No mentioning Jesus death in Nicene Creed

T.L. Osborne has raised over 100 people from the dead in Africa.

Sure he has, but not one in a this country where people could actually see it happen? The only way people rise from the dead is if they're not actually dead such as being drugged.

a reply to: Quetzalcoatl14

My own personal experiences with 'it' are why I believe very strongly the way I do.

The fact that even most Christians don't buy that argument is far more telling in my view than non-Christians beliefs.

That doesn't make it any less the truth though.

The vast majority of Christians are just as deceived as non-Christians are.

The truth always rests with the minority.

originally posted by: Oannes
Just because we aren't capable of resurrection, doesn't mean that Jesus or Ets can't. Actually, any race advanced enough would probably achieve this eventually. We can clone already. Who's to say there aren't others out there who can achieve much more?

Yes, medically and scientifically, we can, and are resurrecting. We donate our organs, and we are resurrected through the lives of those we saved. Donated embryonic and fetal stem cells cultures, as well as some adult stem cells cultures can continue indefinitely, providing therapeutic cures for millions of people in need.

But, a rotting corpse after 3 days isn't going to be resurrected except through cloning, and it's gonna take more than 3 days to recreate a mature adult male.

Now talking about ET.....I'd like to think that they would have "Beam me up Scotty" technology, in which your atoms are reassembled from your DNA blue print, hopefully leaving out harmful viruses and defects......



Now that I can get on board with!

originally posted by: windword
a reply to: Murgatroid

The 'swoon' theory has been disregarded by almost all scholars.

I'm so sick of this kind of BS when it come to the fallacies of religion, and specifically, the resurrection of Jesus. What you really mean is, most intellectually dishonest, biased Christian Bible scholars disregard the "swoon" theory.

People don't rise from the dead. If Jesus existed, and the stories are to be believed in the slightest, then Jesus survived his ordeal. Either that, or people were making stuff up. Bodies don't come back from the dead.

And THAT is the truth about this whole shambles. If we ever rise from the dead, we do so as clones, brought back from seed up. Like the prophecy says about the resurrection, that the dead bones will become alive, they will clone ancient people from bones and mummies.

Part Of Being Alive Is Not Knowing Things...
One More Day Just Reminds Me Of The Things I Dont Know... And Convinces Me Of The Things I'll Never Ever Know. In The Mean Time... There Is Only Entertainment.
Some Things Designed To Enlighten Actually Are Just Entertainment.
The Jesus Resurrection Is No Myth. When They Mention His Death... They Mean It.
But The Third Day Thing May Indeed Be Hard To Grasp. However... We Are Not Talking Of The Average Joe. This Is "JESUS!" Son Of God!
Take That To Heart Before You Sound Yet Another Bar Discrediting Him.
Do You Own Works! Marvel At Yourself And Delight If You Must... However... When You Talk Of Jesus... Be Mindful That Rising On The Third Day Was Not His Miracle. It Was His Work That Marveled. The Third Day Thingy Was Just That Moment Wherein He Was Realized.
Those Who To Hell Went... Did So With Him There To See For Himself.

BUT... Jesus... As Marvelous As He Was... Was Not A God Given Gift.
He Was God's Debt Paid In full. He Asked Abraham For Something absolutely tremendous in arrogance. And He Got It. So Goes The Tale Of God. They Say When He Pays... He Pays Big!
Boy Oh Boy Does He Pay. Start That On Your Thread.


To Linger Too Much Is A Simple Thing. If You Must Know Of Jesus... Talk To Him!
He Listens. And He Gives Freely. Just Cause He's Not Here In What You Demand According To Your Arrogance... Doesn't Mean He's Not Here.

I'm no fanatic. Nor am I a Christian per se. I am Catholic by tradition. Not nor ever by faith.
But... Jesus Put A spook On Me One Time. It lasted 54 days. It was a shock. I went looking for the tradition.... just trying to revive a long lost tradition my elders treasured and passed on to me. But what I found was Jesus. It took me about six days to figure it out. But it only took Jesus an hour to fix me. And He truly did. He Saw my sickness and cured it. A sickness of the flesh... tortured by the mind. I never saw it coming. He didn't say a thing. He took that sickness from me and more than anything he "CONVINCED THE $#!+ OUT OF ME!"

The One Question You Should Be Asking Is... "Why Do I Deserve This Generosity!?!" (Do Like Don Corleone!)

Abraham... May God Bless Him... Was Submissive To An Arrogance So Unholy It Was Totally Worth The Bind And Debt God Brought On Himself. Let's Admire It. (((NOW FAST FORWARD TO JESUS... READ THE BOOK(S) AND FATHOM)))

Jesus Was/Is/Always Will Be The Greatest Spook Of All Time.
I Relapsed (Not Druggy Though) Because I Couldnt Bare Another Day Of Purity. It's hard...
It's something I loved and missed... But it's a sickness. So I threw away his gift for my own gratification. I'll pay with my soul. But When I'm in HELL burning... I'll remember God... Abraham... Isaac... Jacob... And Jesus.

originally posted by: FurvusRexCaeli

Bollocks! Had his suffering-or-not been controversial it would most likely NOT have been any references to it

Of course it was controversial. And of course controversies are the subject of creeds. That's why they had councils and wrote creeds--to resolve controversies. The really big ones, back in the day, were primarily Christological. That's why the Son gets so much attention in the Nicene Creed, the Father only a brief introduction, and the Holy Spirit is just a footnote. The Creed emphasizes the distinct personhood of the Son vis-a-vis the other persons of the godhead, that this person (the Son) and not the others suffered, and that the suffering was real.

Wrong. His death was controversial and questionable, so they agreed on «suffering». As far as I know the part about Jesus dying wasn't entered into the Catholic profession of faith until 1973, probably as a direct result of the Vatican II council together with the Nova Vulgata and the lot of the restoration reforms within the Catholic Church in the 20th century.

It doesn't say giving up his spirit. It says giving up his pnauma, his breath, his lungs stop working. I did that once meself actually. Had to go through the exact same procedure as Jesus too actually, but I am still alive. To stop breathing doesn't mean that you die. It means you stop breathing. Like I said, it happens, no death need apply.

If you want to cherry-pick definitions and ignore context, sure. We could also say Jesus "gave up his flatulence" and let loose a mighty fart. It would be contrary to a couple thousand years of unbroken tradition, but if we were really obstinate, we could force that reading onto the text.

Of course, it's not only the Gospels that say Jesus died. Paul says so, in 1 Cor 15:3. John of Patmos says so in Rev 1:5. Clement of Rome says so in 1 Clem 24:1. And there's Ignatius of Anticoch in his letter to the Ephesians (19:1). And Irenaeus in Against Heresies (V.7). It was the universal belief of the Ante-Nicene Church that Jesus died on Golgotha.

If you look closely, how many (other than perhaps Paul) do actually say that Jesus died as a direct cause of the crucifixion? Jesus died by the hands of John the Baptist. Are you saying that the good lord suffered the second death? Then I guess he IS the Beast, which is supposed to be in Hell. Makes sense.

What ever happened to «Jesus died to atone for the sins of humankind?» Try to question that in front of a packed Easter Mass. You don't wanna do that. Trust me.

Right, it's generally considered bad form to go to a religious observance and start theological arguments in the middle of the ritual. Some religions, in some places, would have tortured you or killed you for that. Rudeness is not tolerated equally around the globe.

The priest was holding up an effigy of Jesus, and then he started pushing needles into it, when he pushed in the third one I was unable to sit still, so I, well, I made a scene, and I may have mentioned something about woodoo and Solomonian skin-sacrifices, and you have no idea how skilled in martial arts Catholics are. Could have ended in a horrible Jackie Chan scene, so thank heavens for those sods' respect for their priests, Emergency Bishop for the Rescue!

Sometimes... it's a marvelous idea to stay away from priests, pastors and the likes.
They can be spooky. One told me once about the authority of the church and how 7 sacraments are needed. When I Learned of the 4th and 5th and 6th and how at the 7th I'm suppose to be a priest or pastor... I thought that can never be. 4th was marriage. I hate that because it's til.death. I wouldn't put that burden on a woman nor myself.

Pretty much now imagining that was concocted in the 1900s.

Help me out here op

Btw: your threads are delightful. S&F

a reply to: Pinocchio

Catholicism is a pact with Satan, easy as that. Satan can't walk properly, priests aren't allowed to, you know. Result of the shambles is a bunch of sacraments some sort of soul-pact over the destinies of man. They seem to basically fight over who can be the most disgraceful and deceiving. And matched against the level of cheering and worship from the crowd at their feet. They love their art and furniture way more than they love their subjects.

Jesus has an ability that goes beyond anything were capable of. He can open a hole in space time. It is known as the Ru gate. If you see images of Jesus in a gate way (usually seated) that's him parting the fabric of existence. There's even a church near my place that depicts this very thing. This is also why he is known as the King of Tear. There are even 16th century paintings showing him opening a fiery hole in space time. Never limit what he is capable of. CERN is trying to do the exact same thing, and look at how they have to achieve it. Not even a close second.

I believe it would've stemmed from the Jewish claim of non-messiahhood which balances on their claim that he cannot be divine since he was "hung from a tree & cursed". This of course is countered, since prophecy would say this was needed to be a true defeater of death. The layman does not understand exegetical context, but what they do understand is suffering.

As a religious-political beginning, they were obviously striving to stricken their own genesis of sticking controversy withing any religious circle. Jewish circles obviously being the most-important to defy in the nature of the word of God through Jesus Christ.

The first thing anyone who asks a reader of the Bible will be told is about his Crucifixion (which I take it you believe was survived? lol) & eventual Resurrection. I'm positive this was not overlooked.

originally posted by: Utnapisjtim
a reply to: Pinocchio

Catholicism is a pact with Satan, easy as that. Satan can't walk properly, priests aren't allowed to, you know. Result of the shambles is a bunch of sacraments some sort of soul-pact over the destinies of man. They seem to basically fight over who can be the most disgraceful and deceiving. And matched against the level of cheering and worship from the crowd at their feet. They love their art and furniture way more than they love their subjects.

While I can't totally agree.... I will admit it's not easy to disagree.
Not your finest work. Wording needs to be corrected. But that aside. You know.
I won't judge you... I actually admire you. Thanks for the reply

Here's my take...
Catholicism is my folks tradition. My grandmother endure her 80 plus years devoted to the faith. It stuck with me. It served her well. I am by tradition a Catholic. But not by faith.
My faith belongs to God and I do well for myself to believe I must endure a lifetime believing.
Only when my time is done will my ideas be put to rest. And God shall shun me or keep me.
Either way I'm fine. I don't need forgiveness for a deed a two... Nor praise for my actions.
Prize will come when I am dead.

But... a Catholicism will be the ruin of me if I decide to live in purity and pray.
Purity is hard for me. Actually don't like it very much. It is selfless and selfish to me at the same time. Selfless because feeding my family when they're hungry is not going to be done preaching nor with good works all the time. selfish because I need my sins to know I'm alive and live well. I hope it makes sense. I don't really know how to write it.

I can't answer for a God who is vexed with ... But whilst that is the truth... I do understand that for him it must be frustrating to set the standard and have me rebuke it. Whilst others who are not of his doing live up to it and mock him for his adoration for me. Thus no good can come of it. I suck hard. But I also tend to bring to him a chance to redeem himself by surrendering to my not lucky moments...lol I can only hope.

Catholicism it seems is not for me as far as faith goes... But I do remember the faith my family put into. Thus I'll always keep it as a tradition. But not going to do seven sacraments and spend time hoping it helps. I prefer to live as a charlatan and find my own peace with it.
How.... dunno!

Women... cigarette smoking... a beer... sleep... And the occasional lies. Does me well.

I hurt who? Dunno. See me in a year and ask me again.

originally posted by: Oannes
Jesus has an ability that goes beyond anything were capable of. He can open a hole in space time. It is known as the Ru gate. If you see images of Jesus in a gate way (usually seated) that's him parting the fabric of existence. There's even a church near my place that depicts this very thing. This is also why he is known as the King of Tear. There are even 16th century paintings showing him opening a fiery hole in space time. Never limit what he is capable of. CERN is trying to do the exact same thing, and look at how they have to achieve it. Not even a close second.

As Simple As Can Be... We Draw The Line (Geometry) And Often Dare Not To Cross It.
But... Everyso Often Someone Does. If They LIve To Tell... We'd But Learn That No One Likes To Carry A Cross. Especially To The End.

a reply to: Agartha

Well, there's not even evidence of Jesus having ever existed anyway, no proof of a historic Jesus outside of the Bible.

Nope your wrong....

Scholars generally consider Tacitus's reference to the execution of Jesus by Pontius Pilate to be both authentic, and of historical value as an independent Roman source.

a reply to: Blue_Jay33

Nope, You're wrong. The Tacitus testimony has been handily debunked, over and over.....as well as the others like Josephus and Pliny.

Tacitus, another second-century Roman writer who alleged that Christ had been executed by sentence of Pontius Pilate, is likewise cited by Righi. Written some time after 117 C.E., Tacitus' claim is more of the same late, second-hand "history." There is no mention of "Jesus," only "the sect known as Christians" living in Rome being persecuted, and "their founder, one Christus." Tacitus claims no first-hand knowledge of Christianity. No historical evidence exists that Nero persecuted Christians--Nero did persecute Jews, so perhaps Tacitus was confused. There was certainly not a "great crowd" of Christians in Rome around 60 C.E., as Tacitus put it, and, most damning, the term "Christian" was not even in use in the first century. No one in the second century ever quoted this passage of Tacitus. In fact, it appears almost word-for-word in the fourth-century writings of Sulpicius Severus, where it is mixed with other obvious myths. Citing Tacitus, therefore, is highly suspect and adds virtually nothing to the evidence for a historical Jesus.

Such are the straws believers must grasp in order to prop up their myth.

ffrf.org...

originally posted by: Utnapisjtim
a reply to: SlapMonkey

I was banished from my first church when I was sixteen. They said the music we played made them all wiggly and funny making them think forbidden thoughts, so they decided we were the devil and tossed the whole band out, cursing us banning us from ever returning. I was from another town so no big deal for me, but the other two were actually going there like every week, so for them it was pretty hairy afterwards. I don't think they were ever admitted back. So much for the Heavy Rock of Peter....

LOL....what kind of church were you going to? I've heard some off the wall stuff but this ranks up there. sounds like a bunch of quacks.

a reply to: solongandgoodnight

I don't know what you'd call it, was some sort of a provincial-pentecostal-close-minded-heal-me-Jesus-pay-my-dues kind of church I guess, I just played there. Luckily I got my fair share of the collection up front and the drums weren't mine, so I was pretty fine with everything really. I actually think there was an episode with the lightning hitting their church a few years later. A cow was killed by lightning strike in the same storm I think. I remember thinking «Poor cow, but YES! HELL YES!»

a reply to: Pinocchio

Admire you grannie rather than me, mate. I still have a long way to go. But if the Church had truly loved its enemies and like say, sold its valuables and given the money to the poor and so on, had the Church paid its dues and cleaned its kettles on the inside as well, we would have had no need for sacraments or kyrie's, sworn oaths and testaments, crucifixions and sacrificial lambs. Science is all we need, mind over matter. No need for sworn Medieval bargains with the Devil, written in the blood of our heroes and performed repeatedly in shameful rites with a clergy high on saints' and martyrs' sufferings. Be good and expect nothing in return but the joys of doing good.

originally posted by: Blue_Jay33

Nope your wrong....

Nope, you are wrong.... re-read this thread, I have already posted about Tacitus.

www.abovetopsecret.com...

a reply to: Agartha

I'd like to challenge you, Tacitus is the real deal. So is most likely the person(s) behind the Jesus character, but I agree that there is the element of myth one have to see past, but the shear value of his wisdom alone is worth sincere respect alone, that said, there are traces of the Davidson.

==> www.abovetopsecret.com...

Tacitus, he does mention Jesus and his movement in a side remark, probable overlooked by the state editors. For as handy for the Romans as it is, all copies and all traces the volume of his work collecting the history of the time of Jesus' «ministry», is lost, possibly forever, and probably in an attempt at sweeping the good lord under the carpet, putting him under Damnatio Memoriae.

Romans did it, Egyptians did it, Babylonians, Greeks, unwanted dissidents and grass root freedom fighters were silenced and murdered and every trace of them was wiped off the face of the Earth. They'd burn every book and piece of wood carrying any reminders of the subject. They'd kill the family, colleagues, friends, fans, independent writers and commenters, they'd burn the lot. They'd kill the cat, burn the books. Jesus somehow made it past that valley of the shadow of death. You can kill a man, but can't kill an idea, and the good lord even survived certain death.