High school suspends coach for praying at games and Satanists make an appearance

a reply to: ketsuko

Yes, he is. It's not like saying that any government employee is giving anything up at all.

Shame on you for intentionally misrepesenting the situation.

The First Amendment as read in 2015 or in 1791 says the same thing: government doesn't establish religion AND government doesn't keep anyone from worshipping.

In order to do both simultaneously as is required: government stays out of religion COMPLETELY.

As usual, you go to the absurd in your attempts to rephrase the issue.

Are wearing beards unique to Islam or Sikhism? No? Then there's no issue.

Is the Muslim or Sikh telling students that god wants them to wear a beard or a turban? Issue.

Again with the rephrasing ... I didn't say anything even simlar to "if anyone does anythign that even looks religious."

You're treading ever closer from misrepresentation toward outright lying, Kets.

I didn't say that government should stay out of religion; the Constitution did.

The absence of a thing is not that thing. The absence of religion is not a religion and it's certainly not "spiritual."

You want your religion to have a special place, and worshippers to have special rights, and you'll say anything to try to get it.

Thank random chance for the US Constitution that is stopping zealots like you from subjecting the rest of us to your faith.

a reply to: Gryphon66

So in other words, the only people fit to work for government are atheists?

If a coach cannot pray on his own, then government has made a law respecting his free exercise. It should not at all matter when or where he prays. Similarly, the student athletes are also representatives of their school, they should not be allowed to pray either. After all, they are then school representatives, government representatives endorsing religion, no matter what religion they are praying to. This is especially true when you start talking about collegiate level athletes.

So they should be stopped and then you are prohibiting THEIR free exercise.

What part of absence of religion is not freedom OF religion but freedom FROM do you not understand? And I think the word in the COTUS is freedom OF.

a reply to: Gryphon66
I've said this before, but I'll say it again. If this coach were a Wiccan or a Satanist, would the same people be supporting him? The answer is simple. No they wouldn't. The proverbial dung would hit the fan. This is the double standard that plays out over and over and over. It's freedom of religion as long as it's a Christian. It's time to break out the stakes and holy water if it isn't.

a reply to: Klassified

Maybe, maybe not. All he was doing was taking a knee to bow. I'm not up on how Satanists and Wiccans pray, but is it outside the realm of possibility that they can take some prayer/blessing whatever their analogous practice is in the same manner? Not every player who takes a knee these days is praying to Jesus, there are an increasing number who are praying to Allah.

a reply to: ketsuko

Look at any one of your posts and count the number of times you say "so in other words" ... this is your schtick, you can't argue the facts so you try to rephrase them into something absurd.

No, I didn't say anything faintly resembling that "only atheists can work in government." Shame on you for lying.

The coach was not praying "on his own." He was praying, while leading the team and representing the student body, on the football field of the school, after a football game, in public. I seem to remember Jesus saying that those who make a big point of praying in public already have their own reward ... but, that's immaterial to the question at hand.

Student athletes are not government representatives. No one anywhere has tried to keep any kid from praying. Shame on you for lying.

You know very well that students are not teachers, nor coaches, nor principals, nor any other school offical.

I'm not doing anything. The Constitution is. The Constitution prohibits any government entity from being in the religion business.

I understand the situation perfectly. Can you quote anything from the Constitution that says that freedom of religion is not also freedom from religion? Please do.

Here's the relevant part of the First Amendment AGAIN so that you can refresh your memory:

Congress shall make no law respecting an establishment of religion, or prohibiting the free exercise thereof

Government doesn't establish religion; government doesn't keep anyone from freely exercising their religion.

The government stays out of religion.

Why do you want to use the power of the state force your religion on others? Statist.

originally posted by: ketsuko
a reply to: Klassified

Maybe, maybe not. All he was doing was taking a knee to bow. I'm not up on how Satanists and Wiccans pray, but is it outside the realm of possibility that they can take some prayer/blessing whatever their analogous practice is in the same manner? Not every player who takes a knee these days is praying to Jesus, there are an increasing number who are praying to Allah.

Can you demonstrate where the kids are kept from praying? Since that's the lie you keep trying to promote?

Wasn't the nativity scene on the white house lawn replaced with a menorah a few years back? You can drape yourself in whatever flag you choose, you will still always live beside your neighbor.

a reply to: Klassified

The Satanists who tried to pray as well at the football game were attacked and prevented from doing so by the other attendees at the game.

Apparently, as you say, some folks only want freedom of religion for their religion, and none other, which is exactly why the restriction of government from religion was the first thing written in the First Amendment in the Bill of Rights.

originally posted by: Gryphon66

originally posted by: ketsuko
a reply to: Klassified

Maybe, maybe not. All he was doing was taking a knee to bow. I'm not up on how Satanists and Wiccans pray, but is it outside the realm of possibility that they can take some prayer/blessing whatever their analogous practice is in the same manner? Not every player who takes a knee these days is praying to Jesus, there are an increasing number who are praying to Allah.

Can you demonstrate where the kids are kept from praying? Since that's the lie you keep trying to promote?

My point is that the coach has been praying on his own after games since 2008. Sometimes, kids pray with him, sometimes they don't. He does not make any big deal out of it. He goes on his own. Occasionally, kids notice and join him. He does not say, "I am going to go pray. Join me if you want." He is exactly like any athlete who prays before or after a game on his or her own because that's what they do. Sometimes, there is one. Sometimes, there are others. They usually pray in a group when they do it, but not because they are praying together in a group sense just because that's where they all take a knee. No one leads the prayer.

I know because I used to be one in my own athletic days. You prayed. They prayed. We all said our own personal whatevers. Not all of us were Christian. Not all of us were even praying. There is even a quote that one of the kids who went to take a knee was simply meditating because he enjoyed the time to center his mind.

BUT, the point is that he was praying as himself, not as a coach, not as a representative, not as an employee. Likely it was something that started in his own playing days. It's a personal practice and expression. He has the freedom to exercise those just like the players do, and if he is counted as a representative of the school in that capacity, then so are the players. They should all be forced to stop.

I also find this especially hilarious considering apparently simply seeing an adult take a knee and bow his head will instantly convert these poor children who are so impressionable. This in a day and age when teachers cannot get similar children to put away their cell phones so we wind up with police brutality in the classroom.

Kids are quite capable of saying, "No." when it suits them.

a reply to: ketsuko

The coach is not just "praying on his own."

My point is that he is praying while working as a school official, in public, on school property, while leading students in a school-sponsored activity.

Are you kidding with "not making a big deal about it"? You keep repeating ad nauseam the "take a knee" phrase made so popular by Tebow (another grandstanding "Christian"). It's performance intended to draw attention and you know it.

There is no commandment in the Bible to "take a knee" while praying. Please.

You do not know what he has said or what he says. You are pretending to knowledge that you don't have. You don't know the details of how the prayers happen, or anything else. Have you been to this school? Have you been on the field while it is happening? Are you assuming you know something and presenting it as the truth? Shame on you again.

He is not "exactly like any student athlete" in any way. He is an authority figure, leading a student activity, employed by the school to do so, on school property at a school-sponsored event. You can try to wiggle anyway you want to but those are the facts and the Constitution wisely prohibits any government from any involvement in religion in the US.

He was praying openly while he was working, on the football field where he was doing his work, while leading students in the activity which comprises his work, in front of the student body he is representing as their football coach.

I'm sorry you want to keep the kids from praying just because you don't like what the Constitution says Ketsuko.

Shame on you.

originally posted by: ketsuko
I also find this especially hilarious considering apparently simply seeing an adult take a knee and bow his head will instantly convert these poor children who are so impressionable. This in a day and age when teachers cannot get similar children to put away their cell phones so we wind up with police brutality in the classroom.

Kids are quite capable of saying, "No." when it suits them.

I'm sorry you find abiding by our laws and traditions a point of ridicule.

No one has said that watching someone prostrate themselves is an act of conversion. Again with the blatant misrepresentation.

Oh, and you managed to work in the implication that when a kid gets beat up by a cop it was their own fault because of their cell phone.

You're pure class, you are.

I'm sure you'd like to have the cops at the football game praying and standing by to make sure everyone else was properly "respectful" as well, wouldn't you?

originally posted by: slednecktx
a reply to: Klassified

Separation of church and state was written by Thomas Jefferson to keep the state out of our religious beliefs., not the other way around. Read Jeffersons ,Wall of Separation Letter.

Are you sure you read it and weren't just told it means something it doesn't? Because it means keeping religion out of the state as well as protecting religion from the state. The wall of separation protects both but in this letter, President Jefferson was writing to a Church to explain why he would not make national religious holidays.

Thomas Jefferson wrote a letter to the Danbury Baptist Association in 1802 to answer a letter from them, asking why he would not proclaim national days of fasting and thanksiving, as had been done by Washington and Adams before him. The letter contains the phrase "wall of separation between church and state," which lead to the short-hand for the Establishment Clause that we use today: "Separation of church and state."

The letter was the subject of intense scrutiny by Jefferson, and he consulted a couple of New England politicians to assure that his words would not offend while still conveying his message: it was not the place of the Congress or the Executive to do anything that might be misconstrued as the establishment of religion.

Note: The bracketed section in the second paragraph had been blocked off for deletion, though it was not actually deleted in his draft of the letter. It is included here for completeness. Reflecting upon Jefferson's knowledge that his letter was far from a mere personal correspondence, he deleted the block, he says in the margin, to avoid offending members of his party in the eastern states.

Constitution.org

I honestly don't understand why we continue to argue about what happened 200+ years ago.

Separation of church and state has evolved through the courts until we have what we have today.

TODAY is what matters.

TODAY a teacher/faculty member, in that capacity/location, can not share their personal religious belief (whatever it is) with a student.

originally posted by: Klassified
a reply to: Sremmos80

Can't help but wonder if the parents interviewed would feel the same if it what was a different religions prayer.

Exactly. What would happen if the coach were a Wiccan, and prayed to the goddess at the end of games with his students? How well would that go over? But we've been conditioned that it's ok, because it's Christian. Not any more.

My guess is anyone who expressed a problem with it would be shouted down as bigots.

Lets go back to the Satanists.

First off they were invited by some students and faculty.

(Christian) Students swarmed the fence where the Satanists stood outside. The group climbed the fence, shook it, held up crosses, threw liquid, and chanted “Jesus.” Some yelled at the Satanists to go away.

A few of the half-dozen students and teachers who invited the Satanists to attend the game in the spirit of free expression were allowed outside the fence, where they spoke with members of the atheist and agnostic group and thanked them for coming.

Temple spokeswoman Lilith Starr said the group was invited to protest Kennedy’s ritual of kneeling on the 50-yard line after games and praying. “We want equality for everyone,” she said. “If one group is allowed to pray, everyone should be.”

Starr said as the group was leaving that their mission was victorious because Kennedy did not pray on the field.

www.seattletimes.com...

Lilith Starr:

We are acting on behalf of a student there whose beliefs align with ours, and who would like to see their beliefs represented on the field alongside Christianity. If the school chooses to tacitly approve the coach’s prayers by failing to stop or discipline him, they are opening up the football field as an open religious forum, and by federal law they must ensure that all religions have equal access to that forum, including Satanism. We will be on hand with Satanic clergy at the football game, ready to perform the Invocation on the field if approved. If the school allows Kennedy to continue but denies our request, we would like to know the rationale behind the denial. If the school district prevents Kennedy from praying publicly or disciplines or discharges him accordingly, we will withdraw our Invocation request. www.patheos.com... ch/

a reply to: Annee

(Christian) Students swarmed the fence where the Satanists stood outside. The group climbed the fence, shook it, held up crosses, threw liquid, and chanted “Jesus.” Some yelled at the Satanists to go away.

So much for "love thy neighbor."

So much for religious freedom.

originally posted by: Gryphon66
a reply to: Annee

(Christian) Students swarmed the fence where the Satanists stood outside. The group climbed the fence, shook it, held up crosses, threw liquid, and chanted “Jesus.” Some yelled at the Satanists to go away.

So much for "love thy neighbor."

So much for religious freedom.

Guess that answers the question I've asked repeatedly in this thread, doesn't it?