God loves you, and I believe some of you may have experienced him in your life without knowing it.

originally posted by: WakeUpBeer
a reply to: ServantOfTheLamb

What about his actions in the Old Testament? You know the ones I refer to by now, I assume. Don't you think a loving being could have dealt with those situations in a lot more loving manner? Instead of smiting sinners, ordering genocides etc. Why not use his loving power to bring everyone into his embrace? Why all the fire and brimstone? That doesn't sound like the character of a being that is love imo.

This is from Gen 6, but the principle is the same.

Gen 6:3 And the LORD said, My spirit shall not always strive with man

a reply to: BELIEVERpriest
I am a believer and agree with you fully, but I'd just like to know what you're doing with that chicken?

a reply to: somnum

Well I do believe in ultimate justice, and I do believe Christ is the only way to the Father. All of whom are love. So we are not completely separated from God's presence. Love exist here and most of us can say we've experienced it at some point in time. When someone goes to hell I believe it is the first time in their existence that love will no longer remain in their presence. So I also believe in hell. But that is simply the only alternative God has. Love is the good news, but in order to understand the amount of love God has for you, an understanding of our sinful nature is needed. The recognition of the part of us that isn't always loving. As the distributor of ultimate justice our evil actions must be punished not because god wills it, but because his nature demands it. The good news is God loves us so much that he took care of us. Like the story of the prodigal son. A man who willingly made bad decisions but was welcomed back with open arms by his father. Repentance is to have a change of mind about how it is that you are to be saved. Asking Christ into your heart is the only way to salvation, but is that really asking anything other than for you to admit you've made mistakes and to welcome Christ into your life?

The point of disagreement is that you feel being loving and forgiving will make up for sin. I believe that we are set free by Christ, and that his presence in you will make you loving and forgiving as he is Love. So where as you see works then heaven. I see heaven then works. I don't really understand peoples issue with hell. Its not like God ask you to do anything to avoid it, other than to enter a loving relationship with him. John 14:6 is not the only place Jesus says he is the only way to the Father. Sorry if I busted your bubble with the hell talk. But it is part of Scripture. So if we are going to take Scripture as a source from God we can't really pick and choose what parts we want to call true and what parts we want to call false.

a reply to: JohnthePhilistine

That's between the chicken and I.

a reply to: ServantOfTheLamb

It's not the prospect of hell that bothers me, it's the idea that you must be necessarily Christian in order to escape it. Not only does it negate any idea of God as being love - because bear in mind, we're not talking about sin. We could imagine someone who is as saintly as anyone who has ever existed, but not be Christian, and you're saying he would be condemned to hell for that? It's ludicrous.

I know when Christianity took off, trying to convert the pagans of Greek culture, they frequently criticized the capriciousness of their gods. In my mind, there is nothing more capricious than condemning even the nicest, most modest, compassionate person to an eternity of torment because they weren't Christian. That's not the behavior of an enlightened being, it's the behavior of a child, and a poor one at that. It's so absurd that it must be wrong for other aspects of Christianity to be true.

a reply to: ServantOfTheLamb

You mentioned asking Christ into your heart? What exactly does that mean?

I'm not a fan of that wording, because I believe it is a misuse of the Letter to Laodicea (which was addressed to apostate believers, not non-believers).

I believe eternal life comes by simply believing that Jesus died for our sins.

However, one could ask Christ into their heart and still fail to believe that He died for our sins. The same goes for "making Christ our Lord", or "accepting" or "acknowledging".

I prefer to keep it as simple as believing. Else one might miss the point.

originally posted by: ServantOfTheLamb
I suppose if he could have he would have? But thats a very broad topic we would have to take it one section at a time and study what the context actually says to see why God does what he does. Does he warn people first? Doesn't Abraham intercede for Sodom, and the Abraham continues to question the lord about what he would do if one righteous person was among them. The lord keeps going lower and lower saying if 40 righteous are there I wouldn't destroy it. Then 30. Then 20.

When you're an omnipotent being that is also love, than is there any situation where smiting any number of people is the loving merciful solution? Put yourself in God's shoes for a moment if you will. You are all powerful. Absolutely nothing is beyond you. How would you personally deal with, for example, Sodom and Gomorrah?

Love is not something you can force on people. It is a relationship people have to willingly enter and work at.

He wouldn't have to force it. He could reveal himself, or any number of things to show his existence and character of love. Also, why would a being that is love send those who don't believe in him, to hell? Why punish? Where is the mercy there? He must not be love.

Also that would affect free will which imo wouldn't be loving either. For example, you don't seem to want to live with the God of the Bible so if he loves you why would he force you into his presence forever?

God is totally ok with manipulating free will and does so on a number of occasions in the Bible. Typically it's hardening the hearts of those that don't believe in him, or despise him already. Is that a valid excuse for doing it? Pushing people that much closer to their damnation? Where's the love in that? Why not also do things that push people closer to him?

We are talking about an entity that is supposed to be omnipotent, and omniscient.

There is no way this entity can purely be love, with its track record. You can make the argument that we may not understand his reasons for this or that thing which we would view as cruel and despicable. But again, this is supposed to be an omnipotent and omniscient being. If I can think of better ways to go about doing things, there is a problem here..

a reply to: Akragon

so I guess its safe to assume the same about you?

Sure if you want. Won't upset me a bit.

the bible makes a lot of claims...

Paul claiming "all scripture is God breathed" certainly doesn't make it true

And once one actually reads or has read the book numerous times... it becomes quite evident that the opposite is actually the truth

Well aware of your issues with Paul as well lol, but I quoted it from Peter and could pull from old and new testament in other places that basically say the same thing. Jesus also quotes ancient Scripture as though it has authority, for example when satan tempts him in the wilderness. It seems like you don't really try to let the Bible interpret itself and if it is from God I believe doing so would bring you to a different conclusion than simply picking and choosing the parts you think fit. I don't see the disconnect between Paul and Jesus like you do.

You said God is love... yet that love does not come out in the majority of people I've met that adhere to said religion

And I agreed with you. Many Churches and church goers have forgotten that its not about rituals and ceremonies but rather its about a relationship. So we are right on the same page with each other there. The only difference is I think you have to accept Christ into your life before you can become completely one with love because I do see the sinful nature talked about in the Bible presence in myself and all the humans I have met. There is that need for a cleansing from Christ. Or at least thats what I get from Scripture and experience in life so far.

a reply to: BELIEVERpriest

Maybe I could have worded it better, good catch. It is pretty cliche. I think you have to believe he died for your sins, but I believe there is also a conversation that is needed between the lord and you initiating that personal relationship.

originally posted by: ServantOfTheLamb
Love is not something you can force on people. It is a relationship people have to willingly enter and work at. Also that would affect free will which imo wouldn't be loving either. For example, you don't seem to want to live with the God of the Bible so if he loves you why would he force you into his presence forever?

As free moral agents, every person makes the choice as to where he will spend eternity.

He will not force anyone against their will to go to Heaven.

Jesus: "I'm a gentleman Nick, I'll never force myself on you or anyone. Nick, what would be more unjust and unfair, for me to steal you at the moment of your death and force you to live in my presence and in my will for all eternity.

Jesus: Hell on the other hand is a place where you'll be completely free from all of my "though shalt nots"... FOREVER."

Melisa: But surely no one would choose that if they knew you really existed?

Jesus: Not so, nobody goes into hell blindfolded. In one way or another, I've revealed myself to everyone.

Melisa: But if they could just see you...

Jesus: Not even that would be enough. Look at satan, he stood before me in the very throne room of God. But he thought the beauty and the power bestowed was somehow earned. Gave himself over to pride. Scratch any sin and just below the surface you'll find pride...

...out of love, he allowed Lucifer to choose his own way and this is the same freedom the Lord gives to each of us. He's not going to force anyone to go to heaven that chooses that they don't want to, even if they once did. God doesn't make decisions for us, but He allows us to choose for ourselves. This has to be true, since sin entered the world because of bad choices made by Adam and Eve.

The Lord gave each of His created beings a free will. After we have accepted Jesus as our savior, we still have the freedom to turn back to a life of sin and to reject His grace. The Lord speaks about people being in danger of having their names removed from the Book of Life. (Exodus 32:33 & Revelation 3:5)

Can a Christian Lose Their Salvation?

originally posted by: BELIEVERpriest
a reply to: ServantOfTheLamb

I believe this sums up the whole topic.

John 3:16 For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have everlasting life. 

17 For God sent not his Son into the world to condemn the world; but that the world through him might be saved. 

18 He that believeth on him is not condemned: but he that believeth not is condemned already, because he hath not believed in the name of the only begotten Son of God. 

19 And this is the condemnation, that light is come into the world, and men loved darkness rather than light, because their deeds were evil. 

God loved us so much that He sent His Son so that we might rest our faith in Him and be saved. Those who do, love the light, those who don't, love the darkness, so they might hide their sins.

Jesus is the Lamb of God who took away the sins of the world. That is what we are asked to believe.

If Jesus was God's son, you would think that God didn't really think much of sacrificing his son as God is supposed to be omnipotent and omnipresent. Omnipotent would mean that he knew what he was doing to his son and did it anyway....

Besides, if GOD was GOD, why all the semantics with sending a proxy? can't GOD simply will it to be and that is it?!

a reply to: somnum

And there again you can see what you have an issue with. The issue is that even the person we imagine as saintly as anyone is still a sinner. You can't work of your sin. Which is why God stepped in and took care of you out of love. There is nothing to be ashamed of about that. I believe God sends people to hell because it is required by the part of his nature that is just. Rebellion, Justice and Mercy. How does one go about being a perfectly Just and Merciful being when something rebels? If you show justice then you have excused mercy and when you show mercy you have excused judgment. The only way I see out of that pickle is a scenario in which someone takes your place in justice so that mercy can be shown. Hints the whole Jesus is the only way thing.

a reply to: ServantOfTheLamb

I know you believe, not ragging on you or anything, I've just seen some really really REALLY bad stuff happen in Churches that used the 'cardiac invitation' gospel. A bit of PTSD I suppose. When it comes to eternal life, I will split hairs. My understanding is that letting Christ in is for believers who have turned away and Christ is "standing at the door knocking". Its fellowship (1John 1:9) vs salvation.

originally posted by: BELIEVERpriest
a reply to: ServantOfTheLamb



I believe eternal life comes by simply believing that Jesus died for our sins.

I believe what Mr. Stanhope says:

a reply to: notmyrealname

First off, Jesus was a willing sacrifice. Its not like He was caught by surprise.

Secondly, God had the world in mind (you, me, and everyone else).

Thirdly, Jesus was resurrected and glorified...So for God, it was a win/win/win.

a reply to: ServantOfTheLamb

Sure if you want. Won't upset me a bit.

Fair enough... im not trying to upset you, but turn about is fair play

Well aware of your issues with Paul as well lol, but I quoted it from Peter and could pull from old and new testament in other places that basically say the same thing. Jesus also quotes ancient Scripture as though it has authority, for example when satan tempts him in the wilderness.

Again I am well aware of the bible's claims... One thing Jesus did not say ironically is that all scripture is from God

in fact He cherry picked scripture like no one else... obviously because he knew the texts, and what was actually from God... and what was not

Yes... Jesus quoted the OT... but look at what he quotes... nothing but bits of passages.

And IF it was all from God, he wouldn't disagree with any of it... yet he did

It seems like you don't really try to let the Bible interpret itself and if it is from God I believe doing so would bring you to a different conclusion than simply picking and choosing the parts you think fit

That's because it doesn't actually interpret itself... that is a lie that has taken 1800 years for the church to figure out...

similar to all the "proof texts" for the trinity... after a few thousand years and millions of people going over the text with a fine toothed comb, all sorts of interesting theory/dogma started popping up

Considering its the most read, studied, and fought over book in the history of man... who can be surprised?

Its quite easy to "pick and choose" as you put it because to put it bluntly... its NOT one book

I don't see the disconnect between Paul and Jesus like you do.

You likely never will...

And I agreed with you. Many Churches and church goers have forgotten that its not about rituals and ceremonies but rather its about a relationship. So we are right on the same page with each other there.

Well we have agreed on a few points here and there over the past few years... progress?

The only difference is I think you have to accept Christ into your life before you can become completely one with love because I do see the sinful nature talked about in the Bible presence in myself and all the humans I have met.

So i'll restate my previous reply...what makes you think I haven't?

Is it because I will not claim to be a Christian?

Perhaps because I don't believe in the silly dogma of Christianity?

Sure everyone is sinful... no doubt... but do you believe accepting what Paul told you gives you the golden ticket into Christian heaven? Just belief... nothing else as Paul said

You will have a rude awakening one day brother... but don't believe me, what do I know right?

There is that need for a cleansing from Christ. Or at least thats what I get from Scripture and experience in life so far.

yeah... that's Paul...

Christ said its up to you to clean the inside...

a reply to: ServantOfTheLamb

How does one go about being a perfectly Just and Merciful being when something rebels? If you show justice then you have excused mercy and when you show mercy you have excused judgment.

You do know what the word Mercy means right?

there is nothing merciful about the concept of Hell... or at least what Christians consider "hell"

a reply to: Akragon

What about Justice?

Your stay in Hell is only by choice, and only a result of rejecting God incarnate. He died for our sins. To reject that is to reject His love.

originally posted by: BELIEVERpriest
a reply to: Akragon

What about Justice?

Your stay in Hell is only by choice, and only a result of rejecting God incarnate. He died for our sins. To reject that is to reject His love.

what about Justice?

You think the pains and torment of this world are just not enough??

This world drags people down to hell already... and every person asks why?

Good people, bad people... saints... everyone!

So you're saying after already dealing with the crap this world dishes out in our incarnation(s)... eternal torture is a solution?

That is the OT god...

That is not the Father Jesus spoke about... yes he mentioned "Gehenna" but what he meant is not what Christianity believes... It can't be...

and its more then likely Jesus actually didn't preach Hell at all... fear tactics of the church are infamous