For those who continue to believe nobody knows why the pyramids were built

originally posted by: redchad
a reply to: Byrd


I find it amazing that people still actually think these workings were made by primitive man using stone or even copper tools. How many artisan stonemasons some with 40 years in the industry have visited the site and said even with the hand tools available today they could not recreate some of these stone cuts.

Could you name some of the stonemasons? I know some sculptors who work in stone who don't find the techniques that out-of-bounds.

Sophisticated high speed machine cutting equipment would be needed along with highly trained operatives. You can see on the video cuts obviously made by a disc yet you still won't accept it. Circular holes drilled through granite with the exact measurements right through the cut. If this can be done using stone or copper tools why has no one ever proved it.

As Harte reminded me, they did have coring drills and copper saws (actually, a copper alloy, if memory serves.) Harte also posted a link where these ideas were tested - so this would answer your question about if it can be done or not.

Il give you a challenge that in 5 years time you could not put a 2 inch hole through a piece of 2 inch granite using stone or copper tools. It can't be done.
I would imagine you also think the earth is flat!

Since you like videos, here's part of one that shows them doing what you describe
video

And I'm sure there are others.

originally posted by: raytheo
a reply to: redchad

Good one
Nowadays cutpasting is called research...

If this can be done using stone or copper tools why has no one ever proved it.

I tried that it simply can't be done !

Neither of you seem to realize that The AE's might have had had bronze in the pyramid building era.

Bronze was a great improvement on copper. The oldest real bronze found in Egypt dates to the 4th dynasty and consists of 90% copper and 10% additional metals, which is about the best combination. Brittler than pure copper, it was easier to cast and could be hardened by repeated heating and hammering.

link

Nor do you realize that I've linked you to a modern experiment showing that it absolutely can be done. And Stocks used copper, not bronze.

Harte

ahah it was a good try but i think you're missing something here. just doesn't feel right you should try again

It's amazing how much time and effort the human species will waste on death-related pursuits.

a reply to: raytheo
Especially anything from Wikipedia itself. The encyclopedia that you, yourself can write! Looks like ATS has finally been invaded by the trolls

a reply to: Jenkinswasher
Which are the trolls? The ignorant that insist, in the face of all evidence, that the pyramids are something they aren't, or the posters that try to show why that idea is baseless?

And which are using Wiki?

Harte

There's nothing new under the sun. My opinion, we have had about 60,000 years of civilizations. Just starting at the Aboriginals of Australia for a number. What you have is civilizations with a written language bearing most of the weight of history, still much more vanished with never being known. Think Library of Alexandria.... To think aliens never visited Earth in the past seems implausible.

The Gods have an enviable job....

originally posted by: Jenkinswasher
a reply to: raytheo
Especially anything from Wikipedia itself. The encyclopedia that you, yourself can write! Looks like ATS has finally been invaded by the trolls

"The encyclopedia that you, yourself can write!" How about the encyclopedia that is a collaborative effort of thousands and thousands of people and continuously updated? All content on Wikipedia is not equal. Generally speaking, the amount of contributors, particularly expert contributors and the strictness of moderation of content/revisions rises proportionally with an article's popularity.

It's content can be freely distributed under the Creative Commons license which is convenient when you're excerpting to a forum.

All of the information in the five Wikipedia excerpts can be independently verified from multiple sources, starting with the citations from the articles themselves. If you can demonstrate where anything excerpted doesn't conform to current prevailing scientific opinion, please do.

I'd say that the only trolling going on here are the one-liner drive-by ad hominem attacks such as yours.

a reply to: Plotus
en.wikipedia.org...

The Giza Pyramids, in particular, have always been so fascinating to me, and remains to be a place that I hope to visit at some point in my life. Now, this is how I feel. We cannot say for sure why anything from so long ago was built given these particular circumstances, we weren't there to see it happen, and speculation is what all we have with absolute certainty.
I'm open to any possibility of their purpose. Since childhood, I've read countless books regarding extraterrestrial visitation in our remote past, and even more recent past, and I feel that it's completely possible that ETs had some hand in their construction, or are in the least connected to them somehow.

There's a point that I would like to make though, which is the main course of my response to the OP. It goes like this. We are talking about Egyptian pyramids, or ones in that general region of the planet. We need really need to keep in the front of our minds the fact that there are pyramids all across the globe, many of which are found along the supposed "ley lines" of the Earth, but that's not the point I'm trying to make.

These civilizations had no known way of contacting one another. Many of them existed during different time periods, as well. My question is, if humans built these structures, and the idea for them was conjured up by human minds alone, with no outside influence or help of any kind, how and why did these civilizations all come up with the same basic idea for these structures? I would think that maybe one civilization would come with a particular design and specific purpose, while others would have their own.

Our species are known for diversity pertaining to so many different things, especially something like architecture. This is why we find the many styles of buildings throughout the world, from the temples of India, to the very unique and specific appearance of many structures found in Japan and China. The diversity alone, versus the extraordinary fact of being able to find pyramids across the globe, many of which are in line with one another, separated by thousands of miles, leads me to believe that something externally cosmic could absolutely be the cause here.

a reply to: Byrd

The most mysterious pyramids are much older then we think, I believe. They were there before the first ‘ancient Egyptians’ came across. They were built by the so called gods long before the Great Flood.
Pharaoh’s thought they were gods too. Maybe they tried to replicate the great pyramids, or maybe far more pyramids then the most mysterious survived the Flood. Pharaoh’s just restored the pyramids. Not for the first time conspiracy theorists could be right.
Read www.evawaseerst.be...

a reply to: Byrd OK sorry about the delay but it's been a busy weekend. I was at first going to look for names of stonemasons who have visited the site and other megalithic sites stating cuts of these kind can't be recreated using basic hand tools. But you know what I have a life to get on with. Nevertheless most people if asked will confirm lots have been on various TV programs making the claim and even if I did have their names I'm not sure what that would achieve. Probably better if you got away from your screen and found an experienced stonemason showed him the samples as shown on the video and ask him.
I read stocks work and don't know how you can compare working with small vases in comparison to the granite coffer or other megalithic works.
I also watched the video lol same again the quality of the cut is absolutely no where near as good as those shown on the video.

It's a bit like me standing next to a pile of aluminium and bashing a piece of it with a rubber mallet and saying with enough time il make a space shuttle! Nonsense

originally posted by: s1ngular1tyMy question is, if humans built these structures, and the idea for them was conjured up by human minds alone, with no outside influence or help of any kind, how and why did these civilizations all come up with the same basic idea for these structures? I would think that maybe one civilization would come with a particular design and specific purpose, while others would have their own.

This is a question you can easily answer yourself

Imagine you have an easy supply of blocks

now go build an impressive structure for your gods using just the blocks,
remember, you don't have concrete and you don't have iron reinforcement
and to motivate you, if it falls down, you will be sacrificed to the gods

You should also consider, that this is cherry picking on an epic scale, you have ignored the thousands of cultures that didn't build pyramids and are now saying "wow look, there's a few which at first glance look similar, isn't that amazing"

Well no, not really, its laughable


If you actually take the time to study Egyptian culture outside of a pseudo historians easy reader book, then you quickly see the development from Mastaba to true pyramid, which takes in all the trial and error along the way. Radiocarbon dating even tells you the order of construction, Here, I'll make it east for you

this is a Mastaba tomb


this is a step pyramid


Can you see, they just stuck three more levels on top. Its that simple


The gizamids weren't the first, the Egyptians built pyramids for around 400 years and they have three thousand years of civilisation. The later ones contained spells to help the dead King pass into the afterlife, the earlier ones had mortuary temples outside which contained spells to help the dead King pass into the afterlife. So there goes the "we don't know why they were built argument."

I would think that maybe one civilization would come with a particular design and specific purpose, while others would have their own.

All the designs from different cultures are different and have different purposes, how did you miss that ?


and Aliens ?
so technologically advanced aliens came here, utilising advanced alloys and plastics for their space ships and then land and start teaching the locals how to build with materials they already were using. They didn't teach them about Iron, or cranes, or even basic nutrition. They didn't teach them math or medicine. just how to build piles of stone together, that's what you're saying right ?


The big problem with pyramidology, isn't with the evidence at all, when you aren't ignorant of it then you can't argue against it, its overwhelming. The big problem with pyramidology, is the opinions voiced by people who haven't taken the time required to study the culture. Who get most of their ideas from books written by journalists who haven't studied the culture either. Who's interest isn't in revelation at all, but is simply in making money from the gullible and that's the truth. Greed, not science

a reply to: zandra

No amount of evidence to the contrary will ever dissuade some people from holding unsubstantiated beliefs. In the case of the author of your link, all evidence from archaeology is simply dismissed as a lie because he just "knows" intuitively that the Egyptians couldn't have built "the real pyramids."

I'll go ahead and address a few of the points the author tries to make in the link you posted:

They assume that no other civilization before the Egyptians was able to build the pyramids. ‘Nowhere we found constructions older than say 4500 years and which show that mankind was able to build accurate and colossal construction works.’ That always was their explanation in the past.

Once they found Göbekli Tepe, authorities are apparently a little confused, because we don't hear this argument anymore.

This is a straw man argument but that's rather a moot point anyway because while Göbekli Tepe certainly changed some assumptions, it certainly isn't evidence of what he's claiming. It's impressive because of its age but bear in mind that the topmost (newest and most technologically advanced) layer of construction is unworked dry stacked stones and carved limestone pillars. It was backfilled with soil and debris bearing arrowheads and spear points and bones. These people didn't even have pottery let alone metallurgy or a written language. Clearly the people who built, occupied and later filled in and abandoned Göbekli Tepe weren't "lost gods."

If anything, it tends to preclude any hypothesis of a lost great technological civilization, capable of building the pyramids, having existed thousands of years before the Egyptians.

Archeologists found a buried boat in the vicinity of the pyramid of Khufu (Cheops). It was the boat which carried the body of Khufu to his final resting place. Consequently, there is no doubt that the pyramid was built by Khufu. Authorities agree with that explanation.

Here's another straw man argument. Afaik, the ships are attributed to Khufu because of their location next to the pyramid and not the other way around. Furthermore, a number of other ships have been found buried in pits in Egypt. What do they have in common? Their discovery in proximity to pyramids, mastabas and other tombs. Why does the author make no mention of these others? Because they demonstrate a common funerary tradition tying the pyramids to other types of tombs.

- In some pyramids workers made during construction graffiti. And that graffiti refers clearly to pharaohs as Khufu and Menkaure.

The authenticity of the graffiti is strongly questioned. (More on that follows.)

To mention just one point of doubt (there are more, believe us). ‘Graffiti above the king's chamber is authentic’ says Zahi Hawass (everyone who follows the pyramid enigma knows the man who represents the authorities). How can he know that? 'Authentic' graffiti was found in the four upper spaces above the King's chamber. Those spaces happen to be the four spaces discovered in 1837 by Howard Vyse. The bottom space was already discovered in 1760 but no sign of graffiti there. A coincidence? Or did Howard Vyse –who was under immense pressure to please his sponsors- made the graffiti himself?

The assumption here doesn't make any sense. Firstly, I personally think graffiti is a poor choice of words. What we're talking about isn't vandalism but marks left by builders in places that weren't meant to be seen. This is something that can be found in construction work to this day. Furthermore, similar red painted marks have been found in places that have been sealed since the pyramid's construction — discovered in recent years with robots able to traverse shafts that are like 20cm across.

- Sneferoe with his bent pyramid had originally a much higher construction in mind. However, because the foundations were not stable enough, he adjusted the slope during construction.

Unlikely anyway. Why did Sneferoe not immediately stopped building if saw the foundations weren’t good enough, changing the slope could not warrant anything. So he could immediately start to build his 'red' pyramid. And further: Why Sneferoe needed three pyramids? Because by the way: he allegedly has built a third one.

The argument here seems to be that the pyramid should have simply been abandoned if problems were encountered. In what way does it make sense to the author to basically throw away perhaps millions of man hours of labor rather than rework the design?

I could go on, but what would be the point? There's not one substantial argument put forth and if I haven't already given you reason enough to reconsider your belief in this nonsense by now, there's little hope that I will be able to at all.

a reply to: theantediluvian

And the Pyramids in China, South America, Indonesia, Middle-East, Cambodia...etc.?

Are they all evolved from Mastabas too?

originally posted by: MysterX
a reply to: theantediluvian

And the Pyramids in China, South America, Indonesia, Middle-East, Cambodia...etc.?

Are they all evolved from Mastabas too?

they were thousands of years apart, so unless you're claiming that the Aliens were also time travellers...

originally posted by: Marduk

originally posted by: MysterX
a reply to: theantediluvian

And the Pyramids in China, South America, Indonesia, Middle-East, Cambodia...etc.?

Are they all evolved from Mastabas too?

they were thousands of years apart, so unless you're claiming that the Aliens were also time travellers...

You seem to be fixated on aliens mate, i didn't mention them.

The fact that Pyramids are built at different times all over the Earth only increases the chances of Egyptians having copied pyramidal designs they might have encountered on their travels, not lessened the chances.

Wanna mention ET's again?

Just when you thought you knew everything,

Egypt detects 'impressive' anomaly in Giza pyramids

CAIRO (AP) — Two weeks of new thermal scanning in Egypt's Giza pyramids have identified anomalies, including a major one in the largest pyramid, the Antiquities Ministry announced Monday.

Antiquities Minister Mamdouh el-Damaty and technical experts working on the project showed the thermal differences in the pyramid in a live camera presentation to journalists.

The scanning showed "a particularly impressive one (anomaly) located on the Eastern side of the Khufu pyramid at ground level," the ministry said in a statement. The largest of the three Giza pyramids is known locally as Khufu and internationally as Cheops.

The thermal scanning was carried out during sunrise, as the sun heats the structures from the outside, and then during sunset as the pyramids are cooling down. The speed of the heating and cooling phases was used to uncover "hypotheses" such as empty areas in the pyramids, internal air currents, or different building materials used

"The first row of the pyramid's stones are all uniform, then we come here and find that there's a difference in the formation," said el-Damaty, pointing at the three stones showing higher temperatures.

While inspecting the area, el-Damaty said they found "that there is something like a small passage in the ground that you can see, leading up to the pyramids ground, reaching an area with a different temperature. What will be behind it?"

news.yahoo.com...

www.linkfast.com.tw...

The scanning of the pyramids project

originally posted by: MysterX
a reply to: theantediluvian

And the Pyramids in China, South America, Indonesia, Middle-East, Cambodia...etc.?

Are they all evolved from Mastabas too?

I believe there are a few main reasons why people have a hard time NOT believing the notion that all pyramid building has a common origin with some lost civilization possessing advanced technology (or AA).

1. The first is one of semantics. The word pyramid is used to denote structures which are built in variety of ways from a range of materials and for purposes that are sometimes similar and other times not. The only commonality across all pyramids is the that they're structures that have (generally) sloping sides and (generally) come to a point.

2. Pyramids generally aren't constructed today except as an homage to ancient civilizations. This makes them stand out compared to the shapes of other structures.

3. Exposure to a large amount of baseless speculation and fantasy reinforcing the above.

What people should keep in mind is that everything evolves and for any type of evolution, there will be factors that are universal (such as gravity) and others that are case-specific (level of engineering, availability of materials).

Height is generally good for a lot of reasons. Elevated positions offer a better vantage point, advantage in combat, protection from flood waters and a variety of animals. Height also commands attention. There's a reason why a fort on a hill is better, why affluent people in many societies tend to live in homes on hills (and in penthouses in modern times) and Rome is said to have been founded on Palatine Hill. Most civilizations place their gods in the sky or on mountains and so height is also associated with being closer to the realm of the gods.

If the goal is height, building a structure that is wider at the bottom and increasingly narrower with height is a no-brainer and something even a small child stacking blocks could intuit — and isn't that what we're essentially talking about in most cases, stacking blocks? It's also a ubiquitous shape in the natural world from ant hills to mountains. Speaking of which, the most basic structures referred to as pyramids are modified hills. With a bit of free time and rudimentary tools, even the least technologically advanced civilization can build steps going up a hill, maybe level the top and convert it into an earthen pyramid (Monte d'Accoddi in Sardinia, Monk's Mound in Cahokia, Illinois). Terraced hills/mountainsides are a common site in many parts of the world and there's not a considerable difference between a that and many earthen step pyramids.

Thousands of years before there were pyramids, ziggurats or mastabas, there were mounds/tumuli/barrows and cairns and they served the same purposes and they're far more numerous and widespread than the commonly cited pyramidal structures. Egypt isn't the only place where you can view the evolution of pyramid building over time either. Perhaps I'll do some research and put together another thread.