FOX News: Transgender girl drops class after 200 protest for and against her.

a reply to: JadeStar

Thanks for the help to you and Deaf alien (whose post has the link).

originally posted by: Grambler
a reply to: JadeStar

Thanks for the help to you and Deaf alien (whose post has the link).

Thank you, I am about halfway through with the paper. It is an interesting study so far however, I have a few quick observations.

Maybe it is because I used to reading astrophysics papers but I was kind of looking for more in terms of how they arrived at some of the choices they made regarding the control group, accounting for potential false positives. i.e.: they mention arrests and convictions but do not mention how many if any were exonerated. One would expect some level of exoneration in a large enough sample. Perhaps not in the focus (N=324) in this case but certainly in the control group which is 10 times larger (N=3,240).

Either that or the Swedish policing and justice system is vastly more accurate and efficient than ours in America. I do know that Sweden's crime rate is very low compared to the US and this difference is even more stark with regards to violent crime.

Also the mentions of missing data are to be expected but how they normalize for that kinda raises an eyebrow.

Lastly the study seems to have 60/40 split of males to females yet Sweden's population is 48% male, 52% female.

However seeing as how there is still some question as to whether Lila truly is transgender it might be completely irrelevant if we find later find out that s/he isn't.

Nonetheless it is an interesting study and one which I will look into further. That said, I have already seen several potential problems with a study spanning that long a period of time though.

I've had a look as well and already things are catching my eye. Disclaimer:I'm no scientist or statistician but there are a lot of things this study concludes but doesn't really provide enough raw data for any different interpretation.

There needs to be far more granularity on the ages of the study subjects at the time of SRS (for my own curiosity) and a look at the "crimes" on a per year basis over the range of the study.

Transsexual individuals were at increased risk of being convicted for any crime or violent crime after sex reassignment this was, however, only significant in the group who underwent sex reassignment before 1989.

So when were the bulk of these crimes recorded? Did I miss that? The study started in 1973 and the increased risk was only for those having SRS before 1989 which would lead me to believe the older individuals are over represented or the majority of the recorded crimes happened earlier in the study? Don't know?

On Morbidity:

Other facets to consider are first that this study reflects the outcome of psychiatric and somatic treatment for transsexualism provided in Sweden during the 1970s and 1980s. Since then, treatment has evolved with improved sex reassignment surgery, refined hormonal treatment and more attention to psychosocial care that might have improved the outcome

- Might have? Something something SHERLOCK! People will do a lot when they are desperate.

Okay, they've twice pointed out the increased risk for study subjects with SRS before 1989 and then go on to add a caveat in the study on morbidity that they were literally collecting data for this aspect of the paper from the dark ages. It is nice to have a study span such a large number of years but not so much the first half of it has become so stale to become nearly irrelevant.

Any criminal conviction during follow-up was counted; specifically, violent crime was defined as homicide and attempted homicide, aggravated assault and assault, robbery, threatening behaviour, harassment, arson, or any sexual offense

Do we know what Sweden considers threatening behavior or harassment? Would prostitution and sex work fall under sexual offense? How about a nasty post on Facebook? Posting revenge porn. Unknown?

In this study, male-to-female individuals had a higher risk for criminal convictions compared to female controls but not compared to male controls.This suggests that the sex reassignment procedure neither increased nor decreased the risk for criminal offending in male-to-females. By contrast, female-to-males were at a higher risk for criminal convictions compared to female controls and did not differ from male controls, which suggests increased crime proneness in female-to-males after sex reassignment.

Ok then, criminals be criminals. Was a decrease in crime anticipated or something? For MtF transsexuals,was SRS suddenly going to make people happy shiny law abiding citizens over if they didn't have SRS? I'm not getting the point or there isn't one? (Unless you'reFtM)

It is therefore important to note that the current study is only informative with respect to transsexuals persons health after sex reassignment; no inferences can be drawn as to the effectiveness of sex reassignment as a treatment for transsexualism. In other words, the results should not be interpreted such as sex reassignment per se increases morbidity and mortality. Things might have been even worse without sex reassignment. (Ya think?) As an analogy, similar studies have found increased somatic morbidity, suicide rate, and overall mortality for patients treated for bipolar disorder and schizophrenia

Alright then. This was interesting and I appreciate the opportunity to review it but it is hardly some scathing condemnation of transsexual populations or anything really anyone familiar with this subject hadn't heard or didn't know. Was it posted out of genuine curiosity and interest in our feedback or was it intended to be antagonistic or somehow anti-trans?

Don't know? Just asking, not accusing and willing to discuss.



Edit to add: Also, does the surveillance state aspect in all this bother anybody but me? So much data on so many things with no consent required because it's all part of the collection of routine information that is supposedly anonymous, but it really isn't. Also, in thinking about this more, I'm not sure the conclusions from this study mean a dang thing? Is this a case of publish or die, especially after ongoing for so long. Dunno?

are we even still talking about the event this thread was started to discuss????? all i see is people bickering and not discussing the topic but the politics of the topic. i don't think most people read this thread for the politics but to discuss the event. and i for one think this kid is a fraud. i would like to read other peoples opinions on this and not pages of scientific research about what makes trans people trans people. start a different thread for that.

a reply to: Rabb420

and i for one think this kid is a fraud.

I am on the other side but yes posters here in this thread has convinced me to really doubt him.

i would like to read other peoples opinions on this and not pages of scientific research about what makes trans people trans people. start a different thread for that.

Yes. We have discussed that. I myself even got convinced by the other side. I am not too sure about this kid.

a reply to: Deaf Alien

i don't want this to in anyway be construed as anti trans or anything but i think this kid is just trying to cash in. i mean he compares his struggle to that of black people in the civil rights era and that's just BS. they are 2 completely different things.and like i said in a previous comment the only action he seems to have taken to be what he feels he is is to throw on a wig and a skirt he doesn't even bother to do anything about his organ that is blatantly visible through his skirt and that's just the one red flag to me. i don't want to seem like im dwelling on his visible member but i haven't seen anyone else discuss that. i actually know a couple trans people and they make sure to ahem "tuck it back" lol. but as i said i think this kid is just trying to cash in on this current trend (not saying its a phase the country is going through but couldn't think of a better way to word it). and then we have the fact that all the kids in this situation is a minor and honestly if one of those girls was my daughter i wouldn't want her to be put in situation that makes her uncomfortable. he should accept the private facilities provided to him for the time being until he graduates or turns 18 and more is done about his situation ( i understand that his own private changing room singles him out but why cant he understand that the other girls are uncomfortable with him changing in the same room as them because i don't think he would be discreet about his member around them anyway. another issue that stacks with this is the fact that he is still attracted to women( i could be wrong) if that's the case then he should be definitely using the private facilities( and no i don't think the same goes for homosexual people) but it stands that this is an issue involving minors and they are doing the best they can to alleviate the situation and make everyone as comfortable as possible in the time being.

originally posted by: EKron



On Morbidity:
Might have? Something something SHERLOCK! People will do a lot when they are desperate.

Okay, they've twice pointed out the increased risk for study subjects with SRS before 1989 and then go on to add a caveat in the study on morbidity that they were literally collecting data for this aspect of the paper from the dark ages. It is nice to have a study span such a large number of years but not so much the first half of it has become so stale to become nearly irrelevant.

Everything yoou said is valid here. however, I think that most people would agree that the morbidity for trans people would still be higher than a person who is not (cis person I hope that is the term). This could be from things like stress or suicide because they were mistreated, so it definitely wouldn't be the trans persons fault.

Do we know what Sweden considers threatening behavior or harassment? Would prostitution and sex work fall under sexual offense? How about a nasty post on Facebook? Posting revenge porn. Unknown?

I do not know that. The point they were making is that trans people committed crime at the levels of non-trans males, not that they were worse. Obviously I can't be sure, but I would think the fact they specifically say commit violent crime at the same level would imply just that, that the level of violence committed is akin to males.

Ok then, criminals be criminals. Was a decrease in crime anticipated or something? For MtF transsexuals,was SRS suddenly going to make people happy shiny law abiding citizens over if they didn't have SRS? I'm not getting the point or there isn't one? (Unless you'reFtM)

My point was originally that I was agreeing we shouldn't stereotype people, but why were the people stereotyping the males in the lockerroom with Lila as violent? This study shws that after the surgery, the propensity for violence is the same as males. So my question was is it not fair then for females to view trans people as just as violent as males, therefore they may be justified in not wanting t share lockerrooms/restrooms with them?

Alright then. This was interesting and I appreciate the opportunity to review it but it is hardly some scathing condemnation of transsexual populations or anything really anyone familiar with this subject hadn't heard or didn't know. Was it posted out of genuine curiosity and interest in our feedback or was it intended to be antagonistic or somehow anti-trans?

Don't know? Just asking, not accusing and willing to discuss.

I agree with you on the morbidity issue. The problem with the study was that the control was non trans male and females. The control should have been pre surgery trans. I agree with you in that I don't see how it can adress morbidity as such.

However, I think the question of violence being equal to a non trans male still seems relevant. The study is showing in other words that someone who has transitioned from mae to female is just as likely to be violent as a male. Not more likely. So if Lila or her supporters can claim she is scared to be with the males because of violence, can't the girls in the lockeroom make the same argument about Lila? That is the danger of stereotyping, it works both ways.

Edit to add: Also, does the surveillance state aspect in all this bother anybody but me? So much data on so many things with no consent required because it's all part of the collection of routine information that is supposedly anonymous, but it really isn't. Also, in thinking about this more, I'm not sure the conclusions from this study mean a dang thing? Is this a case of publish or die, especially after ongoing for so long. Dunno?

I will have to look into the surveillance aspect of it. As for the rest, I think long term studies are important. This was one of the only ones I could find. This is an area which no doubt much more research is needed.

originally posted by: Grambler



However, I think the question of violence being equal to a non trans male still seems relevant. The study is showing in other words that someone who has transitioned from mae to female is just as likely to be violent as a male. Not more likely. So if Lila or her supporters can claim she is scared to be with the males because of violence, can't the girls in the lockeroom make the same argument about Lila? That is the danger of stereotyping, it works both ways.

I think you are missing something in Lila's specific situation. Lila is saying that she has ALREADY been experiencing bullying and violence from the male students at her school. She fears the violence will only escalate now that she has come out as a transgender person, and the boys locker room is the perfect place for such violence.

As far as I know, there has been no history of violence from Lila towards any of the female students in the school. I believe the girls just feel "uncomfortable" at having someone in their locker room that has a penis. I don't believe there has been any talk of them fearing violence from Lila.

a reply to: kaylaluv

I wondered if there were specific threats made. I didn't see that. Do you have a link where she mentions these?

If that is the case, then these boys should be punished. The point remains though that the general argument being made was that trans people would not be safe in male facilities. This stereotyping works both ways though, and shouldn't non trans women be allowed to make the same claims?

originally posted by: Grambler
a reply to: kaylaluv

I wondered if there were specific threats made. I didn't see that. Do you have a link where she mentions these?

If that is the case, then these boys should be punished. The point remains though that the general argument being made was that trans people would not be safe in male facilities. This stereotyping works both ways though, and shouldn't non trans women be allowed to make the same claims?

No real details of any kind have come out.

But, when he/she was out as a feminine gay male - - - do you honestly belief there was no abuse in the boys locker room?

originally posted by: Rabb420
i for one think this kid is a fraud.

The Transgenders discussing in this thread have questioned that as well.

a reply to: Annee

Again this is stereotyping. Am I sure she was abused? Not at all. Why would you assume this?

originally posted by: Grambler
a reply to: Annee

Again this is stereotyping. Am I sure she was abused? Not at all. Why would you assume this?

Stereotyping? I do not call that stereotyping.

There is factual history for more then assumption on how feminine gays are treated in high school.

It would be a stretch to assume there hasn't been abuse.

a reply to: Annee
I would interested to see the stats that show there is a better than not chance that a gay person would physically abused in high school.

Even if that is true shouldn't one of the lessons we should strive to learn from the trans community is that it is dangerous to label people?

And don't women have the right to assume that trans people are just as violent as men based on the study I linked?

originally posted by: Grambler
a reply to: Annee
I would interested to see the stats that show there is a better than not chance that a gay person would physically abused in high school.

Even if that is true shouldn't one of the lessons we should strive to learn from the trans community is that it is dangerous to label people?

And don't women have the right to assume that trans people are just as violent as men based on the study I linked?

I think its ignorant and naive to take the position there is no abuse to a feminine gay in the boys locker room.

Labels define - - - its people who put them in categories of good and bad.

originally posted by: Rabb420
i don't want this to in anyway be construed as anti trans or anything but i think this kid is just trying to cash in. i mean he compares his struggle to that of black people in the civil rights era and that's just BS. they are 2 completely different things.and like i said in a previous comment the only action he seems to have taken to be what he feels he is is to throw on a wig and a skirt he doesn't even bother to do anything about his organ that is blatantly visible through his skirt and that's just the one red flag to me. i don't want to seem like im dwelling on his visible member but i haven't seen anyone else discuss that. i actually know a couple trans people and they make sure to ahem "tuck it back" lol.

Believe me, it has been discussed. I'm on-board about what you're saying above and with most of your other comments as well. I don't think you were being anti trans. I know when threads get this long it is hard to start from the beginning especially one like this that took a nasty turn, had multiple warnings from the mods, one member's meltdown and been closed for a cooling off period.

The story and video in the OP is dripping with red flags which the transfolk have also pointed out and have been in agreement that the privacy and comfort of the girls really takes precedence over Lila's "right" to be in their safe space with, if the video is any indication, a penis that won't be kept discrete.

In this day and age, the polite and PC thing to do is to accept people as they want to be accepted so starting out, a lot of folks gave Lila the benefit of the doubt. After the discussion and further consideration, even the trans* people are questioning if she is trans. There are just too many things not known about this situation but it does seem highly questionable for many reasons.

Oh, sorry you aren't interested in the reasons of "what makes trans people trans people". I haven't offered any reasons for this beyond my own experience but have discussed my history so that others might get more of an understanding of what some of us are like and see if any of that can be related to Lila. A few folks have found it informative. I find talking about it repetitive but if it can help people to learn things, then it's worth it.

a reply to: Annee

Do gays get physically abused in male lockerooms? Absolutely and that is terrible.

You claimed you assumed Lila had been physically abused based on the factual history of gays being abused in male locker rooms. That would imply that more than half of gays in this situation would have been physically abused. I am skeptical of this,which is why I would like you to provide a source for that.

Another thing. If boys in locker rooms are so abusive to lbgt community, then you would agree that a female to male trans should not be allowed to use the male locker rooms for safety.

a reply to: EKron

I'm not terribly PC most of the time but I didn't want to start discussing that I'm fairly convinced this person is ful of it. I'm about 98% sure this whole thing is attention whoring, but at the same time that doesn't really change the story as it relates to a situation where the person is legitimate.

originally posted by: Grambler
The point they were making is that trans people committed crime at the levels of non-trans males, not that they were worse. Obviously I can't be sure, but I would think the fact they specifically say commit violent crime at the same level would imply just that, that the level of violence committed is akin to males.

I do find this result from the study curious. I have nothing to refute it with but the trans people I have known, which admittedly is very few, have all been gentle, sensitive and caring people. I cannot imagine someone like myself or Jade ever being violent or coming out on the good side of a violent confrontation. In my initial comments about this study was one of my criticisms was no breakdown by age when the subjects presented for treatment or obtained SRS. Only an average, min and max were given. This is significant to know if they are in the early or late transition group. The study also doesn't say who were the victims of this trans violence or is there some implication being made that this is trans violence against natal women? Such an allegedly important long-term study shouldn't be so damned vague and short on detail.

My point was originally that I was agreeing we shouldn't stereotype people, but why were the people stereotyping the males in the locker room with Lila as violent? This study shows that after the surgery, the propensity for violence is the same as males. So my question was is it not fair then for females to view trans people as just as violent as males, therefore they may be justified in not wanting t share locker rooms/restrooms with them?

I have no experience or any idea about male locker room violence, I was lucky enough to stay the hell out of there so like everyone else, can only make assumptions based on stereotypes. BUT, as someone that has been on the receiving end of violence multiple times for being queer, weird, feminine, girlish and assumed to be gay, this does happen and paints a huge target on your back. Without whining or sounding like a poor little snowflake victim here, all the times I was beaten up were off-campus except for once in the 5th grade.

It would be likely if Lila was all out and proud about being gay before picking up on the trans thing, he probably did at least get harassed and teased in the boys locker room but violence should have been reported and dealt with.

School didn't used to start until after Labor Day but I assume has only just started there and Lila made her first appearance with the new school year and has not ventured into the boys locker room in a skirt. Why (s)he would have thought the girls locker room was an alternative was being insensitive and oppressive and if (s)he truly felt like a girl would have understood this.

a reply to: Grambler

BTW --- having my own opinion, does not always mean I have to argue against someone else's.

I can express my personal opinion --- and leave it at that.

I try to avoid "he said, she said" circular.