No mentioning Jesus death in Nicene Creed

a reply to: Utnapisjtim

Hi Utna, I have never read that thread you linked.... I'll read it and then come back to you.

a reply to: Utnapisjtim

I did read that thread!! And I have also replied..... see my post there.

a reply to: Agartha

I did, and couldn't help myself, and wrote another a bit more in-depth reply to your first post in the thread. I better look it over, as far as I remember the thread ended in ruins and rubble, so it feels a bit like angling for the Midgard Serpent. Damn there were were more stars in that thread than there are in the zodiac, I better look into it

a reply to: Utnapisjtim

hahaha these kind of threads never end well! lol

I'll have a look at that thread again tomorrow after work, too tired for indepth conversations right now.

a reply to: Utnapisjtim

Where did you source that text from? I am sorry, but the copy I have clearly indicates he died...

Also, the roman soldiers defended Jesus? They are the ones who tortured him...

a reply to: raymundoko

As far as I understand, the part about him actually dying was added as late as in 1973.

Except for the crucifixion part, and with slighly different tools and circumstances a surgeon once did the same procedure as the soldier with the lance did on Jesus— when I suffered pneumothorax way back. What you do is you pierce a hole into the chest to equalise air pressure and to drain the chest for blood and water. Takes two or three days to heal. Today as for 2000 years ago.

As for torturing him, the soldiers merely did what they had been told, but when an officer is called to the crucifixion site, and he hears Jesus speak and probably recognises him, and seeing that he can no longer breathe, he calls out that Jesus is innocent and have him rushed down from the cross and have one of the soldiers pierce his chess, and drain the chest for blood and water. The centurion was clearly a believer in John the Baptist, understanding that Jesus had already died, as in that he shouldn't have to die again, honoring John and the value of baptism, the transitional element, that you die from your old self, receive a new Biblical name and a tabula rasa to rise up ressurrected from the water a new man, reborn. Modern baptism has completely lost its mission, value and meaning.

a reply to: Utnapisjtim

Jesus was pierced while ON the crucifix. He was NOT taken down first...

John 19:33,34

33 but coming to Jesus, when they saw that He was already dead, they did not break His legs. 34 But one of the soldiers pierced His side with a spear, and immediately blood and water came out.

Then in vs 38:

Afterward Joseph of Arimathea, who had been a secret disciple of Jesus (because he feared the Jewish leaders), asked Pilate for permission to take down Jesus' body. When Pilate gave permission, Joseph came and took the body away.

You also did not answer my question. Where did you source this text?

a reply to: raymundoko

Would you say looking at someone from a distance is enough to establish someone is dead? Besides the verb Gr. τεθνηκότα is perfect participle, meaning that the text actually says that the soldiers saw that he was already dying.

So your response is complete conjecture?

I'm guessing the getting pierced and then Being left there for a further undetermined amount of time confirmed their observations...however they weren't at a distance. The soldiers were right at him. Close enough to stab him with a roman spear.

Again, where did you source the text? Did you write it yourself?

a reply to: Utnapisjtim

a reply to: raymundoko

Read my reply once again. I forgot a little detail.

a reply to: Utnapisjtim

Source that edit? I can't find a single translation that says that...

Are you making this up on the fly?

You also seem to misunderstand a perfect participle, as a perfect participle is a completed action. DYING is NOT a completed action, it is an action. Dead is a completed action as it has completed the act of dying.

Source

a reply to: raymundoko

No, that's what so damned silly with our Bibles, see?

biblehub.com...

Look for the text that says «John 19:33 V-RPA-AMS» -- click it to open the grammar key, or believe me when I say those letters mean Verb - Perfect Participle Active - Accusative Masculine Singular

Text says Jesus was in the process or state of dying, or since we know he actually survived, he was in the risk of dying. He stopped breathing.

Root word is Gr. θνῄσκω it translates as the process of dying or

biblehub.com...

thnéskó: to die
Original Word: θνῄσκω
Part of Speech: Verb
Transliteration: thnéskó
Phonetic Spelling: (thnay'-sko)
Short Definition: I am dying, am dead
Definition: I die, am dying, am dead.

Perhaps the original Credo reflected information that "everyone knew" at the time?

That whoever Yeshua actually was ... he didn't die ON a Roman cross.

DEATH/SACRIFICE wasn't the point except for those authorities later reenacting pagan fertility rites (or trying to capitalize on their popularity) for their new religion.

The idea that He didn't die makes a heck of a lot more sense than that he was supernaturally resurrected.

Explains a lot, actually.

a reply to: Gryphon66

Yes, suddenly there is no need for magic, gods, miracles, supernatural spirits-- and there's no gain for the sinners, only for the wise. Just as it's supposed to be. And most important of all: Jesus managed to slip away....

originally posted by: raymundoko
Again, where did you source the text? Did you write it yourself?

My NA28 (Nestle-Aland ver. 28) has τεθνηκότα and
my Bagster Analytical Greek lexicon says «acc. sing. masc. part. perf.»
My terrible Greek tells me then that the text of John 19:33 should read «he was already dying» and not as most bibles has it (since they have based their whole magical mystery wholesale operation on Jesus being dead), that «he was already dead».

Besides, everyone who is dead in this way in all gospels, well, they're not dead, they are either «spiritual dead» as in «belonging to the world» or Jesus says they are not dead at all, but merely sleeping and or he simply does a trick and wakes them up as if they were merely sleeping. Check it out yourself: biblehub.com... (all verses in the column to the right)

a reply to: Utnapisjtim

All you did was disprove your point...

Am Dead. Perfect Participle would indicate a COMPLETED ACTION. Dying is NOT a completed action...

Perfect Participle would be "He was already dead".

This just comes down to you mistranslating text based on your armchair research, which is incorrect.

a reply to: Utnapisjtim

So you didn't source it anywhere. You are mistranslating the text all on your own.

a reply to: raymundoko

Obviously he wasn't dead, because.....

But they were terrified and affrighted, and supposed that they had seen a spirit.

38 And he said unto them, Why are ye troubled? and why do thoughts arise in your hearts?

39 Behold my hands and my feet, that it is I myself: handle me, and see; for a spirit hath not flesh and bones, as ye see me have.

40 And when he had thus spoken, he shewed them his hands and his feet.

41 And while they yet believed not for joy, and wondered, he said unto them, Have ye here any meat?

42 And they gave him a piece of a broiled fish, and of an honeycomb.

43 And he took it, and did eat before them.

Dead people don't eat fish and honeycomb, or presumable, use the toilet afterwards.

What ever happened to «Jesus died to atone for the sins of humankind?» Try to question that in front of a packed Easter Mass. You don't wanna do that. Trust me. I actually did that once. I could have been killed at the spot had not the priest managed to pull me out of their claws and escorted me out the back. Never saw such a face on a priest ever. Last time I show up pissed in the Catholic Church during the most important Mass of the year. Won't happen again! Promise.

originally posted by: Utnapisjtim
a reply to: solongandgoodnight

I don't know what you'd call it, was some sort of a provincial-pentecostal-close-minded-heal-me-Jesus-pay-my-dues kind of church I guess, I just played there. Luckily I got my fair share of the collection up front and the drums weren't mine, so I was pretty fine with everything really. I actually think there was an episode with the lightning hitting their church a few years later. A cow was killed by lightning strike in the same storm I think. I remember thinking «Poor cow, but YES! HELL YES!»

Were you a Christian at that time?

Was it a Catholic church or a Pentecostal church ?

I spent many years in the Pentecostal church, they don't have priest.

Or was it a Catholic church that believed in the gifts of the spirit?

originally posted by: raymundoko
a reply to: Utnapisjtim

All you did was disprove your point...

Am Dead. Perfect Participle would indicate a COMPLETED ACTION. Dying is NOT a completed action...

Perfect Participle would be "He was already dead".

This just comes down to you mistranslating text based on your armchair research, which is incorrect.

Looks like you are at least partly right. I've been mixing with present participle. And it's been a while since I did this research so I mixed up a few things. Sorry about that. However, since we're here now, there is but one verb here, to die. Perfectum participle of «to die», wouldn't that be «had died» and not «was dead»? «Was dead» involves an adjective which is absent in the Greek text, but added for readability and dogma in English. The soldier saw that Jesus had already died, perhaps he carried some sort of sign showing he had been baptised by John the Baptist. Had died. That was what I meant.

And, let's not forget. The soldiers weren't physicians and they were observing him from several feet away and below him. If he was dead, then, why would the blood come out of him when they pierced him if the blood that came out wasn't hemothorax and the reason it came out was that the chest was compressed with air leaking from his lung? Does dead people bleed? And if you were in the process of helping a murder of justice victim slip away from Gehenna, what would you most likely say and do? Sticking knives and spears into people can actually be acts of healing. I've been under the knife a time or two myself. And it's plausible these soldiers knew how to heal a punctured or collapsed lung, it was a very common soldiers' injury. Well, that is what the Gospel is describing the soldiers doing anyway.