The Decline of Ufology: Decades of Fraud, Frustration and Failure?

a reply to: Qspeedyrock
If you understood basic hypnosis you would not put faith in any claims made under it. It's an extremely suggestible borderline-sleep trance state, meaning the hypnotist has the power to make you believe, and even see, things.

All the way back in the 1800s Hippolyte Bernheim proved that you could implant false memories in people using hypnosis:


It doesnt necessitate that 'recovered memories' are certainly falsified, but it absolutely renders them questionable at best.

a reply to: vertedtwylight

...As if an advanced alien species would just leave undeniable, unquestionable, unequivocal proof...

We've left our own stuff all over the Moon, Mars and floating about in (and now beyond) our own solar system. But of course how do you or I know how any alien species would behave. Would they even visit us in person?

I have personally seen a UFO something like 350-400 ft away. Unless you can explain to me what a ,for lack of better term, "white ball of light" that makes no sounds and doesn't move an inch could possibly be??

Well it is a "white ball of light" you can't explain and with only that information if you don't know then how can anyone else explain it? Or are you inferring that what you saw was an alien spacecraft? Which of course it could be but then you would have to explain how you know that.

What about the sightings with thousands of observers of objects doing impossible maneuvers and denying the laws of physics

Which one do you think is the best case for aliens?

Radar detecting objects going thousands of MPH doing right angle turns??

Humans who have had close encounters with these crafts that suffer from radiation poisoning and other ailments?

Radiation levels, much higher than normal, in the soil where these crafts were spotted

Yes there are anomalous radar returns, and evidence of exposure to radiation in cases. Again which do you think are the best cases?

originally posted by: Peeple
a reply to: mirageman

I know what i saw.

Are you replying to a response made to Qspeedyrock (who as yet has not responded) for any particular reason?

Anyway you know what you saw. So what did you see?

Plus unexplained is not disproving aliens, if anything it proves we don't know it wasn't..

This comes back to what has to be pointed out time and time again on here as logical fallacy. It is unexplained and aliens could be the answer. But as aliens visiting Planet Earth is not an established fact then the burden of proof lies with the person claiming it was aliens. It is not up to others to disprove something that hasn't been proven in the first place.

We don't know aliens didn't push a massive asteroid at Earth that killed off the dinosaurs, Jack the Ripper wasn't an alien, aliens didn't shoot JFK or beam up Amelia Earhart either to make her vanish. But making such claims, just because no one can disprove those assertions, would be logical fallacy.

a reply to: mirageman

According to the National Geographic survey 77% believe in aliens.
I saw two very fast lights chasing eachother as i spent a night on a mountain close to the border to austria. With a friend. Both had no explanation.

I won't bother to answer your Jack the Ripper and dinosaur comment, too non sense-ish & arrogant-sounding.

So the majority believes they are real, vs. You... Proof they aren't and we'll consent to your opinion.

originally posted by: draknoir2

originally posted by: fleabit

.. unless you can explain it away with something logical.. and not guesswork, then you haven't proved you case that there is no alien visitation.

That is not the case that needs proving, nor is it provable. This major logical fallacy gets much use here [burden of proof/proving a negative].

Case in point:

originally posted by: Peeple
a reply to: mirageman



So the majority believes they are real, vs. You... Proof they aren't and we'll consent to your opinion.

originally posted by: mirageman

This comes back to what has to be pointed out time and time again on here as logical fallacy. It is unexplained and aliens could be the answer. But as aliens visiting Planet Earth is not an established fact then the burden of proof lies with the person claiming it was aliens. It is not up to others to disprove something that hasn't been proven in the first place.

We don't know aliens didn't push a massive asteroid at Earth that killed off the dinosaurs, Jack the Ripper wasn't an alien, aliens didn't shoot JFK or beam up Amelia Earhart either to make her vanish. But making such claims, just because no one can disprove those assertions, would be logical fallacy.

And this is exactly the point I wanted to make. Debunkers or Skeptics, as they like to be known very often use this argument of logical fallacy in a very dishonest way.
What about those witnesses who report anomalous objects, have evidence or corroboration, and simply want an explanation through investigation by some organisation that is not subject to bias and ridicule, what onus is on those witnesses? Are they claiming an alien explanation?
They present their evidence...AND NOBODY GIVES TWO *****! No serious study is ever made at all. And is this not worthy of study? Is that the point? Then someone should actually say why it is not important, instead of just saying "no national security implications" or whatever.
But they don't, and the reason is because there must already be an answer, but it is not conducive to the status quo to reveal the answers, we do not NEED to know.
And it makes me sick.

Personally, I feel the field of UFOlogy changed when the Roswell story was rediscovered. While a believer, I generally approach a case as a skeptic. After all, all too often, a UFO turns out to be a misidentification. I went in thinking the MOGUL story would emerge as the truth. Boy was I wrong. Simply put, the military's own actions in the case are actually the best evidence against MOGUL. No matter what angle you pursue, the best explanation remains the recovery of an unidentified craft of advanced tech, and subsequent actions rule out that debris as being from another terrestrial nation (simply put, would have been declassified and paraded by now).

Today though, I feel we have to accept that there simply must not be too much UFO activity, and this has a direct relationship to UFOlogy. Think about it, never before, have we all been so well equipped to capture it. We all walk around with cameras in our pockets, 24/7. Back in the 80's, UFOlogists could only dream this would have been the case. Abductees (assuming there are any) could easily snap a pic when inside the ship! But we haven't seen these, or a rise in good clear photos, despite the resolution and zoom capabilities always increasing.

It's interesting that UFO activity in modern times seems to correlate with the amount of widespread global warfare on the planet. Perhaps the reignition of the Cold War will see incidents rise? Not that I'm wishing for it, but likely to be a rise in sightings too.

No doubt, the hoaxers, posers, crackpots, and profiteers continually damage the perception of the field. Nothing we can do there. But, we can keep plugging away. There are always mistakes, and plenty of pieces of the puzzle, you just have to put it together, and throw out the pieces that don't fit.

I think the thread misses the point. It is not Ufology and Ufologists that have failed us; it is science, and scientists. That intermediate burden of proof, the one needed in order to signal that serious scientific study of a phenomenon is possible and is needed, was met decades ago with respect to UFOs. Just read the body of the Condon Report. Or Hynek, or McDonald. There is no rational reason to ridicule the entire subject, yet... here are the same old talking heads of science, doing it over and over again. Tyson, Shostack, Plait, etc., same old cast of entertainers / intellectual sellouts.

It should not be up to Ufologists to do the proving. How can such a fundamental point be glossed over? "Proving" is what scientists do. Popular opinions usually do not change until they say so. Science just needs more scientists with guts and thick skin, genuine researchers who have a higher regard for truth than they do for the career's more pragmatic and short-term payoffs. Plenty of scientists are privately interested in UFOs. Good for them. Those individuals need to do a better job, though, of stepping up and of calling out their peers who speak ignorantly, just as Peter Sturrock did with Lawrence Krauss. Derrick Pitts comes to mind too. Bravo for them. But they are the exception.

We are all, the entire world, being let down by SCIENCE, not by Ufologists. Threads like this can be interesting, and certainly have their place, but they may be assuming too much and missing the more fundamental points.

a reply to: TeaAndStrumpets

Exactly. & what about the COMETA report?

They demonstrate the almost certain physical reality of completely unknown flying objects with remarkable flight performances and noiselessness, apparently operated by intelligent [beings].

I for one will be glad when the UFO road show dies, all the usual suspects money grabbing as much as they can while pedalling recycled nonsense, it makes me laugh the titles Nick Pope uses, lets remember he was an admin clerk at the Ministry of Defence but now he does by the title of the man who was in charge of the UK X-Files, a 'Security Consultant', a UFO expert etc etc etc. The same faces selling snake oil.

Sadly the whole thing has been turned in to a bad joke, constant CG nonsense, TV shows claiming crap that isn't real, its all just a trend till the next thing. The shame is that I believe there actually is something to the UFO issue, there have been things that were impossible to explain and seen by reliable people plus the stories from the ages of chariots coming down from the stars and so on but the constant frauds have simply taken the good case files and dumped them in with the nonsense.

Has every story been a fabrication, have all the military folk that came forward with stories been liars, its possible but surely it ALL can't be rubbish..

I for one don't think so, I just believe its not exactly what we think it is...

a reply to: TeaAndStrumpets

Science just needs more scientists with guts and thick skin, genuine researchers who have a higher regard for truth than they do for the career's more pragmatic and short-term payoffs.

Nah, just need funding and someone willing to invest in something that will, in all probability, not have any return on that investment. Its a tough sell. There aren't really a bunch of guys standing around in white coats called "Scientists" that are too scared to investigate the "truth" of UFOs Maybe in Scooby Doo ...

originally posted by: TeaAndStrumpets
I think the thread misses the point. It is not Ufology and Ufologists that have failed us; it is science, and scientists. That intermediate burden of proof, the one needed in order to signal that serious scientific study of a phenomenon is possible and is needed, was met decades ago with respect to UFOs. Just read the body of the Condon Report. Or Hynek, or McDonald. There is no rational reason to ridicule the entire subject, yet... here are the same old talking heads of science, doing it over and over again. Tyson, Shostack, Plait, etc., same old cast of entertainers / intellectual sellouts.

IMDB the complete cast of Ancient Aliens or any of the dozens of UFO "documentaries".

Same old cast there too.

No doubt that high profile researchers don't seem to even be trying to do a good job and there ahve been several stories about this recently. My best theory about that is what I call a "Recruit a group of crackpots" hypothesis which may have come up decades ago. If so then the CIA may have created the highest profile researchers and given them air time but they made obvious blunders destroying their own credibility.

If so it has had enormous success but there are still plenty o unexplained mysteries that will never go away for those willing to sort through the crap.

originally posted by: draknoir2
IMDB the complete cast of Ancient Aliens or any of the dozens of UFO "documentaries".

Same old cast there too.

Yes, I'm suggesting that perhaps scientists have a responsibility to society that TV show hosts do not. I can't imagine that'd be a controversial statement, but... you never know around here.

originally posted by: TeaAndStrumpets

originally posted by: draknoir2
IMDB the complete cast of Ancient Aliens or any of the dozens of UFO "documentaries".

Same old cast there too.

Yes, I'm suggesting that perhaps scientists have a responsibility to society that TV show hosts do not. I can't imagine that'd be a controversial statement, but... you never know around here.

I'm not talking about "hosts". I'm talking about the standard list of dubiously qualified talking heads whose speculation trumps anything mainstream science has to offer.

Perhaps scientists should adopt Kaku's strategy of playing both sides of the fence.

a reply to: TeaAndStrumpets

Yes, I'm suggesting that perhaps scientists have a responsibility to society that TV show hosts do not.

Scientists have a responsibility to society so they should voluntarily investigate UFOs as being ET? Why do you think "Scientists" have a responsibility to society more so than a TV show host? Aren't some scientists also TV show hosts....like Bill Nye, the science guy? is Bill Nye unethical?

a reply to: mirageman

mirageman,

your threads are most impressive, however, what do you believe in regards to the big black triangles that many have seen up close and personal but no evidence to show for it.....

what do you believe that this may be? ok i get its not aliens, which is logical to say the least.... but black tech maybe??

do you guys think the recent documentary mirage men debunked all the alien stuff?

a reply to: mirageman

Well, I firmly believe that now because of so many similar experiences from other people. Same story for 100's of years, most seem to be intelligently controlled.. So, either they are just ball lightning that only seem to have interest in humans, humans with advanced technology, OR ALIENS. Aliens being something from out of this world, be it from another solar system or another dimension. I can't say which is the most compelling cases, but i'll go ahead and say my personal ufo experiences.

originally posted by: cuckooold

originally posted by: EnPassant

originally posted by: DelMarvel
The biggest, most important factor is that the stimulus for the interesting UFO and encounter reports has left the stage leaving nothing substantial to focus on. With the most intriguing old reports being so
We know have a huge and increasing percentage of the world carrying cell phone cameras/video cameras at all time and yet no convincing images are being produced. (at least none I've seen.)

The Kumburgaz sighting?

Fairly solidly debunked as an ocean liner.
www.abovetopsecret.com...

Apparently the altitude disposes of the cruise ship theory. I have not read all of this but it seems quite detailed-

turkeyufocase.blogspot.ie...

Also, the image illustrating your link is not at all like the rest of the video-

files.abovetopsecret.com...