Poles furious after Russia blames them for starting WWII

a reply to: Xcathdra

What part of the history in my post is incorrect.

All posts that don't eat up Russian propaganda is always incorrect.

I mean their so 'dreamy' over there. Nothing but a bunch of saints I tell ya.

a reply to: the2ofusr1

All of what you said is irrelevant, because many people are still alive from ww2. My great grandfather, and great grandmother included. All anyone needs to do is type your analogy of 9/11 into a search engine. What do you know contradictions all over the place that can't be hidden. Plain and simple coming to the table is a weak argument. It really is that simple. No one, and I repeat NO ONE should be so gullible.

La la la let us have a talk about giving up pieces of your country because I want it. And if you don't my invasion will be self defence. That is the definition of ignorant.

a reply to: neo96

Well those "saints", also known as the Soviet Government in 1989, denounced the Molotov-Ribbentrop Pact and acknowledged the existence of the secret protocols dividing up Poland, the Baltics and S. E. Europe in addition to establishing "sphere of influence" or "near abroad" as Putin says today.

All I can say is if a country forms an alliance with secret protocols maybe the countries in question shouldn't keep paperwork outlining the secrets, especially when one of those countries is NAZI Germany (who kept records on everything).

originally posted by: introvert
a reply to: machineintelligence

You have to look in to the history of that period to find that it was, in fact, Poland and the British that pushed Germany to invade in 1939. Germany had taken many steps to be diplomatic, but they Poles were not willing to sit at a table and converse with the Germans.

There's a lot more to history that what we are told.

Sorry, but WHAT?
How dare you?
Post more bs like this and I will report you, pal.
Ribbentrop was DIPLOMATIC?

a reply to: the2ofusr1

Yep, now it's "Corporations".

Is anyone ever going to hold gov'ts responsible for their going to war???

a reply to: the2ofusr1

Somehow I think Putin is making his own mistakes. Yes he IS smarter and does have history to draw from over old Adolf.

Making comments like "Poland" is responsible for WWII is like saying the twin towers were responsible for being where the planes hit.....LMAO

originally posted by: cavtrooper7
I am wondering what OUR English members have to say?

Its bollocks.

We tried putting our necks out to come to a diplomatic arrangement with germany.

Nor were we the ones with the huge military build up.

a reply to: introvert

Nothing changes the fact of Austria, Alsace-Lorraine, then Poland. Invaded. By Hitler.

This spin is a follow-up on the notion that Japan was 'forced' by the U.S. to attack Pearl Harbor. It was a choice, a decision by the Japanese.

As was Germany's move. Don't hear any Germans backing this one up do you......

We shouldn't forget that the responsibility of the german invasion of Poland is based on one affidavit about a false flag attack to a radio station in Gleiwitz. This is a legal problem however, not a humanitarian one. We all know the atrocities that followed and preceded that day.

History is written by the winners and is never the "truth". It would be childish to think we know it all.

a reply to: Mastronaut

Except in German it was called Fall Weiß (Case White), or in other words the Nazi operation plans for the invasion of Poland. The other German plan for the false flag portion fell under Operation Himmler(operation Konserve/Operation Canned Goods).

The false flag portion was created by Himmler himself and carried out by Reinhard Heydrich and Heinrich Müller.

The false flag operation and what occurred is not some fake news report conjured up by the Poles. It was in fact a real operation created by the Nazis against Poland in order to create justification for an invasion of Poland.

Secondly it was not just one attack on a radio station. There were in fact 7 (21 total across the front) separate targets:
* - Railway at Jablunka Pass
* - German radio station Sender Gleiwitz
* - German customs station at Hochlinden
* - Forest service station in Pitschen
* - Communications station Neuberstisch
* - Railroad station in Alt-Eiche,
* - A woman and her companion in Katowice

The Nazi infiltration team was dressed as Polish soldiers and was in fact led by SS-Sturmbannführer Alfred Naujocks. He survived the war and during the Nuremberg trials stated he was involved in the incidents and that he carried out Reinhard Heydrich's and Heinrich Müller's orders.

The plans for a German invasion of Poland took shape in the mid 1920's with Germany being pissed they lost WWI and that Poland remained Independent along with the Independent city of Danzig as well as Pomerania, Poznan, and Silesia.

Nazi Germany signed a non aggression pact with Poland in 1934. Nazi Germany, just like she did with the USSR, violated the treaty when they invaded Poland on the False Flag attacks.

a reply to: Xcathdra

There were 44 attacks during the night preceding the invasion, but what's important is that the only real proof is the Naujocks affidavit the famous "man who started WWII". Funny that he was able to "escape" allied prison in '46 and was free to live and work in Hamburg until his death in '66 without changin his name until '62. And funny it didn't mention they were dressed as polish soldiers. Nor did Hitler mention it in his speech before invading Poland. Seems an awkward way of doing false flags for propaganda.

Your assumption of plans to invading Poland by nazi 13 years before they went to power is also rather amusing. Let's ignore completely they displaced hundred of thousand of ethnic germans between '21 and '31 and let's forget their military junta that was in power after Pilsudsky, invaded and annexed Vilnius and they had to force the recognition of Polish sovereignity from Lithuania.

I don't think Poland is responsible for the start of WWII and I'm sure russian invasion of Poland was as unecessary as the german one, thus the ambassador comment is just a poor excuse, but ignoring that this was a very controversial period of our history and buying the official story with the proof that had been presented at Nurberg and later addressed in many books (with a lot of difference in the way these false flags were described) isn't a way to know the "truth".

The reality is that if there was any even stupid reason for germany to invade Poland they wouldn't be charged of all the war reparations. This is more than a reason to fabricate evidence and cannot be discounted.

I would not be at all surprised to learn that the Katyn wood murders were British inspired too, Although I do feel Chamberlain was really stupid to guarantee Poland's independence, just what was he thinking of? must have forgot WW 1 bankrupted the British Empire.

originally posted by: pikestaff
I would not be at all surprised to learn that the Katyn wood murders were British inspired too.

Do you have any source for this claim or is just a speculation?

a reply to: Mastronaut

The manpower Germany had on the border of Poland went well beyond typical border guards. You had 3 groups that invaded from the West the South and the North. Those levels of troops, aircrafts and armor just all happened to be stationed in pre-invasion locations with a full chain of command and supplies / infrastructure and invaded Poland based on insignificant location attacks?

Evidence was fabricated however it was fabricated by Nazi Germany to justify their actions. Just as Nazi Germany did in the countries they annexed / occupied leading up to their invasion of Poland.

One has to ask.. What was the Soviet justification for invading Poland 16 days after Nazi Germany started their invasion?

originally posted by: pikestaff
I would not be at all surprised to learn that the Katyn wood murders were British inspired too, Although I do feel Chamberlain was really stupid to guarantee Poland's independence, just what was he thinking of? must have forgot WW 1 bankrupted the British Empire.

Russia admitted their (as the USSR) involvement in the Katyn forest massacre.

* - Russia Admits: Katyn Massacre Ordered by Stalin

* - WSJ - Russia Admits Stalin Ordered 1940 Massacre of Poles

* - RT - Russia did not violate rights of Katyn victims’ relatives – ECHR

.............The ECHR ruled it has no competence in verifying the adequacy of the Russian investigation into events which had taken place ten years before the European Convention on human rights was adopted.

Relatives of the Katyn victims accused Russia of “inhuman or degrading treatment” towards them, citing Article 3 of the Convention. For several decades Moscow refused to reveal the truth about the mass executions. The ECHR cleared Russia in this respect, saying that by the time Russia joined the Convention in 1998 it had already publicly acknowledged that the Soviet authorities were responsible for the massacre.

...

It was not until 1990, 50 years after the Katyn massacre, that the Soviet Union recognized it was responsible for the deaths of the Polish prisoners. Before that the tragedy had been blamed on the Nazis.

President of the USSR, Mikhail Gorbachev, apologized to the Polish people, and Russian President Boris Yeltsin ordered some of the secret documents related to the Katyn case to be released to historians.

Nevertheless the tragedy has persisted in casting a shadow over the two countries’ relations.

Many in Poland were dissatisfied with the fact that Russia shelved the Katyn massacre investigation in 2004. Moscow explained the move by saying all of the Soviet officials allegedly responsible for the executions were already dead.

The decision to terminate the investigation was classified as “top secret”, together with 36 out of a total of 183 volumes of the Katyn case’s files.

In November 2010, Russia’s State Duma, the lower chamber of parliament, adopted a statement admitting that the executions of Polish citizens near Katyn in 1940 took place on the direct orders of Josef Stalin and other Soviet leaders. The statement titled “The Katyn Tragedy and its Victims”said that it was necessary to continue “verifying the lists of victims, restoring the good names of those who perished in Katyn and other places, and uncovering the circumstances of the tragedy".

Click link for remainder of article.


The only conspiracy linked to this incident was when the USSR maintained that it was Nazi Germany who performed the massacre and not the USSR. As we can now see that conspiracy has been debunked and put to rest.

a reply to: Xcathdra

I'm not sure what you are trying to say, the situation with Poland was of high tension since at least 9 months. There are also accounts of Hitler waiting for a polish ambassador at the end of august and that was one of the reasons for the postponing of the invasion, together with the unpreparedness of italians, as reported by Attolico.
Trying to support the official story is dumb, it's the official story, it is not made to be questioned. The ONLY document that supports the unjustified invasion IS the suspicious affidavit of Naujocks that isn't corroborated by other sources at Nurberg. It is also written without umlaughts so it's pretty clear it was just signed by him.
It is a very weak point and it's something nobody ever dared to review even after the war, because it's the basis on which germans where the sole responsible of the war by breaking peace, and legally they wouldn't be the sole payer of the war reparations. To me it is enough to doubt it, especially because all the other declarations of war by germans were legal (vs the US, vs the allies and vs Russia). Morally unjustifiable if you ask me, but legal.

We must not judge history with our common sense of today, in the 30s both nationalism and democracy were a new thing. The scond Polish republic was a very aggressive nationalist state that was all but tolerant about the ethnic german minority. They also placed 50k troops on the border of Lithuania in 1938 to force them to accept the annexation of Vilnius and guess what? that was on the border of east Prussia. The germans were ready to invade Poland, but they would rather get them as an ally. In fact before january Hitler was rather convinced to drop the issues on Danzig and Ribbentrob even proposed a pact ensuring the protection of Poland for getting back the city and a preferencial railroad/passage in polish territories.

But the polish military government was reassured by Chamberlain that they were protected by both british and french armies if their sovereignity was at stake. This is the reason why Poland didn't want to side with Germany and avoid open conflict. Which was not due to the false flags, but because of the displacement of hundreds of thousands of ethnic germans, and this is a proven fact, so it's hard to ignore it. The incidents of the night before the invasion was not the pretext on which the germans invaded, it was the alliance with the british and french that moved germans towards Stalin and the invasion of Poland and the massacre following it. Totally their fault, but legally it makes a big difference.

The soviet excuse was that the polish army wasn't able to protect the russian speaking ukranian and belorussians in their country. Was it a valid justification for the occupation? I think not, but that's the reason they used. However given the Chamberlain declaration and the signing of the alliance, where were british and french after the war? Why was Poland left to Stalin? Mainly because the intention wasn't to protect sovereignity, it was to kick german's ass from the east at the expense of those who died in those invasions in '39.

Today is no different, the winners write history and perpetrate it.

a reply to: Mastronaut

So the whole lebensraum thing was just an Allies hoax?

a reply to: DJW001

How did you reach that conclusion? Poland didn't need to be militarily subjugated to be part of a bigger German empire. And how was it different from the imperialism of that time, the british and french ones in particular.
Or maybe you have additional documents that show how many of those supposed false flag attacks were indeed false flags?

And just to know, what's your opinion on Eretz Israel or US worldwide financial system? There are striking similarities, but we are only ready to accuse nazi, because you know, with nazi it's pretty easy.

I am not wide awake right now, so everyone bear with me.

No matter how you look at history the winning side or the losing side, Germany invaded Poland in 1939 they wanted the land taken from them in northern Poland. I assume they wanted to try and Annex Poland or that land if I remember correctly. They wanted it back. I do believe also the allies were beginning to understand a war with Germany was in the making Germany and italy signed the axis pact in May. With World war 2 being one of my pleasures to study when I was younger since I lived in Germany at one time in my life I think it is kinda odd to blame Poland, BUT Stalin, at the time or his regime was signed into a alliance pact against Poland, to divide the land etc.

Of course after this invasion of Poland, Hitler was saying he did not want to goto war. Hitler, was also known to be saying he was pushed into war over the GERMANS living in poland etc.

Hitler's whole purpose was to take back the land taken after ww1. He wanted his people taken care of..

Their was also skirmishes in the western front in 39 as well between Germany and France. With all of Hitler's armies invading Poland, I would say it was the Allies fault for not immediately attacking Germany hell as far back as 1934.

I have debated over this before thou on ats and I am not in the mood to do it again. I would blame the allies before I would blame Poland...

The irony of course is why did the allies allow Hitler, to build a army that broke the rules at the time we sued for peace in ww1??

Yet you also have to understand the history of post ww1 Germany, to understand the magnitude of just how bad it was in Germany...

Anyhow, this crap is just propaganda. I dunno what Russia, is up to but some of this crap coming outta Moscow is odd.

originally posted by: pikestaff
I would not be at all surprised to learn that the Katyn wood murders were British inspired too, Although I do feel Chamberlain was really stupid to guarantee Poland's independence, just what was he thinking of? must have forgot WW 1 bankrupted the British Empire.

Are you #ing kidding me?
I am a Pole.
Do you realize what you just said?
Poland is country placed between Russia and Germany, whole WWII was made by JEWS(biblical - check this) to CREATE Israel, can you realize this?
Hitler literally created Israel.
Stalin had hes own purpose, and he did great(#in.g tragedy for whole world, then.

It had NOTHING to Europe, NOR German world domination, Germans were cleverly led to NOT their war - they were just scammed(ok, here's their guilt, BS about arian superrace thing, but, my god, how stupid it was).
Clever Germans created their potent roles after WWII(try to read memories of MAIN saviour of German manufacturers, mr. Speer memories), but it is unrelated, I repeat - it is unrelated to REAL WWII puropse.
But there's one thing - Poland had NOTHING to concentration camps, as US and Germany tries to tell you.
Another thing: we lost c.a. 4k of NATIONAL treasure pieces, and c.a. 2 mln of people there, more: we were sold to USSR(read wiki, if you do not know, what USSR was) for over than half of century.

Also - I Am ashamed about lack of mentioning of Czech's tragedy...nobody said noting about this - and ok, I admit, my country had some role in this...

But, still, US of A citizen would talk about Katyn?
Dude, they killed 23 thousands of most educated, brave people there.
This is why my country was vasal of USSR after war.
They literally wiped out any people, that could save us and join to the western world(1945), we were sold to USSR, and monster Stalin, then.
I strongly despise thought, that UK/GB is reponsible for ANYTHING related to WWII - look - I see GB as ISLAND, that had no choice.
GREAT Churchill knew, that USSR, when war is over do what it did.
But, think about this - WOULD Churchill risk LOTS of atomic bombs there?
Again - real atomic weapons were made a BIT before Hiroshima and Nagasaki...Churchil, imho, knew what that meant.
He KNEW.

Only
USA
decided
that
it
is
ok
to
use
it.
And it #ed. up whole word for almost 75 yrs.
Damn, what a income..right?

Now, let me take off to watch 2001 again, Kubick masterpiece, I do not care, if I am banned for this post.
I will never agree for history manipulation, never, ever.

Sorry for my engrish...