Creationism SHOULD be taught in school. ( alongside science theories! )

originally posted by: SuperFrog

originally posted by: theMediator
I disagree on that!

It's ok to talk about those beliefs as long as it's specified that they aren't the ones accepted by science. I'm pretty convinced that portraying different views and discussing them is what's the best for the development towards a critical thinking individual.

There is no true knowledge without the knowledge of good and evil.

There is no benefit of learning few more fairy tales and pretend they were true...

Good and evil - product of your religion that supposedly has monopoly on morality...

And don't get me wrong, it is OK to talk about your fairy tale in church or with your friends, but there is no single benefit learning about it if you not gonna also say how great suffering humanity had thanks to the same religion. Oh wait, we do learn about that in history class...

Also that we created many other religions before those that somehow survived (very bloody survival) for all of those years...

As someone who has no use for religion the biggest reason I think it should be taught is for historical purposes. We were at creationism as pretty much the standard view now we are evolution. So kids, where might we be in the future.

Doesn't matter if I believe it, or anyone for that matter. To me it's no different from covering history saying the earth is flat. Shows how throughout history our mindset changes.

Beyond that, we have many people who do believe it. For the same reason we have anything to expose students to different beliefs, cultures, and so on. As I understand it there are multiple religions who believe in it. Not Christian specific. But to me it does have historical value. And honestly there are holes and questions around evolution. They might be having the same conversation about evolution 100 years from now based on new finds. Arguing if it has any place being in a school.

I all for teaching Creationism, but only if we start having the following subjects as well:

- Charms
- Defence Against the Dark Arts
- Muggle Studies
- Potions
- Transfiguration

I'm not religious, but if I had kids in school I'd have no problem with them learning Creationism, so long as they also took Science and understood that they oppose one-another. I would want my kids to be able to think for themselves, and not be just mere pawns who let teachers and books do the thinking for them.

The world needs to learn less fear, hate and intolerance and learn to embrace different views. And yes, Christian individuals and organizations have been guilty of this, but so have scientists. If everything was taught, kids would develop much more open-minded and less fearful outlooks. All this panicking over perspectives, which is well-illustrated in many of the replies here, would come to be 'the whining of old fogies.'

In short: we all need to lighten up.

a reply to: LoneCloudHopper2

Fristly,

it is degradation of science to represent creationism as 'different' view.

It took science long time to establish knowledge based on scientific principles that is testable, produced results we all witness now on daily bases with new discoveries and improved and extended life. Bringing back unscientific method that is supposed to explain something science has already explained well is just confusing for kids and SHOULD never be allowed.

it is almost like teaching kids that 1+1 is 3 just because IT IS different view from rest of science claims... will not help anyone.

Teach kids different hypothesis is all fine, but creationism is not even hypothesis, it is something we know has no origin in science and we actually can follow its evolution through ages.

Speaking of creationism, why only christian mythology, why not teach kids Egyptian creationism claim?? Ahh, yes, because it is kind of rater 'R' or 'MA' because of the way first god spread stars across universe...

Creationism should be part of history, as example of danger of religion and using belief for justify killing of scientist who objected to religion dogma.

originally posted by: SuperFrog
a reply to: LoneCloudHopper2

it is almost like teaching kids that 1+1 is 3 just because IT IS different view from rest of science claims... will not help anyone.

Oh, I love that you bring that up!

When I was a kid I argued exactly that! You see, the whole system of mathematics is based on the theory that 1+1=2. And yes, if you take a 1 and add another 1, it does come to two separate 1's. However, I can prove that isn't the only necessary outcome. I can take two balls of clay and prove that 1+1=1. Or, I can put a male and female cat together and prove 1+1=7. The whole mathematics system is based on an assumption, one particular outlook, like all theories. The problem of pi alone proves that the system isn't perfect.

I remember Geography class in high school. Sometimes the teacher would dim the lights, we'd stop going over names of foreign places or studying geological maps and tell ghost stories. It was fun and stirred the imagination! No one stopped taking Geography seriously. It was just a great change of pace.

The world does not belong to science, spirituality, art, politics, history, business, economics, philosophy, sports or survival. It encompasses many things. School should not be afraid to teach many things, and opposing views, to broaden minds. Kids should not be treated as hopeless idiots who must be directed to think a particular way like little robots. That was what I hated about school, being a thinker and artist. The whole experience bored me to tears (except for rare moments of spontaneity.)

originally posted by: SuperFrog
a reply to: LoneCloudHopper2

Fristly,

it is degradation of science to represent creationism as 'different' view.

It took science long time to establish knowledge based on scientific principles that is testable, produced results we all witness now on daily bases with new discoveries and improved and extended life. Bringing back unscientific method that is supposed to explain something science has already explained well is just confusing for kids and SHOULD never be allowed.

it is almost like teaching kids that 1+1 is 3 just because IT IS different view from rest of science claims... will not help anyone.

Teach kids different hypothesis is all fine, but creationism is not even hypothesis, it is something we know has no origin in science and we actually can follow its evolution through ages.

Speaking of creationism, why only christian mythology, why not teach kids Egyptian creationism claim?? Ahh, yes, because it is kind of rater 'R' or 'MA' because of the way first god spread stars across universe...

Creationism should be part of history, as example of danger of religion and using belief for justify killing of scientist who objected to religion dogma.

As I said above I believe it is a view held by multiple religions beyond Christian religions. I could have sworn its a debate in the Muslim religion and a few others as well. But to be honest I don't have the inclination to look up all the religions it is part of. But we still teach Christopher Columbus discovered America, did bell invent the telephone? ( looking at the Italian ats members). So to argue we only teach facts???? Evolution though has many holes. I am personally waiting for new findings showing both thoughts are wrong.

There's been some interesting views and points on this thread even after I thought things were basically done with. I can agree that our kids should be taught that other positions were once held. I was taught about flat earth theory I'm contrast to what is now more widely accepted, it doesn't hurt, and I would argue that it does help to acknowledge other beliefs, old beliefs and the like just to give a kid a more rounded experience of the world.

But at no time would I imagine creationism being taught right beside scientific theories, with the teacher saying both are equal.

There's still the fact that we teach kids theories with holes in them though, and in history we teach them outright lies. Creationism may not be proven, but when there's lies being taught in some classes, especially history, I think the argument should be to give our kids the facts and not cherry pick what we teach them.

Thank you, everyone who continues this thread. I'll pop in when I have the time.

-deadlyhope

a reply to: deadlyhope

I think that those in favor of creationism in school would loudly object if science teacher in class tells that people once believed in creation story which was wrong because modern science disagree with it. (Something we tell kids with flat earth story)

Again, what is gain from either one? (flat earth of creation)

a reply to: SuperFrog

What if this quote was discussed within a science classroom?

"Your question is the most difficult in the world. It is not a question I can answer simply with yes or no. I am not an Atheist. I do not know if I can define myself as a Pantheist. The problem involved is too vast for our limited minds. May I not reply with a parable? The human mind, no matter how highly trained, cannot grasp the universe. We are in the position of a little child, entering a huge library whose walls are covered to the ceiling with books in many different tongues. The child knows that someone must have written those books. It does not know who or how. It does not understand the languages in which they are written. The child notes a definite plan in the arrangement of the books, a mysterious order, which it does not comprehend, but only dimly suspects. That, it seems to me, is the attitude of the human mind, even the greatest and most cultured, toward God. We see a universe marvelously arranged, obeying certain laws, but we understand the laws only dimly. Our limited minds cannot grasp the mysterious force that sways the constellations. I am fascinated by Spinoza's Pantheism. I admire even more his contributions to modern thought. Spinoza is the greatest of modern philosophers, because he is the first philosopher who deals with the soul and the body as one, not as two separate things"
-Albert Einstein

That's basically my view of it. Most scientists are idiots compared to Einstein, so why not quote him exactly, and teach kids that we are indeed just human and some things aren't completely known. Rather than only throwing theories in their head that may one day be laughed at like flat earth theory.

All good and dandy until you made your post at the bottom...

originally posted by: deadlyhope
a reply to: SuperFrog
That's basically my view of it. Most scientists are idiots compared to Einstein, so why not quote him exactly, and teach kids that we are indeed just human and some things aren't completely known. Rather than only throwing theories in their head that may one day be laughed at like flat earth theory.

We have to go back to square 1, what is scientific theory and what is hypothesis.

A scientific theory is a well-substantiated explanation of some aspect of the natural world that is acquired through the scientific method and repeatedly tested and confirmed through observation and experimentation.

A scientific hypothesis is the initial building block in the scientific method. Many describe it as an “educated guess,” based on prior knowledge and observation. While this is true, the definition can be expanded.

Both of those definition are from google search of terms.

As for Einstein, he made it clear that he did not believe in personal God. He was actually very angry by misuse of his quotes, just like you did here.

originally posted by: SuperFrog

As for Einstein, he made it clear that he did not believe in personal God. He was actually very angry by misuse of his quotes, just like you did here.

Yeah, anyone who tries to butcher Einsteins ACTUAL quote and twist it to look like he meant he believed in a "personal God" is not really worth discussing these topics with - and most certainly must have their notions dismissed immediately.

a reply to: SuperFrog

My post did not say let's use that quote to teach creationism.

I asked what you thought about using that quote in a science classroom, instead.

I know he did not believe in a personal God.

a reply to: Kryties

I didn't say I thought he believed in a personal God. I asked what we thought of using that quote in the classroom - in general - to have kids know what one of the greatest minds ever thought on the creation of universe and a creator.

I didn't say let's use that quote, followed by performing exorcisms and praying over food.

a reply to: SuperFrog

You seem to be afraid that the knowledge of what isn't scientific would impare science...

Maybe your faith in science being the truth isn't strong enough.

a reply to: theMediator

I love this twist, it's what people say to others with belief all the time. They will reply, not truly addressing what you say and mentioning how they have all of the facts. I'd respect a person if they admitted their beliefs are questionable as well, but people of science have this elitist mentality. Science was most definitely created by man. God.. The jury is out whether he's our minds creation, or we are his. Why do we not question science, which we know for a fact is invented and believed in by man alone? To assert assumptions like having the truth, when everything you prescribe to is taught by a few men.. Is as ludicrous as any belief.

I think experiencing things on our own gives us the most insight, intellectually, and spiritually. But people that prescribe to science don't test things for themselves. They only follow what others say.. People pray, meditate, ponder, and go over things all the time within spiritual beliefs, and get confirmation - that they should only apply to themselves, perhaps tell others the steps, but not their own personal answer and assert it as undeniable fact to everyone else.

originally posted by: Reallyfolks
And honestly there are holes and questions around evolution. They might be having the same conversation about evolution 100 years from now based on new finds. Arguing if it has any place being in a school.

I agreed with everything you said up until here. There aren't any holes in evolution. We don't know every single species to ever roam the earth because fossilization is so rare, but the theory is solid and I've never seen anyone point out any holes in it that didn't end up being based on misunderstandings of science. The only debates about evolution today in the scientific community are with minor details like exact transitional time frames for certain unknown intermediary species and lesser known mechanisms.

a reply to: theMediator

Though I do concede that a child's mind is more impressionable, therefore do not encourage teaching anything other than undisputed facts, whole truths, and not just theories in any case. They could be taught how to find the answers on their own.. Google it. Pick up a book. But shouldn't be crammed full of what's ifs and maybes at a young age by a teacher.

You could cover this in one sentence. Some people believe that their god created the Universe and everything in it.

What else would a teacher need to say?

Also where is the evidence to support such a thing.

a reply to: Wildbob77

I've already given in to the logical side of the argument, saying creationism should not indeed be taught in school.

originally posted by: LoneCloudHopper2
When I was a kid I argued exactly that! You see, the whole system of mathematics is based on the theory that 1+1=2. And yes, if you take a 1 and add another 1, it does come to two separate 1's. However, I can prove that isn't the only necessary outcome. I can take two balls of clay and prove that 1+1=1. Or, I can put a male and female cat together and prove 1+1=7. The whole mathematics system is based on an assumption, one particular outlook, like all theories. The problem of pi alone proves that the system isn't perfect.

That is grasping at straws if I've ever seen it. 1 cat + 1 cat always = 2 cats. You aren't using math when you equate 2 cats procreating and having kittens to 1 + 1 = 7. That isn't 1 + 1. That is a complicated process. 1 + 1 ALWAYS = 2 when talking about quantities.

When you talk about dividing a ball of clay into 2 and merging it back together, that isn't 1 + 1. But if you assign real numbers that mean something to the balls of clay (for example the mass or weight), it will always merge together to add up to the same total amount no matter how many times you take it apart and put it together. The only way you change the numbers is if you physically change the variables, which then would need to be accounted for in the math.

I hope your teacher pointed this out to you when you were a kid. It's like saying, pasta + cheese + sauce = steak salad. The ingredients couldn't possibly become that, but you messed with the variables to alter what is there to make it a steak salad but didn't account for it in the math.