Addressing Christians (not conspiracy)

a reply to: waterLaw

I have a couple more things to add. I don't believe in the Trinity either. I do however believe in the Father and the Son.

1. Council of Nicaea

One of the topics was the relationship between the father and son. Meaning in 350 AD it was something that was still unknown since not all agreed. Once you look into Nicaea and the Catholic claim that Peter was the first Pope things break down quickly.

How is it that something as important as the relationship between the father and son was not made 100% clear by Peter?

Jesus being without sin, all knowing, and one with God does not make him God. It makes him Messiah/King who was created by God.

Peter was not the first Pope because if he was this question would have never even come up. And I imagine Peter believed what Jesus said about himself. That he was the Son of God.

When Jesus says anyone who has seen me has seen his father. This is similar to when he says I and the father are one. But the father is not flesh and blood and did not become flesh and blood.

His son came in flesh as a man to act out his father's will perfectly. The father was within Jesus but he is also within all believers. The father used his son as a vessel to deliver his message, so if you saw Jesus you saw the embodiment of God's Love and Perfection in the flesh.

No one has seen the father, but the father can be seen within those who obey the father. But only Christ was without sin, so he is the only perfect representation of the father.

2. The firstborn, the Light in Genesis

He is the firstborn, and the begging. Both statements imply he was created. I believe he was created when God said Let there be Light. Which would clearly make him the firstborn.

Everything (except Christ the Light himself) was created by, for and through the Light of Jesus Christ, but first he was born. Our father however is not bound by time, without beginning or end, never born.

This understanding also solves 2 other problems. Jesus being the Light in Genesis makes him the Word of God and co-creator of everything. This solves the riddle of the plural creators in Genesis and makes both the father and son the immortal co-creators of man.

Therefore it is no contradiction when one verse the father is called the creator and another verse that says Jesus is the creator. Both statements are correct, without contradiction, and still no Trinity.

removed post

a reply to: waterLaw

The fact that some people are hypocritical (crying out "Lord, Lord" & etc.) does not negate anything Jesus said.

At the point of Jesus incarnation as a human, he was no longer divine. He had human limitations from that point. To do all His miracles, Jesus implied that it wasn't Him doing them by His own power as God, but that God was doing them on Jesus behalf.

Read Hebrews 2:9 which implies that Jesus was God, but was "made fully human", but it was only for a "little while" and he is restored after His death.

a reply to: waterLaw

www.biblegateway.com...:21-23
As you can see there are people that even when they cry out "lord, lord" Jesus will reject them and say that they are evil doers.

21 “Not everyone who says to me, ‘Lord, Lord,’ will enter the kingdom of heaven, but only the one who does the will of my Father who is in heaven.

What is the will of the Father?

Answer: John 6:40-And this is the will of him that sent me, that every one which seeth the Son, and believeth on him, may have everlasting life: and I will raise him up at the last day.

Notice in Matthew 7 that the people come to Jesus with the thought process that because they did the works of the Church that they should be saved. These people did not rely upon Jesus for salvation. They did not do good works for goodness sake, instead they did them in attempt to get into heaven, rather than relying on Jesus for salvation.

biblehub.com...
This is reference to "the hour". No 1 will no except the father. This means that father and son are not the same meaning we would count this as 2.

I don't think you quite understand the Christian position on the Trinity. The trinity says there are three "parts" of the "one" God. Jesus is the Word of God incarnate, " In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God. The same was in the beginning with God. All things were made by him; and without him was not any thing made that was made.(John 1:1-3).Now notice the second sentence . The same was in the beginning with God. Meaning the sentence could also read, "In the beginning was God and God was with the Word and God was the Word." You can read the rest of the chapter if you like, but I'll quote the necessary parts to show that Jesus is the Word made flesh.

"14 And the Word was made flesh, and dwelt among us, (and we beheld his glory, the glory as of the only begotten of the Father,) full of grace and truth.5 John bare witness of him, and cried, saying, This was he of whom I spake, He that cometh after me is preferred before me: for he was before me.And of his fulness have all we received, and grace for grace.
For the law was given by Moses, but grace and truth came by Jesus Christ." So if Christ is part of the one God why doesn't he know the day or hour? For that answer we will look at Philippians 2:

" Let this mind be in you, which was also in Christ Jesus: Who, being in the form of God, thought it not robbery to be equal with God:
But made himself of no reputation, and took upon him the form of a servant, and was made in the likeness of men:
And being found in fashion as a man, he humbled himself, and became obedient unto death, even the death of the cross."

As you can see Christ was in the Form of God, The Word was God, but he willingly humbled himself and took on the likeness of man willingly chose to be obedient to the part of God we call "The Father". Just because we cannot grasp how one being could have three consciousnesses doesn't mean that we cannot clearly see that is what is taught in the text. Only the Father knows because Jesus(the Word) took on the likeness of men and so "The Father" could indeed keep the day or hour from Jesus because he chose to be in the form of man and obedient to the Father.

www.biblegateway.com...:5
Clearly states that there is 1 God and that Jesus is a mediator

There is only one God. Christians don't believe Jesus is a separate God, but he is the part of God that acts as a mediator. We see a bit more detail of how it goes down in John 14, 15 “If you love me, you will obey my commandments. 16 I will ask the Father, and he will give you another helper who will be with you forever. 17 That helper is the Spirit of Truth. The world cannot accept him, because it doesn’t see or know him. You know him, because he lives with you and will be in you."

www.biblegateway.com...:30
States that by hiself he can do nothing which shows weakness which God has none.

30 I can of mine own self do nothing: as I hear, I judge: and my judgment is just; because I seek not mine own will, but the will of the Father which hath sent me

Again I will refer you to Phillipians 2. Jesus, the Word, chose to be obedient to the part of God we call the Father. As you can see Jesus is simply saying the same thing. He seeks not his will but the will of the Father.

What is the will of the Father?

Answer: John 6:40-And this is the will of him that sent me, that every one which seeth the Son, and believeth on him, may have everlasting life: and I will raise him up at the last day.

John 6:51
"I am the living bread which came down from heaven: if any man eat of this bread, he shall live for ever: and the bread that I will give is my flesh, which I will give for the life of the world." Those who accept his death for sin will have eaten the bread of life. It is perfectly coherent with John 6:40.

biblehub.com...
Jesus questioned person on calling him good and stated "no 1 is good except God alone"
This simply dissociates Jesus with God yet again

" Good Master, what shall I do that I may inherit eternal life?"

We already know this answer from John 6:40 and numerous of the verses. Its to believe in the one He has sent. This man however believes it is his works that will get Him in. Jesus is attempting to get the man to realize his sinful nature.

It was a penetrating question to get the man to think about the concept of Jesus' goodness and the mans lack of goodness. The man goes away sad as Jesus says you know the commandments and the man says he has kept all these. But when Jesus ask him to give up his wealth the man leaves sad I believe its because he realized he did not keep the first and greatest commandment love the LORD your God with all your heart and with all your soul and with all your strength. You seem to read this as though Jesus is rebuking the man for asking him that, but if that were the case I don't feel the context would make much sense.

www.biblegateway.com...:13-15
please note that God cannot be tempted
www.biblegateway.com...:1-11
This then shows that Jesus was tempted. Clearly showing that he is unlike the "God that cannot be tempted"

God in the form of God(The Father, The Word, The Spirit) cannot be tempted. God in the likeness of man(the Word Made flesh)can be tempted,

But why is he called son of God?
biblehub.com...
"I have chosen him to be a son to Me, and I will be a father to him"
Clearly Solomon is chosen to be son of God in this passage and therefore negates Jesus from having the superior status of God.

First Jesus referred to himself the most as the Son of Man. People in his day were a bit more familiar with prophecy so more would know that he was referencing Daniel 7:
13 “I saw in the night visions,
and obehold, with the clouds of heaven
there came one like a son of man,
and he came to the Ancient of Days
and was presented before him.
14 And to him was given dominion
and glory and a kingdom,
that all peoples, nations, and languages
should serve him;
his dominion is an everlasting dominion,
which shall not pass away,
and his kingdom one
that shall not be destroyed."

Running out of characters so that will have to be all I can say.

a reply to: waterLaw

I believe the image spoken of in Genesis is dealing with the fact we are conscious in a way other creatures he created are not. Though I think your over looking something important. When Genesis says "...in the Image of God" the word for God there is Elohim which is the plural form of the word "Eloah", and it can have multiple meanings based on the context here we can tell that it refers to the True God. So it is a plural word that refers to the one being God. We don't have to stop at this idea of a plural word to refer to one entity we can see this one entity interact with itself. For example, "Then the LORD rained upon Sodom and upon Gomorrah brimstone and fire from the LORD out of heaven." The lord rained fire. Who did he get the fire from? The Lord. There are more and I will recommend Michael Heiser :michaelsheiser.com...

Thats just a little blog post he has some video links and stuff there at the end.

a reply to: Jim Scott

Yes, the Trinity is real and backed by scripture:

Yes, the Hebrew God is a plural expression. However, the Hebrew God isn't a 3 fold expression, but a 4 fold expression; YHVH.





The Trinity is incomplete. An object with only 3 sides, or aspects, cannot exist in our dimensional reality. Only a 4 fold expression, "The Word" or the "LOGOS", is. Therefore, the Hebrew God MUST be a 4 fold expression, because IT exists.

a reply to: Akragon

Life?
You two are crying because I said the trinity isn't biblical... its not...
How am I "in attack mode" for telling the truth?

No death.
And again you have it backwards. So the truth is, if you
could train yourself some how ( don't ask me ) to think in the
opposite direction from your own self excusing, condescending,
way of thinking? You'd be exctly right. And you couldn't make
me cry if my life depended on it. So get off your high horse and
quit spreading lies.

Not at all... I simply dislike error in theology...

Who could tell?

a reply to: Murgatroid

Good job Murgatroid, I love you man.

a reply to: randyvs

What lies?

Find the word Trinity in the bible... Theres only two passages in the entire book that specifically state the triune God Christians believe in... both are fraudulent

Christianity has spent the last 1800 years poking through the bible trying to find every little tidbit of information that might vaguely point to a trinity... Except the Jews didn't recognise a triune God... Jesus was a jew...

None of the apostles recognise said triune God... None even used the Trinitarian formula...

The Commandment that wasn't followed

Jesus himself said he has a God, and none are higher then HE... which included himself...

Its not my fault Christians hold on for dear life to something that simply isn't true... and can be shown to be false according to your own book...

but I guess its all just lies...

a reply to: Akragon

No mortal man would have/could have done, what Jesus Christ did.

The most that your argument can hope to accomplish is
disagreement. So may I suggest we, in recoginition of the temerity
involved in this redundant argument. You and I just agree to disagree
and from this point forward we both abandon any grudges that
may exist between us. What say you?

a reply to: Akragon

I know you don't believe in the infallible bible theory but let me help your debate against Christians.

If the bible is infallible it should contain no contradictions.The trinity contradicts many verses, and is very confusing. Ask 100 Christians to explain the Trinity and you can get 100 different answers. And all 100 will swear it makes since to them. This alone should prove the Trinity is not found in the bible.

However believing that Jesus is of the same perfect nature of God and-co creator with God contradicts no scriptures, and actually reconciles all verses without needing the Catholic Trinity.

a reply to: randyvs

And that makes sense of course. The earthly body can be tempted. It feels hunger, thirst, pain, lust ... all the things that cause our downfall so easily if we are not on guard against them and do not stay strong.

But being tempted in the flesh does not make the spirit inside weak.

originally posted by: Isurrender73
If the bible is infallible it should contain no contradictions.The trinity contradicts many verses, and is very confusing. Ask 100 Christians to explain the Trinity and you can get 100 different answers. And all 100 will swear it makes since to them. This alone should prove the Trinity is not found in the bible.

Every time someone mentions this they NEVER give a source...

Why is that?

Could it be because the only sources that say this are cults, Gnostics, and the false religions?

I have not seen ONE single credible source to back this argument up.

And no, Soros' Wikipedia does NOT have an ounce of credibility...

I think the Trinity is attacked so that they can deny the deity of Jesus.

Faith Groups that Reject the Trinity

• Muslims
• Mormons
• Jehovah's Witnesses
• Christian Science
• Scientology
• Arians
• Armstrongism
• Christadelphians
• The Way International
• Unification Church

The Trinity has become the main doctrine that all the cult groups attack. It is also the main doctrine that all the mainline, historic churches agree upon. We may all have our differences, Catholics and varying Protestant groups, but when it comes to the doctrine on God we all agree that the Bible teaches belief in One God revealed in three persons, as Father, Son, and Holy Spirit. Nevertheless we would not want to believe in the Trinity if the Bible did not teach it, no matter what the beliefs of our various churches were.

It's interesting that the cult groups usually give their members a false definition of the Trinity. For example, the magazine salesmen knocking on your door with their propaganda from Brooklyn, New York, say that the church teaches that there are three gods in one. This is completely false.

IS THE TRINITY TRUE?

Virtually all non-Christian cults (esp. Oneness believers and Jehovah’s Witnesses) reject the doctrine of the Trinity and teach that the early church had no such concept of a triune God, but rather they held to a unitarian concept of God (i.e., God existing as one Person).

So vast is the evidence that the early church envisaged a tri-personal God and not a unitarian or unipersonal deity to which groups such as Oneness Pentecostals (as well as Muslims, Jews, and JWs) hold, that Oneness writers such as William B. Chalfant make desperate attempts to convince Oneness believes that the early church Fathers were really modalists (Oneness):

The Trinity and the Early Church: Debunking the Oneness Myth

The Scriptures are FULL of references to the triune nature of God...

What they always fail to point out is the fact that the only reason that the word 'trinity' doesn't appear in Scripture is simply because it didn't exist back then.

Theophilus appears to be the earliest writer to use the term 'trinity' in an epistle written to Autolycus.

Theophilus was the first to define the Trinity in the second century as G-d, G-d's word, and G-d's wisdom. In the third century, Tertullian re-defined it as the contemporary Father, Son, and Holy Spirit, demonstrating the transition in the early church away from the aggressive monotheism of Judaism.

Which church father formalized the doctrine of the Trinity?

Many who attack the Trinity argue that the word isn't in the Bible so it can't be true. Well it is true, the word “Trinity” isn’t found in the Bible. A similar argument is used by theological modernists who assert that the term “homosexual” is a modern word that didn’t exist at the time the Bible was written, therefore the Bible can’t condemn homosexuality. I think most people will agree that the Bible STILL condemns homosexuality, even thought this particular English word wasn’t used in the Greek or Hebrew texts.

Interestingly, the word “pornography” is similarly absent from Scripture, but we are still able to view the biblical teachings on sexual morality, coupled with Jesus’ teaching that a man who looks at a woman with lust commits adultery with her in his heart to recognize that pornography is sinful. The word “theocracy” is not found in the Bible, but the concept can be found there. The absence of a word does not preclude its teaching in Scripture.

The word "Trinity" isn't in the Bible

Although the words “holy trinity” are not found in the Bible, the Bible both Old and New Testaments – clearly refers to the one God as a tri-unity – Father, Son, and Holy Spirit.

evidencetobelieve.net...

Source: Trinity Pamphlet

The teaching of the Church from the first century onward has always been trinitarian. The first Gospel, Saint Matthew, clearly establishes the trinitarian nature of God, especially in the baptismal formulae of the "great commission."

Paul's companion, Saint Luke, and his Gospel and the Acts which clearly teach trinitarian doctrine can only lead a believer to conclude any denial of the Trinity is clear and complete heresy. To wait two hundred years to deny the Trinity is just foolish heresy - clumbsy work of Satan at his sloppiest.

Confessional's Bytes: The Modern Day Modalists—Part I

In doing so they embrace modalism, a heresy that was condemned by the Synod of Smyrna in a.d. 200. The Nicene and Athanasian creeds also condemn modalism. If Jesus is the Father, why then does Jesus refer to the Father and the Holy Spirit in manner that distinguishes them from Himself, if they are merely “expressions” or “manifestations” of himself. Once again, this scripture makes no sense if one adheres to oneness doctrine. It could only be explained away with poor exegesis. In fact, there are more than 60 new testament verses alone mentioning the Father, Son, and Holy Spirit in the same verse!

The Jesus Only Movement's Teachings Are Heresy And Nonsensical!

a reply to: Murgatroid

It doesn't matter that the Christians started calling God a trinity as early as 168 AD. The Hebrew God is expressed as a 4 fold manifestation; YHVH

So, if Christians want to say that their God is expressed 3 fold, then they have an incomplete, different, and a made up God, one that isn't the same as the Hebrew God.

a reply to: randyvs

Never had a grudge with you randy...

yet you always seem to have issues with me... which is fine, most Christians do...

Notice I said "Most"... at least this time its accurate in its usage LOL

a reply to: Murgatroid

What does it matter when you don't read what people link anyways... read the link I posted to my thread... there is ample evidence against the trinity in that thread and that isn't even the tip of the bucket

and as for your links... all from Christian websites of course... and mostly pure nonsense...

Always love when you Christians throw the word "cult" around... basically anyone that doesn't agree with your denomination or belief system classifies as a cult... ironically Christianity also can be classified as a cult as well.

Many who attack the Trinity argue that the word isn't in the Bible so it can't be true. Well it is true, the word “Trinity” isn’t found in the Bible. A similar argument is used by theological modernists who assert that the term “homosexual” is a modern word that didn’t exist at the time the Bible was written, therefore the Bible can’t condemn homosexuality. I think most people will agree that the Bible STILL condemns homosexuality, even thought this particular English word wasn’t used in the Greek or Hebrew texts.

Uhm... nonsense

there is a clear definition of homosexuality in the bible... That's why the belief is in your religion.... On the other hand there are only two passages that clearly state the Trinitarian formula in the bible, and as I've stated previously... both are fraudulent

The teaching of the Church from the first century onward has always been trinitarian. The first Gospel, Saint Matthew, clearly establishes the trinitarian nature of God, especially in the baptismal formulae of the "great commission."

Paul's companion, Saint Luke, and his Gospel and the Acts which clearly teach trinitarian doctrine can only lead a believer to conclude any denial of the Trinity is clear and complete heresy. To wait two hundred years to deny the Trinity is just foolish heresy - clumbsy work of Satan at his sloppiest.

Well first off...Mark is considered the first gospel... Not matthew... and again for the third time in this thread... the Trinitarian formula in Matthew 28 is not from Jesus mouth... IF it was, said commandment would have been followed... but it wasn't... see my thread

Neither Paul or Luke's writing specifically teach a triune God... And there is NO way in hell anyone would ever come to the conclusion that God is a trinity by reading the old or new testaments... without those two specific passages... theres literally nothing... And the main reason why the trinity is believed in most denominations of Christianity is because its drilled into your heads... even before you can read you learn about the trinity... and even if one manages to figure out its simply not there... said person feels nothing but guilt because they've been brainwashed (likely since a very young age) to believe in said triune God... so they couldn't break from the belief if they tried... unless they're strong

and of course in the end of your info... attribute the lack of belief in the trinity to none other then Satan...

oh so very typical...

a reply to: Akragon

Never had a grudge with you randy...

I said we may have. You may p### me off from time to time
but I make it a rule not carry a grudge. The thing I try to remember
is that on this site, we discuss topics we would normally avoid
in person. We'd prolly get along famously in the real world.