FOX News: Transgender girl drops class after 200 protest for and against her.

originally posted by: WhiteHat
And how in the god's name can we start making transitions to a five y/o kid? Based on what kind of gender awareness?

Addressed above. Children know what they are. Didn't you? If a boy is insistent and persistent, wants to wear a pink tutu and feels and acts like a girl, unless parents want to deal with an unhappy, angry and resentful child, they'd best let him explore being a her. Ask me, I know all about this. This isn't and shouldn't be something done willy nilly without professional evaluation and involvement. Jade can tell you more about this than I can. She transitioned at 7. If that would have been a thing in the 1960's, I would have done exactly the same.

All those science reports and links are meant to make this issue look set in stone; I mean, the brain is female so to hell with the body and all his complex functions, let's modify it to fit the image in the head. But maybe, just maybe is not so set in stone, and maybe there is a way to learn to live with it? Learn to be the gender the body was born with?

For children with both extreme gender atypical behavior that are also gender dysphoric, there simply is no way "to live with it". Those that can't usually end their own lives. Just as conversion therapy to make gay people heterosexual has proven to be ineffective and psychologically damaging, everything in the book has been tried to make trans people not be and unilaterally has been completely unsuccessful.

This is why most people tend to believe that being transgender is a mental disorder, specifically an identity disorder. The causes may be different, but the effects are strikingly similar.

Everyone is different and people's lives can be messy. Gender Dysphoria was until recently called Gender Identity Disorder but it is a real thing no matter what you call it. There are similarities to other conditions and it is common to assume Gender Dysphoria belongs to one of them but it is its own unique and separate syndrome, symptomology and standards of therapeutic care.

I have never felt like I had any sort of disorder or crisis, been mentally ill or that there was ever anything wrong or broken about my mind although at one time, other people tried to tell me so. FWIW, I have never had therapy or counseling other than for evaluative purposes because mentally I am and always have been just fine. My internal knowledge or sense of self of being a boy or a girl has been consistent and unwavering through my entire life as has been my personality and behavior. The social role I was supposed to be living simply didn't go with anything about me and once that was resolved in my late teens, the anatomy thing became even more detestable, untenable, out of place and ridiculous.

I have nothing against trans people, except the fact that they think the world should revolve around them, like this boy in the OP.

Like noted, everyone is different. The last thing in the world I ever wanted was for anyone to know I hadn't been born female or that I was in any way different or demanded anything special more than anyone else. I don't identify as trans anything and have lived well over forty years as a "normal" woman blended into "normal" society without anyone knowing my history. There is no confusion or delusion in my life or any more drama than any others. I have been successful, happy and productive and lived a rather average healthy life.

Once again, this information has been given not to talk about me but to talk about the lives and feelings of people like me so that others may gain a better perspective on those that might be trying to address and work through these thing like the person in the OP's story.

With the journalistic inadequacies beyond the "ohmygerd, transthings" sensationalism in the linked story and video, I have a lot of questions and issues with this whole thing myself. Where's the parents? Where's the meeting with the school? Are professionals involved? Somebody wrote that Lila thought she was gay but didn't know there was such a thing as trans. In this day and age, I can hardly buy that.

Also keep in mind that "transgender" covers a broad spectrum of gender diversity and expression and doesn't necessarily mean someone will pursue any sort of medical intervention or desires changing sex or that they will even socially transition. Those that do transition and undergo SRS, the transsexuals, make up a very small part of the transgender demographic and a statistically insignificant number of the general population. We can only speculate on Lila's intention but it does seem rude and insensitive to the feelings and comfort of others to thrust her period of self-discovery, whatever that may turn out to be, on her female classmates.

There is no doubt from the outside looking in, all this does seem a bit ridiculous and off the rails but from the experiences and stories shared by JadeStar, myself and others, it should be clear that things from the inside looking out can be monumental issues of mental health, happiness and survival. Regardless if you believe this is a mental problem or a sociological problem, it is a problem and probably crucial and of great importance to the person involved.

originally posted by: kaylaluv
a reply to: poncho1982

But they've tried giving testosterone shots to gay men and transgender females. It didn't work. If it were that easy, don't you think it would be the standard procedure today?

If they've already been convinced they're a woman inside their mind, it won't work. That's my point.

originally posted by: WhiteHat
a reply to: poncho1982

Well, thank you for a first hand experience also.
This is what I am afraid of, all those kids with parents so ready to irreversible destroy their life.
Until puberty, when the right hormones kick in is all a theory.
I say let the kid be what he is, gently try to guide him on the right direction and only if the hormones and sexual maturity don't do their job conclude that something is wrong.

Exactly.

No way should a child be subjected to anything like that until adulthood.

originally posted by: WhiteHat
a reply to: JadeStar

Why single me out? Ekron, Cuervo, and about 8 other ATS members who are transgender have also done the same?

I think you're singled yourself out.
This OP is about an transgender related incident in a school, and most of us try to talk about that.
Look again at this, right in the OP:

I was lucky in that I had my family's support and other than one objection which went away after meeting my parents and I, my schools support as well. That is why I was able to focus on my studies.
Unfortunately her story is different than mine. Instead of going to college she dropped out and does online sex work via webcam after struggling to find a regular job that paid well enough to fund her transition.

and at this:

First of all I want to apologize to the dozen or so transgender people who are out on ATS as well as those who are not out as well as their families and loved ones who may read this thread. I did not think it would become the tire fire it has become at times.

Why is this your responsibility? Not because you single yourself out?

No.

Because if you hadn't noticed, I wrote the OP and thus feel somewhat responsible for what at times has been a very nasty trainwreck of a thread (mostly without my involvement) which some transgender people who have been traumatized by bigotry or violence or their families and people who love them might come across at some point in the future.

I took responsibility for a problem I felt might not have become a big one had I not had to be out all day unable to really respond or interact.

I take responsibility for threads I create. I was just trying to be a good ATSizen.Sorry for caring I guess.

a reply to: poncho1982

No way should a child be subjected to anything like that until adulthood.

I never understood why some people think this way. Why this thought process?

I have asked this question before and I will ask again. Who are doing that? And if they are actually doing that then that's child abuse and they should be sent to prison.

originally posted by: Deaf Alien
a reply to: poncho1982

No way should a child be subjected to anything like that until adulthood.

I never understood why some people think this way. Why this thought process?

I have asked this question before and I will ask again. Who are doing that? And if they are actually doing that then that's child abuse and they should be sent to prison.

JadeStar said it herself. She took blockers from the age of 12.

originally posted by: JadeStar

The best way to tell is to talk with their family, their close friends, interview people who have known them intimately in some way and look at their history.

I mentioned a while back that there has been no mention of Lila's parents. None at all that I can find.

As you say, this story lacks information. It lacks a LOT of information.

------------

Which does not in anyway invalidate the information you are providing from personal experience what it is to be Transgender.

a reply to: Annee

Which does not in anyway invalidate the information you are providing from personal experience what it is to be Transgender.

Yes I am sure the other side have learned a lot. What's funny is that I have learned a lot from the other side on this issue. I do understand their position and I do actually agree.

I am not too sure about this Lila fella.

originally posted by: WhiteHat
a reply to: poncho1982

Well, thank you for a first hand experience also.
This is what I am afraid of, all those kids with parents so ready to irreversible destroy their life.
Until puberty, when the right hormones kick in is all a theory.
I say let the kid be what he is, gently try to guide him on the right direction and only if the hormones and sexual maturity don't do their job conclude that something is wrong.

What would destroy many transgirls lives or at least make them a lot more costly and difficult would be going through puberty as a male and having a bunch of things which cost money to have eliminated or which can't currently be eliminated so that they could blend in as normal females.

Prevention is far better than that. Stopping t-blockers has no adverse effects if for some reason the child decides they want to develop a male body.

No amount testosterone would ever have changed my brain to the point that I'd have pretended to be a man.

a reply to: poncho1982

JadeStar said it herself. She took blockers from the age of 12.

So it was forced on her?

originally posted by: WhiteHat
a reply to: JadeStar

The scientific method is the best tool available separate fact from fiction and know anything about anything in the environment, causes etc and that is exactly what has been done.

Give me a few days and I will open a thread on the subject of science. Than maybe we can talk in detail about it.

There's nothing to talk about or debate any more than talking about whether the earth is actually flat. There's no better way to know something with any sort of degree of certainty than through science and the scientific method.

People can believe what they like, feel what they like but beliefs are not facts. Before science, superstition ruled the day. The scientific method may not be perfect but it is far better than anything we've come up with and usually correct because it is self correcting. (unlike beliefs which often are self-reinforcing).

a reply to: Bayne
The chicken or the egg?

Recent research indicates our brain functioning and structure changes over time dependent on many factors, only some of which are known. As you think, so shall you be.
psychology.about.com...

Has a study ever been done to compare dog brains to those of people with zoanthropy? Could be interesting...

a reply to: JadeStar

There's nothing to talk about any more than talking about whether the earth is actually flat.

You are wrong. Earth is more of a torus:

originally posted by: OpenMindedRealist
a reply to: Bayne
The chicken or the egg?

Recent research indicates our brain functioning and structure changes over time dependent on many factors, only some of which are known. As you think, so shall you be.
psychology.about.com...

Neuroplasticity has nothing to do with the studies which I linked. It was ruled out. FYI: You'd know that if you bothered reading them.

Has a study ever been done to compare dog brains to those of people with zoanthropy? Could be interesting...

Yes. They're brains structure is not canine. They're human.

a reply to: OpenMindedRealist

Even people who were raised by non-human animals (wolves being the famous ones but there's been quite a few different examples) and so when found behaved like those animals and saw themselves as such have been quite successfully helped to see themselves as people.

You ignored this part. Why?

originally posted by: Deaf Alien
a reply to: poncho1982

JadeStar said it herself. She took blockers from the age of 12.

So it was forced on her?

No, when I was made aware of them I couldn't wait to start them.

I think I speak for everyone when I say input from transgender members is appreciated and uniquely enlightening.

That being said...
JadeStar and Ekron, you must realize your testimonials are bound to contain biases and cannot be considered empirical evidence of anything. Any competent psychologist would scoff at the suggestion that the transgender experience can be understood through one person's account.

a reply to: JadeStar
Why was it 'ruled out?' Because someone was uncomfortable with that idea?

If you found a study comparing the brians of people with zoanthropy to the brains of animals, please link it. Playing dumb doesn't really work toward your scholarly persona by the way.

a reply to: Deaf Alien
Because it's irrelevant?

originally posted by: poncho1982

originally posted by: Deaf Alien
a reply to: poncho1982

No way should a child be subjected to anything like that until adulthood.

I never understood why some people think this way. Why this thought process?

I have asked this question before and I will ask again. Who are doing that? And if they are actually doing that then that's child abuse and they should be sent to prison.

JadeStar said it herself. She took blockers from the age of 12.

Yes. By choice after having been thoroughly evaluated psychologically for years previously (you know so they knew it wasn't "just a phase").

I was under very good medical supervision and my endocrinologist was always checking my levels and stuff to make sure I was healthy. Same thing when I started estrogen.