfTheLamb
a reply to: ChesterJohn

You are using an English version that has been translated from Greek brother. Debate and Strife are two different translations of the Greek.

Which Greek, Whose Greek, the Numerous Greek dictionaries out there Stephanus, Vine's, Strongs et all are all based on "Classical Greek". No one I know speaks Koine Greek nor has there been anyone speaking it since about 250AD. There was never any Koine Greek Dicitonaries found to prove any translation from the Koine Greek is correct. ALL anyone has are copies (not the originals) of a Bible, and every copy gets corrupted. The reason for so many different translations from the supposed Greek is because "many" didn't and don't seek God for his inspiration so God can preserve his words as he promised.

One version proves itself as that preserved word and apart from that all other versions are trash, and going to Greek to clarify what God preserved in his English is to change and corrupt the word of God.

originally posted by: ServantOfTheLamb
a reply to: ChesterJohn

You are using an English version that has been translated from Greek brother. Debate and Strife are two different translations of the Greek.

could not the word mean both?

One English word that incorporates all the meanings is best and less confusing, while others use only one pinpoint meaning of the word.

Look at the Word Eschew for example. It incorporated, not just hate, but shun, turn away from, loath, not condoning, not rubbing elbows with. but one version will say hate, another shun, and yet another uses another word. God preserved it with words that are representative of his Holy Person and Mind.

a reply to: enlightenedservant

Please don't take any of my reply as a personal attack, even if it does "attack" your faith.

First of all, when you tell me you follow Islam, the very first things I think of are the following:

-religion based primarily on Judaism and Christianity with some tweaks to make it applicable to tribes living in what is now Saudi Arabia
-apparently God commands his prophets to marry 6 year olds (Aisha) when they are 50 (or was it 40 -still pedophilia in my book)
-regarding the pedophilia: marriage consummated when Aisha was 9 years old; she was giving him baths before then (if you need, I'll spend the time to get you direct sources on this or any claim I make)
-an 'enlightened' religion, yet uses OT tactics: wholesale murder, rape; only difference is the option of "convert or die"
-its prophet didn't even know whether or not he was being spoken to by God or by Satan; aka clear confusion
-Qur'an and Sunnah compiled by people with various agendas - if the illiteracy story is to be believed, then Muhammad had no real way of verifying anything

Now, onto your particular points:

I'd tell you more about my educational background but there's no point, since being "intelligent" or "dumb" has nothing to do with this.

I agree fully with this. Too much "faith" is given to people with degrees. For the record, I do not think religious people are "insane" or "stupid" or anything like that.

For nearly all of my life, I've seen visions & "hallucinations". Some of those hallucinations have taught me good things and tried to help me in life; while others have tried to lure me into bad situations & hurt me.

Interesting. Have you considered that you may have been having seizures? Remember, seizures don't have to result in you laying on the ground, convulsing with foam at the mouth.

For nearly all my life, I've had 2 separate sets of voices in my head...and other things like this.

Are you sure you have checked your mental health? I think most people have an idea of right and wrong (at least a socially-constructed idea of it) - but hearing voices or seeing things is not normal. You are either a prophet or suffering the effects of a mental illness (I attach no stigma to the word - I have one, too - panic disorder). If you haven't been checked for epilepsy, you may want to be. Epilepsy is nothing new in the world of prophethood.

My favorite quote from that site:

What if the behaviors recorded thousands of years ago that has been the basis for so much religious zealotry is simply better understood in the context of mental illness? We always say if it walks like a duck, looks like a duck and swims like a duck, there is a good chance we may be dealing with a duck. When it comes to religion however we change our perceptions. If it walks like a narcissist, if it talks like a Para or schizophrenic and if it has all the symptoms of temporal lobe epilepsy, it must be a man of God!

After years of learning & testing

What sort of tests?

I went to the hospital & they couldn't find anything wrong with me, even though there was a hallucination standing between 2 of the doctors the whole time.

You may have noticed I reply in the order I read something. So If I respond to something you've already answered, don't feel offended or anything - it's just my particular style or responding to long posts. I find it odd you had a hallucination in front of the doctors and they couldn't find anything wrong. First: what did the hallucination look like? Second, did the doctors run tests using EEG, MRI, etc.?

because none of those things had anything to do with why I'm a Muslim.

I get the impression (correct me if I'm wrong) that you are "Muslim" in name primarily. It is the religion of your parents, so it's just easier to also adopt that faith.

Your story is interesting, but there's one slight problem: I still don't know your concept of God. You told me why you believe, but not what you believe. I'd think it was Allah, but then:

And because of my reasons for becoming a Muslim, it wouldn't matter to me if the Qur'an was real or not, if all of the Prophets were real or fake, or anything like that. Because none of those things had anything to do with why I'm a Muslim.

Let's forget about the possibility of epilepsy, schizophrenia, etc. for a moment. When I read your post, I get the distinct impression that your faith came about through fear. Do you truly believe that a loving God (I assume you believe in this if you are Muslim) would use fear and torment someone with visual/aural hallucinations? A means to and end? Perhaps, but there would be other, kinder, means to the same end available to Allah, don't you think?

So where are you going with this?

Heck if I know - we'll find out. In discussions of a philosophical nature, it isn't the destination that matters - it's the path.

a reply to: namelesss

Link me to your thread in the philosophy section and I'd be glad to participate. I like your ideas very much, but they don't belong in this particular thread. It's just distracting.

a reply to: Layaly

So, basically God=conscious thought.

What do you understand by "conscious thought." Is it subjective or objective? Do you mean universal consciousness or human consciousness? If it's the latter, that would mean you think of as God being a fabrication of the imagination, making you atheist, with "God" being no more than a word that holds no meaning.