It's time to wake up!

a reply to: daskakik

Our experiences include any sort of experience we have. Both thoughts and feelings. Thoughts and feelings are experiences, they aren't separate from experience.

Direct experience is seeing what is happening in this moment as it is. Thoughts and feelings can be painful post-awakening, but there is no longer an imaginary self identifying with them. So suffering loses momentum until it stops completely. This can take years. In DE you see painful thoughts for what they are. Just impersonal phenomena. This "impersonal phenomena" isn't a belief, it is a direct experience of things.

Please be more specific at what you don't get because I have a feeling this conversation isn't heading in a mutually beneficial way. I believe I've been clear enough with what I've been stating.

DE isn't about denying anything. I'm not sure what you meant by the sticks and stones part. You haven't given any good counter arguments but rather your just confused about what I'm saying.

Cogito ergo sum. That's all I really know. That you exist is an assumption on my part because the fact is, I am the center of the Universe--literally. That is the ultimate egotistical statement, but I don't mean it in the "I am better and more important than you" context. I mean it literally. There is something about my consciousness that insists the Universe is centered somewhere behind my eyes, though that itself may be an illusion. But the real point is that you may be a figment of my imagination. I created you.

originally posted by: Andy1144
Our experiences include any sort of experience we have. Both thoughts and feelings. Thoughts and feelings are experiences, they aren't separate from experience.

You do this a lot. I never said they were. I said that there is more to experiences than just thoughts and feelings.

Direct experience is seeing what is happening in this moment as it is. Thoughts and feelings can be painful post-awakening, but there is no longer an imaginary self identifying with them. So suffering loses momentum until it stops completely. This can take years. In DE you see painful thoughts for what they are. Just impersonal phenomena. This "impersonal phenomena" isn't a belief, it is a direct experience of things.

Ever read about rape victims who say that their experience was as if they were someone else watching it happen?

Sounds a lot like what you are describing.

Please be more specific at what you don't get because I have a feeling this conversation isn't heading in a mutually beneficial way. I believe I've been clear enough with what I've been stating.

You're clear enough but I just don't buy it. And it isn't because I don't understand or I lack experience or open mindedness.

DE isn't about denying anything. I'm not sure what you meant by the sticks and stones part.

If you look at it objectively it does seem that way.

a reply to: daskakik

I am not understanding your points much.

" I said that there is more to experiences than just thoughts and feelings. "

And I stated that experiences include any feeling or experience. So even that which isn't a thought or feeling (whatever that would be). So in other words anything that is an experience.

I am not telling you to buy into anything. I am saying look into your direct experience and actually experience what is happening for yourself. This is as anti-dogmatic as you can get. You do lack understanding for this subject.

originally posted by: Andy1144
" I said that there is more to experiences than just thoughts and feelings. "

And I stated that experiences include any feeling or experience. So even that which isn't a thought or feeling (whatever that would be). So in other words anything that is an experience.

Really?

You don't understand that I am agreeing that thoughts and feeling are parts of experiences but that you are focusing on them to the exclusion of the other things that also make up experiences?

I am not telling you to buy into anything. I am saying look into your direct experience and actually experience what is happening for yourself. This is as anti-dogmatic as you can get. You do lack understanding for this subject.

Just because I can see the flaw in your theory doesn't mean that I lack understanding. That is just an easy defense on your part.

a reply to: daskakik

"you are focusing on them to the exclusion of the other things that also make up experiences? "
I never exluded anything. I said anything that happens in experience. Anything means no exclusion. Why are we still stuck on this?

Too bad DE isn't a theory. There is nothing to disprove about this. I understand the words can make it seem like I am trying to defend and rationalize my beliefs, but there is no good in that. Out with blind faith.

You mentioned "flaw". How can DE be flawed when it isn't based on beliefs? And you need to be more specific when you see something that lacks logic.
What your doing is seeing my words from your flawed understanding and then saying it is wrong.


When I ask you to find my flaws you simply answer with what you think I mean and call that wrong. When really it's just you not understanding what I mean.

originally posted by: Andy1144
"you are focusing on them to the exclusion of the other things that also make up experiences? "
I never exluded anything. I said anything that happens in experience. Anything means no exclusion. Why are we still stuck on this?

Because DE really only addresses thoughts and feelings. I steal your car and you DE the situation and ...

Too bad DE isn't a theory. There is nothing to disprove about this. I understand the words can make it seem like I am trying to defend and rationalize my beliefs, but there is no good in that. Out with blind faith.

Meh.

You mentioned "flaw". How can DE be flawed when it isn't based on beliefs? And you need to be more specific when you see something that lacks logic.
What your doing is seeing my words from your flawed understanding and then saying it is wrong.

Things don't need to be based on beliefs to be flawed.

I have already pointed out that DE seems a lot like emotional detachment. That was a consious and knowledgeable connection and not some emotional kneejerk reaction from my flawed understanding.

"Because DE really only addresses thoughts and feelings. I steal your car and you DE the situation and ... "
You assume it only deals with that. DE deals with every aspect of experience.

And also when someone it stealing your car, aren't you experiencing thoughts and feelings only? What else can you experience that is not a thought or feeling?

You think DE deals with emotional detachment but it doesn't. It only seems that way to you because you have a lack of knowledge in the subject.
DE means not denying anything. Not going into some detached hypnotic trans when you are confronted with negative emotions. It means embracing them fully because past and future doesn't exist. There is only hear and now. This doesn't mean you can't plan for the future, but you realize that the future doesn't exist now as anything. It is just a thought.
Again, your just throwing things that sound true to you with your limited logic. You don't understand what I am saying because you lack understanding in this field.
This is something I have demonstrated through telling why your wrong with good reasons. All you've done is throw me what you think I mean and call my words flawed.

Actually I don't think it's guidence we lack.... if anything it's less guidence, less being told what to do, more looking inwards and coming to understand that we in fact already DO KNOW what we need to do in a given situation.

In fact Watts mentions this several times in his lectures; how westernes came to the east because they thought they could be taught by the guru and monks how to be infused with the light, how to control and obtain power.
They left disappointed, because there's nothing to be taught, nothing to be found, and the gurus themselves said as much.

The media, the politicians are maintaining the idea and train of thought that we need to evolve to somewhere higher... learn more, faster, better. They keep positioning us against other nations: "look how good they are at reading!" "Look how happy they are... more happy!" Comparison after comparison, just like religion keeps telling us that it's dangerous not to do good because you end up in hell, but if you follow us we'll teach you how to do good.

You

Are

Already

What

You

Seek

Love is not taught, it's is our nature.
Peace is not won, it is taken from us.
Freedom is not a priveledge, it's a natural state of any being.

The way the universe works is through balance. There's always an action and a reaction.
But the contrast between the action and reaction does not have to be very large, although today that contrast is indeed very large if we look at economics.

If we imagine the number 1 being the poor people and the number 20 being the rich people the middle ground is at 10.
This means it can swing out quite a lot...
If instead the poor are 1 and the rich are 5, then the middleground would be at 2.5 and with a lot less swings. But the balance would be maintained and less people would suffer needlessly.

Which brings me to what will happen if the contrast becomes too big between poor and rich.

It would be completely natural that those at the bottom would try to kill those at the top, because you can only stretch out any society so much before it snaps and collapses on itself.
If we continue down the road of believing it's ok to berich ourselves at the cost of others, we will see blood be shed.

originally posted by: Andy1144
You assume it only deals with that. DE deals with every aspect of experience.

And also when someone it stealing your car, aren't you experiencing thoughts and feelings only? What else can you experience that is not a thought or feeling?

Not only thoughts and feelings. That is the point. The physical experience is also there. Having to take the bus or walk is part of the experience from then until the next change.

DE isn't going to change reality, it just changes your point of view, that is the exact same thing as emotional detachment.

You think DE deals with emotional detachment but it doesn't. It only seems that way to you because you have a lack of knowledge in the subject.

Went for pages with someone telling me that I lacked knowledge on a subject only to have them accept what I had been saying when someone else put it in different words.

No, I know exactly what you are talking about.

This is something I have demonstrated through telling why your wrong with good reasons. All you've done is throw me what you think I mean and call my words flawed.

You have not demonstrated anything.

a reply to: daskakik

Physical experience is a sensation. Love is a sensation. I hate you is a thought and sensation. Our whole experiences are comprised of thoughts and sensations/feelings in this sense.

DE doesn't change reality, but it makes you see reality as it is. DE doesnt mean dont think, dont solve problems and do nothing. It means look at what is happening now. This is not detachment because you are not denying anything.
Detachment would be numbing yourself to something through thought. But DE means experiencing your feelings full throttle.

originally posted by: Andy1144
Physical experience is a sensation. Love is a sensation. I hate you is a thought and sensation. Our whole experiences are comprised of thoughts and sensations/feelings in this sense.

More word gymnastics.

Sorry, but, materialism is what it is.

DE doesn't change reality

Thank you, that was all I was saying.

Everything else is extrapolated to fit the theory.

a reply to: daskakik

Materialism? I dont know what you mean here.

And I don't know what you mean by the other part either.

a reply to: Andy1144
I lacked insight...but this is over now.

it is like this.

imagine earth. Before all life begin growing and living it was just a dirty ball in the middle of the nowhere. Then suddenly somehow life happens. This life developed in ways we cannot even imagine. Into all the various animals, plants, viruses, bacteria ... amazing all this from just one form of dirt- earth!

This is quick description of the macro universe from earth prospective. Now as above so bellow. This is universal truth or axiom.

The micro universe in the most pure form or what we call dream stuff, emptiness, conciousness, nothingness. OR I would describe all pervading intelligent god, life, sat chit ananda, Brahma, Tao... This is from what we have manifested. we can imagine this was at the start just like earth from the macro universe. Only difference being that this is not a thing. It is without any attributes and is totally still and empty by nature. Nothing can stick to it. But it is the original cause and all is happening because of that and there is nothing outside of that. It is not alive and not dead, It is not non existence or existence. It is nothing which we can describe with our words or even imagine!

That is why when we are not identifying with anything or any thought, then DE is just our most natural nature when you recognize it. This is a direct insight into our original form of the formless. Here are no things or thoughts. Here is just awareness and everything is in it.

originally posted by: Andy1144
Materialism? I dont know what you mean here.

Interesting

And I don't know what you mean by the other part either.

DE doesn't change anything so we are back to my original question what difference does it make if you see the illusion of self or not?

The only "advantage" is that reality is better than illusion although really nothing changes so you can't even establish which is which.

a reply to: UniFinity

So then explore DE and stop giving intellectual understandings. Anyone asleep can even right books about what you've said and they are still as asleep as the pope.
It wont mean muel crap if you dont look into DE and find the illusion of self once and for all. Your still repeating your intellectual understandings over and over.

a reply to: daskakik

DE doesnt change reality yet it changed your point of view to SEE reality as it is. It is a paradox because it changes your point of view but only changes it to the point in which you look at reality as it is.

On one level, nothing changes because there is no self anyway.
On another, everything changed because the identification with an imaginary unicorn isn't there anymore.

a reply to: Andy1144

But there is nothing to explore about DE, how could there be? You cannot see the eye which is looking.

originally posted by: Andy1144
On one level, nothing changes because there is no self anyway.
On another, everything changed because the identification with an imaginary unicorn isn't there anymore.

But there is no difference and you have not shown that identifying with an imaginary unicorn is any better or worse than anything else.

a reply to: daskakik

Yes I have. Identiying with it means a sense of ownership of negative thoughts and feelings.
Not identiying with it means you wont. Which is better. Simple.