FOX News: Transgender girl drops class after 200 protest for and against her.

a reply to: WhiteHat

I dont think we are really talking about Lila. We are discussing just in general.

As I and JadeStar and others mentioned we have serious doubts about Lila.

This is just a general education.

Posters in this thread had made me doubt the Lila's claims.

a reply to: Deaf Alien
Then maybe we can agree that exactly people like Lila who mock a real condition for their own twisted agenda make this whole topic so hard to accept for regular people? And the tendency to believe that trans people have in fact a mental problem might have some real base? Even if the science shows different?


And another question: why people who deal with this problem for real don't expose the frauds, instead of covering them under the same political correct umbrella? Then wonder why people are suspicious?
What was in fact the point of this whole thread?

originally posted by: WhiteHat
a reply to: JadeStar

Let me put it other way. A woman knows she is a woman at first by seeing her body as compared with other children's body or with her parents; she get's it very early that she's more like mom and not like dad.

Many transgender people conclude they are not their body's sex based on the same thing. But instead of me looking at my sisters and brother, mom and dad and me feeling I was like my dad or brother I would look at my mom and sisters and feel like I was like them.

The problem then is "why does my body not look like theirs? what is this thing? why do I have it? why are people saying I have to stand to pee? i'm not a boy."

So for you you looked at your body and were comfortable.

For me my body did not match who I was in side as a little girl.

As I got older I increasingly became more acutely aware of my "alien" body. I felt "I do not belong here. I am very uncomfortable."

It has to be the absolute worst feeling in the world. It's almost indescribable to people who have not gone through it.

All of you who are the lucky 99.5% to not be born this way, count yourself lucky.

All through this I never thought: "I wish I was a normal boy."

Instead I'd pray to God every night that I would wake up a normal girl.

Then she start feeling her body; the hormonal responses, the growth of breasts, the monthly period, the absence of hair on her face and so on
No matter how much she feels like a boy she can feel her body, and her body tells her ( and everyone else) what she is.

Yes puberty.

For me I experienced the same except for the monthly period.

My parents and I after years of psychological evaluation had me put on medicine which prevented me from producing male levels of testosterone which is what causes a male to go through male puberty i.e.: facial hair, voice deepening, muscular development, bone growth and male type body frame, etc.

I was spared that when I took the blockers at 12. It bought me an extra two years to think about a life changing decision: estrogen therapy and female puberty, breasts and other bodily development similar to what you went through.

Then later on the burning desire to become a mother, the feeling of a child in her womb, the milk accumulated in her breast, the birth giving and so on.

I've started to get the desire to become a mother and my longtime boyfriend (high school sweetheart) and I have talked about adoption. I've also had milk accumulate in my breast and I have lactated. I have been asked about my desire to have children before in other threads and if there were a way that I could I would do everything to start saving for whatever it would cost. It saddens me deeply if I think too long that I may never have the experience of feeling a baby inside me, hearing its heart beat, feeling it kick, and then seeing it for the first time after months of being intimately aware of its own little personality while it lived inside me.

I better stop, i've had to use a couple of tissues already, and i want to finish up my response to your very very good questions.

Even her orgasm is different from a man.

As are mine. I had one of the best surgeons in the world conduct an 8 hour surgery and my parents parted with the cost of a luxury car for that to be the case but the important part is I am happy and function normally sexually.

After the first couple of times I had sex after corrective surgery I asked my sisters what their orgasms were like and they matched what I experienced.

But those are my family so I wanted to double check… (ever the scientist)

I did so by also comparing notes with my best friend and other women and keep in mind these women do not know I was born any different and so I know that my orgasms (and everything leading up to and after them) are about the same as females born with vaginas rather than surgically corrected as I was.

Then again, how can someone deny and ignore all these real things and trust a fantasy existing only in its head?
I will quote that again:

The pro-transgender advocates do not want to know, said McHugh, that studies show between 70% and 80% of children who express transgender feelings “spontaneously lose those feelings” over time. Also, for those who had sexual reassignment surgery, most said they were “satisfied” with the operation “but their subsequent psycho-social adjustments were no better than those who didn’t have the surgery.”

That guys methodology, research and credibility among the majority of scientists in the field have is not every good and he has cherry picked his "data" from one study which supported his hypothesis, ignoring other more extensive studies opposite conclusions.

That's why I didn't even bother commenting on him. He's not considered any sort of authority at this point.

And how in the god's name can we start making transitions to a five y/o kid? Based on what kind of gender awareness?

Its but one experience but I and my parents addressed this here in this thread.

All those science reports and links are meant to make this issue look set in stone; I mean, the brain is female so to hell with the body and all his complex functions, let's modify it to fit the image in the head. But maybe, just maybe is not so set in stone, and maybe there is a way to learn to live with it? Learn to be the gender the body was born with? especially at the age of five.

But it is set in stone and attempts to make people born this way "comfortable and accepting of their sexual anatomy from birth" have resulted in many of these people badly damaged psychologically and suicidal often with tragic circumstances.

I do know that I myself considered suicide if I had to go through male puberty. I am certain I would not be talking to you today.

I don't know, and honestly I could never know what goes into a trans person head. I'm just wondering.

It's good to wonder and ask questions. That's the only way to learn and you asked some great questions. I am also open to any other questions you may have. The only reason I revealed my personal history to ATS.

This is why most people tend to believe that being transgender is a mental disorder, specifically an identity disorder. The causes may be different, but the effects are strikingly similar.

Sometimes things which initially look the same have vastly different causes. That was the conclusion when they found that your brain and my brain are pretty much the same.

Mental disorders are an actual malfunction in the workings of the brain.

For people born like me our brains are work normally, the problem is the body they were born into.

And that scientific fact is why the American Psychiatric and American Psychological organizations as well as others internationally have repeatedly stated that this is not a mental,cognitive disorder though the way people born this way are treated can negatively impact them and lead to actual mental disorders.

My brain in your body would not be viewed as abnormal. Yours in a male body would be viewed as abnormal but both of ours would function normally without anything resembling a mental illness.

Conclusion:

The perfect solution would be a brain transplant between those who are female to male and male to female transgender people.

Until that perfect solution perhaps a little more compassion and understanding for people unfortunate enough to be born this way just as there would be for anyone born with a rare but treatable birth defect would help.

originally posted by: WhiteHat
a reply to: Deaf Alien
And another question: why people who deal with this problem for real don't expose the frauds, instead of covering them under the same political correct umbrella?

They do.

a reply to: WhiteHat

Then maybe we can agree that exactly people like Lila who mock a real condition for their own twisted agenda make this whole topic so hard to accept for regular people?

Yes I have stated as such.

It's like what they say... one bad apple spoils the whole bunch.

why people who deal with this problem for real don't expose the frauds, instead of covering them under the same political correct umbrella?

Actually if you haven't read JadeStar said she had doubts about Lila.

a reply to: JadeStar

So indeed your case seems special and with no obvious alternative other than what you did.
It is very rare even among transgenders.
But is not the case in your OP.
As you saw from people's links there are many who were mislead and regret it later, and a lot who ride the trend for their own purposes. How we tell the true ones from the frauds? It's infuriating to give sympaty to someone who is actually faking it.
Still...
I cannot ignore the study who shows that 70-80% of kids lose the trans feelings with time, even if the man who talked about it is not reliable for you.

I was spared that when I took the blockers at 12. It bought me an extra two years to think about a life changing decision: estrogen therapy and female puberty, breast and other bodily development similar to what you went through.

Did you ever wandered that maybe if you waited for the male puberty the things were different?
Never mind, is not relevant anymore. I understand what you're saying.

Like I said, this thread was about Lila and the issues it created at school, not about you. It was never my intention to doubt you.
My opinion is that no matter what problem people have, and how ignorant other people are about that problem, they should always be the first to take responsibility for it. Like someone said, only after you show respect for others you can ask respect from others.

a reply to: WhiteHat

Well, if you look at the science, you could see how it all happens. If you don't want to go by science, then you'll have to take the personal stories of the OP and other transgender/transsexual people on this site who have all chimed in.

Your choice.

a reply to: WhiteHat

How we tell the true ones from the frauds?

I would think that would be so obvious.

a reply to: kaylaluv

The science also say that addictions are in the genes, yet many people get out of it.
Science can discover tomorrow something that completely refutes today's theory, that's the nature of it. Once science thought that homosexuality is a disease and applied electric shocks to people, and today they make gender swaps. Who knows what they will do tomorrow? I have my reservation about science.
To really cover and understand a subject science is not enough; the human element, the environment, the causes, all must be taken into account.

a reply to: WhiteHat

The science also say that addictions are in the genes, yet many people get out of it.

Addictions are destructive. And no people don't get out of it.

As to the rest of your post the only thing I can agree with is the environment cause.

originally posted by: WhiteHat
a reply to: JadeStar

So indeed your case seems special and with no obvious alternative other than what you did.
It is very rare even among transponders.

The problem is transgender people (proper plural) are actually a bunch of different sub groups combined under one umbrella I feel is way too broad but political correctness rules the day in politics so don't get me started on that because what I have to say isn't politically correct among certain subgroups.

That said, you'd find that my cases is more common than most people would guess.

Have you watched the series "All About Jazz" on TLC? Her story and life is not that unlike mine at her age (14).

But is not the case in your OP.
As you saw from people's links there are many who were mislead and regret it later, and a lot who ride the trend for their own purposes. How we tell the true ones from the frauds? It's infuriating to give sympaty to someone who is actually faking it.

The best way to tell is to talk with their family, their close friends, interview people who have known them intimately in some way and look at their history.

This stuff manifests itself fairly early even if a person doesn't transition to living as their preferred gender until later in life.

If someone is legit then someone is bound to have known about them for years.

When the Caitlyn Jenner story broke many in the trans community thought she might be fake until the world heard from her ex-wife.

I cannot ignore the study who shows that 70-80% of kids lose the trans feelings with time, even if the man who talked about it is not reliable for you.

I can ignore it when no one of note in the field gives it much credibility because most studies have come to the opposite conclusion with a larger sample. When new better data supersedes an old and flawed study you accept the new data.

Of course there are those on ATS who still hold onto photos from the Viking missions to Mars as proof there is a face and pyramids there despite much higher resolution imagery.

People who hold up that study as anything authoritative are the equivalent whether they know its outdated and better is available not.

I was spared that when I took the blockers at 12. It bought me an extra two years to think about a life changing decision: estrogen therapy and female puberty, breast and other bodily development similar to what you went through.

Did you ever wandered that maybe if you waited for the male puberty the things were different?
Never mind, is not relevant anymore. I understand what you're saying.

I didn't. I feared male puberty to the point of having nightmares about it.

Like I said, this thread was about Lila and the issues it created at school, not about you. It was never my intention to doubt you.

Thank you.

My opinion is that no matter what problem people have, and how ignorant other people are about that problem, they should always be the first to take responsibility for it. Like someone said, only after you show respect for others you can ask respect from others.

Anyone who has a problem with something or someone they don't understand also has a responsibility to educate themselves rather than just react wildly as people in Salem, Mass during the witch hunts.

Likewise….

Any transgender woman who does not respect the concerns and feelings of other women and girls either has not socialized as one or may not be one. End of story. This doesn't mean she should put theirs above her own concerns for safety but she should be willing to communicate her concerns better, compromise and help mend any damaged feelings.

I have to be careful here in saying that because I am concerned about another ATS member who took issue with me saying that in a previous thread.

a reply to: Deaf Alien

Addictions are destructive. And no people don't get out of it.

Yes they do. Personal witness here, not only once. Sexual addiction and drug addiction. Smoking also.
But let's not deviate from topic, there must be many testimonials on the net about that.

originally posted by: WhiteHat
a reply to: JadeStar


Did you ever wandered that maybe if you waited for the male puberty the things were different?
Never mind, is not relevant anymore. I understand what you're saying.

I remember seeing a TV show that interviewed a FTM Transsexual, (I believe it was Real Sex on HBO) and they said "Women will never understand the power of Testosterone over your mind"

Very true, that.

I was a late bloomer. I went through puberty later than most guys. I had to take Testosterone shots to jump start it. And yes, things most definitely changed. Not just physically, but mentally! I went from a frail fragile minded boy, to a strong willed young man almost overnight. It was amazing. The absence of testosterone does indeed affect the mind in ways that could be said to be thinking like a woman. So, blocking those with blockers, is IMO a very dangerous thing to do to a child.

Now, my hormone therapy was warranted, because they were simply giving me what me body was supposed to be producing on it's own but wasn't. As I have mentioned here before, I am sterile from birth, and this is all intertwined medically.

Am I ever glad that MY mom didn't seek out "therapy" for me!

I shudder to think of how easy it would have been for some quack to suggest that I was something I wasn't. To be honest, after taking so long to enter puberty, I was beginning to wonder what was going on, and they could have influenced me pretty easily in my confused state.

a reply to: WhiteHat

Oh I think I see what you mean. I've been to AA meetings for a long time.

Can't remember the point I was trying to make. LOL.

originally posted by: WhiteHat
a reply to: kaylaluv

The science also say that addictions are in the genes, yet many people get out of it.
Science can discover tomorrow something that completely refutes today's theory, that's the nature of it. Once science thought that homosexuality is a disease and applied electric shocks to people, and today they make gender swaps. Who knows what they will do tomorrow? I have my reservation about science.
To really cover and understand a subject science is not enough; the human element, the environment, the causes, all must be taken into account.

The scientific method is the best tool available separate fact from fiction and know anything about anything in the environment, causes etc and that is exactly what has been done.

a reply to: poncho1982

Well, thank you for a first hand experience also.
This is what I am afraid of, all those kids with parents so ready to irreversible destroy their life.
Until puberty, when the right hormones kick in is all a theory.
I say let the kid be what he is, gently try to guide him on the right direction and only if the hormones and sexual maturity don't do their job conclude that something is wrong.

a reply to: poncho1982

But they've tried giving testosterone shots to gay men and transgender females. It didn't work. If it were that easy, don't you think it would be the standard procedure today?

a reply to: JadeStar

The scientific method is the best tool available separate fact from fiction and know anything about anything in the environment, causes etc and that is exactly what has been done.

Give me a few days and I will open a thread on the subject of science. Than maybe we can talk in detail about it.

originally posted by: WhiteHat
What is not ok about your replies in all of these threads is that you make everything so personally. We talk, here and in other posts about trans issues as a general topic, and people express their opinions, justified or not. But then you come in and make it all about you and your feelings and your childhood and your parents and so on; which I am sorry to say is a cheap and unfair tactic.

I'm not JadeStar but since I have also shared my history here as someone who's life has also followed a similar arc, I'm going to speak to this although undoubtedly less eloquently than she would and with a certain reluctance to subject myself to any more of the vitriol already expressed in this thread. When people think that in general we are defective, mentally ill aberrations that are really men that live in some fantasy land of self delusion and confusion and say that what we feel and know to true in very depths of our core and hearts is wrong, it's a little hard to not take it personally and be defensive. By sharing our feelings and childhoods, the hope is to show we're human beings like everyone else and some of our challenges and experiences directly relate to the issues raised in the OP and to get people to think about and consider things from our perspective.

It isn't easy or fun remembering some of our difficult times or issues that we have faced but we've put our privacy and personal feelings aside and talked about these things to raise the understanding of the lives and problems faced by transgender and transsexual people. The most direct way to do this it to tell our stories and histories so that those not frozen into some close-minded dogma with locked in preconceptions might actually learn something that applies to the person in the OP's story as well as other trans* people that might not be so forthcoming. At this point, I've given up hope that will happen.

Because further arguing with you will mean a direct attack on you. Can you see my point? And if everybody is willing to express their fair opinion about a general topic, most will restrain on expressing their opinion on you, personally.

If someone commented that their opinion was that all baby making heterosexual women were just a bunch of mentally ill, hormone driven breeders unable to control the ticking of their biological clock adding to the problems of an already over populated planet to satisfy selfish desires how would you feel? Would you take it personally? Maybe not the best example but do you get the idea of how indirectly expressing an inflammatory statement about a general topic or group of people can be taken that way?

Now on the topic of the "scientific" part and the brain gender.
I understand that there are differences in the brain between male and female, which differences are set very early in the womb, and I agree with that. The brain scans show that. Ok.
But the same is available for schizophrenia, for ADHD, depression or any kind of mental disorder, big or small; their brain is working different from those of "normal" people.
What I don't understand and you failed to explain is how exactly the gender of the brain makes a person so compulsory wanting to be what it is not.

The brain is the most complicated organ in the human body with different areas and sexually dimorphic structures, differences in cortical thickness and the ratio of grey and white matter and organizational differences locked in during in prenatal development that is different between males and females. Unlike the brain working differently or defectively in your examples of schizophrenia, ADHD and depression, scans of the brains of transsexuals are working without defect and indeed are the same as "normal" people but evidence does indeed indicate female or feminized brains are a thing that can happen to male children. In some respect, this can almost be considered or thought of as a partially intersex condition and can result in the same feminine "gender identity" as females because their brains are female like - not defective or broken any more than yours is. The "woman's brain in a man's body" is kind of an overused trope in my opinion. It is a lot more complicated than that and why this is still an area of intensive research.

Although not entirely conclusive with variances across different races and genetic backgrounds, in general, there are other easily observed sexually dimorphic characteristics that can indicate an insensitivity to or lack of in utero testosterone exposure by looking at 2D:4D finger ratios. (the length of the index finger compared to the length of the ring finger)

I am a woman... (in reference to being a tomboy) never even once in my life I was thinking that I am a man in a woman's body. I never understood how could a person think like that unless there is a severe dissociation between perceived reality and the inner world of that person.

How do you know you are a woman or how do you define it? We get asked this very question. Is it because you have a vagina? What if you woke up one day with male parts - would you still be and feel like a woman? Would there be a dissociation between this reality and your inner world? I would say yes because your sense of self, your "gender identity" is female. Can you enumerate, describe and quantify this other than by how you feel? It is something you just know, right? As a woman, if you had male genitalia, wouldn't you feel something was fundamentally wrong with this picture? Would it be your brain or would it be those parts?

... and we will never talk about "5 years/old transgenders".

A child becomes aware of other's gender and their own sense of gender and which one they are develops and solidifies between ages 3 an 4. When you were five, did you know you were a girl? Even as you got older and exhibited tomboyish behavior did you know you were still a girl? Why? Jade and I felt exactly the same way at 5 in spite of our parents and anatomy saying something different. As I said above, this is just something you know and I certainly don't have any explanation or rationalization for it other than it was how I was born.

Let me put it other way. A woman knows she is a woman at first by seeing her body as compared with other children's body or with her parents; she get's it very early that she's more like mom and not like dad.

And this is exactly when we know that for whatever reason, nature, fate, karma, the position of the stars or the flying spaghetti monster made some mistakes along the way.

I won't address the quote from McHugh. His work and comments were politically motivated and have been widely discredited in separate studies spanning four decades of research and statistics to the contrary. Anti trans sites love to drag this out as some sort of proof but it simply isn't true while it is a fact that 99% of gender atypical children do not grow up to be transsexual. "Desistors" will have "desisted by the time they are teens. Even among children that are both gender atypical and gender dysphoric, roughly only 16% persist and become transsexual as adults. It's a contestable issue and downplayed science, but research in this field has even identified two different related but distinct types of transsexuals.
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