Ten Commandments Monument Removed From Oklahoma Capitol Grounds

a reply to: NoCorruptionAllowed

Thanks for your prayer, I don't mind them.

I notice that you didn't really address anything I say, just went the holier then tho route.

That's cool.

Then not having a sign telling people not to murder and hate one another is promoting a religion as well.

It really isn't, we still have the laws on the books. We just don't need a statue telling us to worship a god that still kills people and allows people to die everyday.

originally posted by: NoCorruptionAllowed
a reply to: Krazysh0t

Yeah, it is terrible to have a stone tablet telling people not to kill each other and steal stuff and lie about their neighbors and stuff like that. What were they thinking?

And the ten commandments doesn't promote any religion. It just tells people not to be a-holes, but we can't have that in this country can we?

Have you actually read the first four Commandments?

Seeing a sign that says something about Loving God isn't promoting religion either. If it said you must go to a Lutheran or a Presbyterian church every Sunday, then that would be promoting a religion.
Of course, when you are an overzealous Anti-Christian, then anything and everything that pushes your buttons about a God or deity becomes promoting religion, but that is only because you hate God or the idea that your life will have accountability after you die. I hope you are ready for that inevitability. Removing a stone Tablet is not going to save you or keep you from accountability.

Loving god is promoting religion. Everything you said above is just irrelevant. You are basically saying that atheist and agnostic opinions don't matter. God EXISTS, so telling someone to love him isn't promoting religion. That's bull#. To an atheist of agnostic, it isn't that simple. To them, god either doesn't exist or they aren't sure about his existence, so telling someone like that to love a non-existent being is highly insulting. I don't go around demanding that you love the Flying Spaghetti Monster, so don't shove a message telling me to love something that I don't believe in my face.

Separation of church and state is a simple concept, it's a wonder why Christians have so much trouble understanding it...

originally posted by: Annee

originally posted by: Raggedyman

originally posted by: Annee

originally posted by: Raggedyman

Who really cares about a few statues and a few chairs.

Probably no one.

Unless the statues and chairs represent one specific religion on government property, which is a violation of Church and State.

Other religions have been rejected to place a monument next to a Christian monument that's on government property. Its not just atheists.

If you are going to be intimidated and offended by a statue placed on the ground in a public space then I feel a little pity for you
I dont see how this impinges on your rights to live and enjoy life.
Nor do I see how a statue of bhapomet impinges on a Christians rights to live and enjoy life.

Fundys are all crazy

Its about Separation of Church and state.

You either understand it - - or you don't.

Was the Baphomet statue on government property?

And the fundamentalist demanded it gone
Your type are no better, it's the same thing, getting your knickers in a twist over nothing but pride. Tit for tat like children
It's a statue

Put it anywhere you want, take it away, it's a statue.
Almost seems you fear it, fear the rocks

You win they lose let's be nasty about it
The way some around here carry on it was on their own pirivate property

Church and state church and state, parrots

Either you get it or not

ya know each state has plenty of state parks. Instead of having all these ten commandments monuments everywhere without any other religions represented, a state could transform some of that land they hold as a state park and make it a State Park in honor of the Religions....ALL OF THEM! Christian, Buddhist, Wiccan, the various Native American religions, Islam, all of them, and leave plenty of more for additions. Give each group an equal amount of land for them to play with, let them form committees that will decide what to do with the land, and well the state can approve their designs before they begin to build. Equal representation for all who choose to take part in it. Along with the option to opt in at a later date.

To me, this would be the way to go. It would be really an educational experience for all who chose to visit, not just to celebrate your own beliefs, but also maybe explore beliefs you never knew existed. And well, given enough land, each group could reserve a portion of it for holidays and special occassions. We could experience the many ways the different groups celebrate the winter soltice, ect.

But, would the Christians go for this?

I love how the Governor says:

"I believe the people of Oklahoma should have the opportunity to vote on a proposed constitutional change to ensure that historical monuments like this one are not pushed out of public spaces.

She wants to allow the majority to vote to override the OK Constitution on this particular matter. Of course, I'm sure she'd feel the same way about a pagan statue on state property and would support a constitutional amendment to uphold THAT religion in government... NOT!

originally posted by: Bluntone22
They used the first amendment to say the monument was illegal.

They didn't reference the US Constitution. It's the Oklahoma Constitution that prohibits this statue.

SECTION II-5
Public money or property - Use for sectarian purposes.
No public money or property shall ever be appropriated, applied, donated, or used, directly or indirectly, for the use, benefit, or support of any sect, church, denomination, or system of religion, or for the use, benefit, or support of any priest, preacher, minister, or other religious teacher or dignitary, or sectarian institution as such.

Article II

originally posted by: Raggedyman
If you are going to be intimidated and offended by a statue placed on the ground in a public space then I feel a little pity for you

No one said they were intimidated or offended. It's simply against Oklahoma law.

originally posted by: NoCorruptionAllowed
And the ten commandments doesn't promote any religion.

WHAT? "I am the Lord, they God. Thou shall have no other gods before me" doesn't promote a specific religion? Are you serious? Like Annee said, you either understand separation of church and state or you don't.

a reply to: Krazysh0t

Sorry that you can not understand the fact that the ten commandments will always be part of the US history as moral base of society conducts, after all the pilgrims fathers while dissenters of the established church were still very much Christian.

Please Krazysh0t I don follow any established religion but I will not erase history from my mind because my dislike of it, you know.

a reply to: marg6043

No, you are wrong. US law is based on English Common law. Our government is setup to mirror British government AND the Iroquois Nation. The Ten Commandments are based on the Code of Hammurabi, so to pretend like they are the primary origin of morality is dishonest historically. Our morality is no more based on the Ten Commandments than the Code of Hammurabi. The only reason that the Ten Commandments are talked about more here is because the country is primarily Christian and the Commandments make up a big part of that religion.

a reply to: Krazysh0t

You have your opinion I have mine I guess we will disagree, regardless.

No harm done.

originally posted by: Raggedyman

originally posted by: Annee

originally posted by: Raggedyman

originally posted by: Annee

originally posted by: Raggedyman

Who really cares about a few statues and a few chairs.

Probably no one.

Unless the statues and chairs represent one specific religion on government property, which is a violation of Church and State.

Other religions have been rejected to place a monument next to a Christian monument that's on government property. Its not just atheists.

If you are going to be intimidated and offended by a statue placed on the ground in a public space then I feel a little pity for you
I dont see how this impinges on your rights to live and enjoy life.
Nor do I see how a statue of bhapomet impinges on a Christians rights to live and enjoy life.

Fundys are all crazy

Its about Separation of Church and state.

You either understand it - - or you don't.

Was the Baphomet statue on government property?

And the fundamentalist demanded it gone
Your type are no better, it's the same thing, getting your knickers in a twist over nothing but pride.

FACT: this is a secular government.

God, representations of God belief, does not belong on government property.

You're the one trying to make it personal.

Is it any surprise basically in modern America the only commandant left that is partially followed and dealt out punishment is "Thou shalt not kill". So if 9 out of 10 commandments are not longer enforced I can see them removing them.

a reply to: marg6043

That's really not an opinion, but a statement of fact, but whatever.

Having been watching what all has been happening in the past 5 years, the question that many people should be asking is this:

Can they be so tolerant as to have other displays put up right next to the one that they want, even if they find it offensive?

The reality is this: If the monument had remained, then the Church of Satan, after going to court and winning, would have put up a monument to Satan on the state grounds, in close proximity to the 10 commandments monument. And then others would want to put up symbols of their faith. And if the monument to Satan did not cause a great cry, that to Islam would have caused equal crying out about such. And then there would have been the waves of vandalism, and people demanding protection for their particular monuments, and it would have been a great mess.

a reply to: sdcigarpig

Clearly, this outcome was obvious to most of the country, but even now Oklahoma can't see the hypocrisy in their argument. Heck, the supporters are still trying to maintain that the monument wasn't religious in nature.

An interesting side-note, it was a Baptist minister (Bruce Prescott) who originally sued, saying the statue violated the state constitution.

originally posted by: sdcigarpig
If the monument had remained, then the Church of Satan, after going to court and winning, would have put up a monument to Satan on the state grounds, in close proximity to the 10 commandments monument. And then others would want to put up symbols of their faith. And if the monument to Satan did not cause a great cry, that to Islam would have caused equal crying out about such. And then there would have been the waves of vandalism, and people demanding protection for their particular monuments, and it would have been a great mess.

You're SO right! Source

Since the monument was erected, several other groups have asked to put up their own monuments on the Capitol grounds. Among them is a group that wants to erect a 7-foot-tall statue that depicts Satan as Baphomet, a goat-headed figure with horns, wings and a long beard. A Hindu leader in Nevada, an animal rights group and the satirical Church of the Flying Spaghetti Monster also have made requests.

I wonder how the OK people would feel about that. No, I don't.

a reply to: Krazysh0t
Of course it is a hypocrisy. The 10 commandments are the corner stone of all of the Three Judaic religions. So, if that is the case, then the question should be this:

If the monument is not religious in nature, then why are all of the evangelicals up in arms and protesting its removing?

a reply to: Sremmos80

Actually, three commandments are enough

How many rights was that monument infringing on? People get upset about the dumbest things sometimes.

originally posted by: NoCorruptionAllowed

And the ten commandments doesn't promote any religion.

Of course it does.

It demands the worship of Yahweh, a very specific deity.

It demands the observance of the Sabbath, once again a very specific religious ritual with very strict rules.

It forbids making any "graven image"---once again, a very specific religious instruction, which by the way isn't even followed by many major, traditional Christian denominations.

Those instructions are all at the top of the list.

This is the first time I have ever seen an inanimate object force religion on a population.

So scary.

originally posted by: DBCowboy
This is the first time I have ever seen an inanimate object force religion on a population.

So scary.

The kind of people who put that monument up most certainly do attempt to force their religion on people. They use the government to try to force everyone to follow their version of Christianity. When they can get away with it they use taxpayer funded schools to try and indoctrinate other people's children. I've dealt with that with my children in my lifetime so this isn't some abstract complaint.