The Decline of Ufology: Decades of Fraud, Frustration and Failure?

originally posted by: Annee

originally posted by: Dr X

Look up at night, a lot. Know the difference between planes, satellites, planets and orbs that move really fast and not in straight lines!

I saw mine in broad daylight, about 4:30 in the afternoon.

It glowed, as if self illuminated - - in a yellow/white color. Cigar/saucer shape. Could not actually see structure because of the glow.

It seemed to travel a ways in a horizontal half circle - - then returned to original spot. Sat there for a few minutes, then went straight up until I could no longer see it.

Made no noise that I could hear.

Can I prove it? NO.

you looked at the sun to long like they did at fatima.

a reply to: Jonjonj

What about those witnesses who report anomalous objects, have evidence or corroboration, and simply want an explanation through investigation by some organisation that is not subject to bias and ridicule, what onus is on those witnesses? Are they claiming an alien explanation?

I still think you are misunderstanding Scientific Burden of Proof.

scienceornot.net...

If witnesses report anomalous objects etc. then who should conduct the investigation? The police, NASA, the military? The USAF investigated Roswell and said it was Mogul balloons. That wasn't good enough for those who believe there was a real crash landing by aliens. Nothing ever will be until the USAF confirm aliens did crash. But what if there really wasn't a crash?


There have been serious studies of UFOs by governments and autonomous organizations. However because none of them have concluded that any UFO was an alien spacecraft then people, who believe they are alien spacecraft, shift to conspiracy theories.

We can't prove the governments of this world aren't hiding the truth. There is in fact some documented proof of a cover-up in the 1950s. But that only takes you to the point where you can say the government didn't want us to know that they didn't know what these UFOs represented and didn't want to encourage reports. There is no proof we were faced with alien visitation.

There are a few scientists investigating the Hessdalen Lights. These strange lights feature a lot of the aspects reported in UFO cases.



Now no one is claiming this is all caused by aliens. But we may eventually get an answer which explains other UFO cases as well. Surely an organisation like MUFON could organise something similar?

double post

originally posted by: HorusChrist
do you guys think the recent documentary mirage men debunked all the alien stuff?

I don't think so. Its a very good documentary though. But we should be more concerned with the all the unethical scientists ruining UFOlogy by not speaking about the truth of UFOs that we already know are alien spaceships. May every scientist that doesn't confirm this be damned to hell!

Just had to get that off my chest.

originally posted by: Peeple
a reply to: mirageman

According to the National Geographic survey 77% believe in aliens.
I saw two very fast lights chasing eachother as i spent a night on a mountain close to the border to austria. With a friend. Both had no explanation.

I won't bother to answer your Jack the Ripper and dinosaur comment, too non sense-ish & arrogant-sounding.

So the majority believes they are real, vs. You... Proof they aren't and we'll consent to your opinion.

I made those ludicrous suggestions because I needed to highlight that expecting others to prove something that is unproven in itself is not how Scientific burden of proof works.

Now the 77% who believe in aliens applies to America. Only 51% believe in aliens (which is more than believe in God) across the pond. I actually happen to believe that there are aliens.

But I also understand that at the moment I can't prove it. As for your sighting. Well it could have been alien spacecraft but it also might not have been. But if we prove just one case was alien then everything changes.

originally posted by: combatmaster
a reply to: mirageman

mirageman,

your threads are most impressive, however, what do you believe in regards to the big black triangles that many have seen up close and personal but no evidence to show for it.....

what do you believe that this may be? ok i get its not aliens, which is logical to say the least.... but black tech maybe??

I haven't really looked into the Black triangle phenomenon in any detail so I think it would be wrong of me to do anything than speculate. I wouldn't actually rule out aliens but I have not seen the evidence that backs it up.

Probably when the Stealth Fighter was being developed this would account for a number of black triangle sightings. Who knows what's being tested now?

_BoneZ_ also did a good thread explaining the Phoenix Lights sightings of a huge black triangle.

www.abovetopsecret.com...

originally posted by: Jonjonj
They present their evidence...AND NOBODY GIVES TWO *****! No serious study is ever made at all.

The evidence has to be such that it can be studied, of course. Unless there is some kind of objective evidence that links into a witness story, what exactly can be studied? Like in the case of "alien" abductions, without some kind of hard evidence to back it up, a researcher would essentially be doing dream/sleep studies with EEGs and video cameras. That has been tried -- not in every instance, but in many -- and nothing is revealed.

So, yes. If a person has an experience -- and wants somebody else to believe them -- it's up to them to provide the proof as to why they should be believed or at least investigated. I really don't care f somebody is abducted by aliens, or sees a flying saucer, or whatever.

That's why I like to say that the burden of proof is on the person who cares the most.

originally posted by: mirageman
But if we prove just one case was alien then everything changes.

Well, it would add "aliens" to the list of possible explanations for any particular sighting, but it wouldn't necessarily work as an explanation for all UFOs. That would still have to be determined on an individual basis.

It's like if we discovered a planet with intelligent ET life on it. Some people would be thrilled and declare that the universe is slopping over with intelligent aliens, although logically it would only mean that there are only two known planets with alien life, and any others remain completely hypothetical. Could be that there are only two in the entire universe.

originally posted by: mirageman

originally posted by: combatmaster
a reply to: mirageman

mirageman,

your threads are most impressive, however, what do you believe in regards to the big black triangles that many have seen up close and personal but no evidence to show for it.....

what do you believe that this may be? ok i get its not aliens, which is logical to say the least.... but black tech maybe??

I haven't really looked into the Black triangle phenomenon in any detail so I think it would be wrong of me to do anything than speculate. I wouldn't actually rule out aliens but I have not seen the evidence that backs it up.

Probably when the Stealth Fighter was being developed this would account for a number of black triangle sightings. Who knows what's being tested now?

_BoneZ_ also did a good thread explaining the Phoenix Lights sightings of a huge black triangle.

www.abovetopsecret.com...

Mirage you see there you use a term which is wholly incorrect and yet it is used by others time and time again as if it's true. There never was or is now a "Stealth Fighter", the airframe people refer to as the "Stealth Fighter " was a sub mach 1 bomber with an effective operational life that was so short, it really has to be deemed a "failure". To the best of my knowledge a Serbian Radar Lieutenant worked out how to totally negate the "Stealth aspect" of the design, shot one down in short order and that was that. in a similar manner many people and programme makers still pedal the myth about the U2 discovering the Cuban missiles bases, it didn't, it was a bog standard Navy recon airframe that took those iconic photos.

If there's a myth that is constantly pedalled via Ufology , it is the idea of the "technical superiority of the USA" when the evidence shows that's simply not true. it's only in the last decade with the rise of unmanned drones that USA can said to have become in real way shape or form, "leading edge" flight wise. If you're looking for what are in reality, hideously expensive yet pointless vanity projects ala the Blackbird then yes, the USA leads the world, others don;t copy them because they are exactly that , economically pointless and their jobs can be done by other kit for far less money.

Of course it suits the USA's programmes world wide to give the impression they are "so far ahead" and that they might even back engineered alien tech, so they big it up and Is strongly suspect that, they plant false stories etc to make it seem more "credible".

There really isn't a shred of credible evidence to suggest that, the USA's military complex would benefit in any way shape or form by admitting that "They simply don't know what they, UFOs, are". In fact, there's a whole slew of evidence to suggest exactly the opposite. if there's one thing that binds the NATO countries , Russia and Chain etc together it's the constant fear that some "nobody", might just stumble on something that gives a greater insight into what they, UFOs, actually are.

I would go so far as to suggest that, there's a credible case to be made that whatever crashed at Roswell in 1947 was r taken back and the USA could do nothing about it at all. I say that given that, Speilberg seems to be one of the organs through which information is drip fed into the public conciousness and look how he went from, friendly ETs to enigmatic IDEs in 35 years including, the ability to create interactive illusions?

The replies to the topic provide insight into the new generation of ATS readers.

Narcissism is increasing.

Spirituality and belief in a creator is decreasing.

Technology is increasing.

Technology (from Greek τέχνη, techne, "art, skill, cunning of hand"; and -λογία, -logia) is the collection of techniques, skills, methods and processes used in the production of goods or services or in the accomplishment of objectives, such as scientific investigation. (Wiki)

Technology is not science.

It uses science and science uses technology.

Science:
"The intellectual and practical activity encompassing the systematic study of the structure and behavior of the physical and natural world through observation and experiment."

How can the possibility of non-human "life" - a human concept - be excluded prior to full observation and experiment.

The concept of simple blood pressure wasn`t developed until recently when scientists placed mercury filled glass tubes into animal arteries and used pressure laws. They needed technology and scientific laws develop the concept.

And what do "Ufologists" have:
unusual photos and now videos
eye-witnesses
censored press releases from governments who were elected by people

Imagine if the government said wow what a great report - we are going to release all air traffic control data and army/navy/airforce personnel to be interviewed by the press immediately as we are very curious about these sightings?

The younger ATS members seem to need video evidence of events which often last a few seconds when no iphone is at hand. Such is their dependency on technology.

At present, I find the concept of ubi sunt sobering as a starting point when considering that humans are the only form of "life".

a reply to: mirageman

Look, we can run around all our lives arguing but the fact is that the UFO phenomena is worthy of detailed study by unbiased researchers and there is a concerted effort on the part of governments and the media, through disregard and ridicule, so that this doesn't happen.
The rest is just semantics and agenda push.

originally posted by: AceWombat04....
Despite this, and despite there at the time being continuing investigations and studies of the phenomenon by various other bodies and agencies, near the end of the Truman administration the CIA determined that continuing public interest in and reporting of UFOs constituted a potential national security threat - ostensibly due to possible mass hysteria and the flooding of communications and intel channels. Thus the CIA established a cursory, four day review of the available evidence by prominent scientists with ties to the military establishment (the Robertson panel,) after which the NSA mandated that unexplained cases like those described in the above mentioned reports and memos should not be discussed with the public and/or press, and perhaps most tellingly, that ONLY those cases which could be explained as mundane or the result of hoaxes and psychological issues should be publicized. In various forms, that policy has been in effect ever since, despite periods of renewed (or at least feigned) interest in being more forthcoming with the public. (For a time, it was even a crime punishable by imprisonment or fine to release UFO sighting data to the public and press, despite the study and investigation thereof continuing in earnest behind closed doors.)...
(Continued...)

Good example of high quality graf in a very high quality discussion....

Worth pointing out here the scientific secretary of the Robertson Panel, Fred Durant, died only a few days ago, aged 98. in Raleigh, North Carolina. He was a mentor of mine in DC in the early 1970s and a personal friend for decades later.

a reply to: JimOberg

Jim out of interest, do you think there's any legs in the theory I've seen mooted by a few old hands from the USA that, had the money from the U2 project been invested in the Space programme instead, that the USA might well have beaten the Russkis into space?

originally posted by: FireMoon
a reply to: JimOberg

Jim out of interest, do you think there's any legs in the theory I've seen mooted by a few old hands from the USA that, had the money from the U2 project been invested in the Space programme instead, that the USA might well have beaten the Russkis into space?

No, the U2 was critical for assessing Soviet deployment of strike weapons, it never competed with Vanguard or Jupiter-C -- and getting an 'Explorer-class' satellite into orbit a year earlier on a Redstone [Jupiter-C] would have been cheap, but a policy decision to make the effort part of the International Geophysical Year [not as a result of a military weapons program] prevented that. Money wasn't the issue.

Steering back to my previous post, Durant was a critical player in spaceflight development in those critical years. The Robertson Panel was a short-lived sideline for him.

UFOlogy is in decline because of several factors:

1. Too much ridicule associated with the subject.

2. Too much debunking attempts even when the photograph/video is actually genuine.

3. A lot of humans are still not physically/emotionally/mentally ready for ET contact.

originally posted by: ZetaRediculian

originally posted by: HorusChrist
do you guys think the recent documentary mirage men debunked all the alien stuff?

I don't think so. Its a very good documentary though. But we should be more concerned with the all the unethical scientists ruining UFOlogy by not speaking about the truth of UFOs that we already know are alien spaceships. May every scientist that doesn't confirm this be damned to hell!

Just had to get that off my chest.

maybe there are bad scientists but not even one good one to leak some proof? they often say in conspiracy theories wouldn't someone leak it? well in 2 examples jfk and 9/11 some folks have leaked like e howard hunt and sibel Edmonds. And they didn't get debunked either.

originally posted by: dr treg
The replies to the topic provide insight into the new generation of ATS readers.

Narcissism is increasing.

Spirituality and belief in a creator is decreasing.

Technology is increasing.

Technology (from Greek τέχνη, techne, "art, skill, cunning of hand"; and -λογία, -logia) is the collection of techniques, skills, methods and processes used in the production of goods or services or in the accomplishment of objectives, such as scientific investigation. (Wiki)

Technology is not science.

It uses science and science uses technology.

Science:
"The intellectual and practical activity encompassing the systematic study of the structure and behavior of the physical and natural world through observation and experiment."

How can the possibility of non-human "life" - a human concept - be excluded prior to full observation and experiment.

The concept of simple blood pressure wasn`t developed until recently when scientists placed mercury filled glass tubes into animal arteries and used pressure laws. They needed technology and scientific laws develop the concept.

And what do "Ufologists" have:
unusual photos and now videos
eye-witnesses
censored press releases from governments who were elected by people

Imagine if the government said wow what a great report - we are going to release all air traffic control data and army/navy/airforce personnel to be interviewed by the press immediately as we are very curious about these sightings?

The younger ATS members seem to need video evidence of events which often last a few seconds when no iphone is at hand. Such is their dependency on technology.

At present, I find the concept of ubi sunt sobering as a starting point when considering that humans are the only form of "life".

spiritualism is not declining tho it is being replaced with newer forms, people worship technology. so more have faith in aliens than god but in both cases it's faith since there is no hard evidence of such, in both cases, god and aliens, we can predict they do exist because 1. someone or something must have created the universe, sentient or not, we trace it to big bang just don't understand how or why. same with aliens we can predict some must excist since the universe is teaming with planets. No absolute proof tho. In both cases there is also wishful thinking because wouldn't it be depressing if god didn't exist? and we were all alone in the universe . . . how can that be?

a reply to: TeaAndStrumpets

We are all, the entire world, being let down by SCIENCE, not by Ufologists.

Well, I agree that UFOlogy isn't science and understand why you make that distinction. But how is "science" letting down the whole world? I really don't think you understand the problem with investigating UFOs scientifically. Nor do you seem to interested in resolving those problems. Blaming "SCIENCE" and imaginary scientists will not move anything forward.

The first problem is that most of the information we have on UFOs are from subjective accounts. There isn't a whole lot of physical evidence and none of that evidence really amounts to much.

a reply to: Jonjonj

Look, we can run around all our lives arguing but the fact is that the UFO phenomena is worthy of detailed study by unbiased researchers

I think what people don't understand is that research takes time and money. And it really seems like the people most interested in the subject are waiting for "scientists" or some "unbiased researchers" to come along and confirm their bias!

Just become an unbiased researcher.

dupe / delete