Gender neutral craze comes to The University of Tennesee

a reply to: kaylaluv

So you don't think there is a physical part of the brain that creates consciousness?

What anybody 'thinks' about consciousness is hardly applicable here, if we're going all scientific. And "Brain Consciousness" (your 2nd paragraph) is not a scientifically accepted term. (It's one or the other, and as for the 2nd one-- no one can even prove where the seat of consciousness resides.)

I am convinced that the 'brain proper' dictates male/female development of the human body. In that sense, it IS in alignment with the body. I am curious if the development of consciousness plays a role in gender dysphoria. If so, I am leaning towards the notion that societal influences plant seeds of curiosity/confusion into the developing consciousness of SOME transgender people. Not All. Some. Because every exposure to every idea has an impact on a person's developing psyche. (Consciousness does not develop in a vacuum.)

So I DO believe gender dysphoria exists. But I do NOT believe it is brain-based. I believe there may be something to the consciousness thing though.

Peace and Good Will to you, btw.

originally posted by: PersonneX
a reply to: kaylaluv

a reply to: johnwick

So, wich pronouns (I learn how to write it in english now) people should use? This is the subject of the thread.

Edit: If you are in doubt, or doesn't want to hurt.

He and she have worked just fine for thousands of years.

I'm not changing just to humor a tiny percentage of the population.

That is idiocy of the highest order.

a reply to: kaylaluv

Having empathy, understanding, or even being encouraging has absolutely nothing to do with trying to get rid of terms or replace terms. Don't care if you want to do whatever to identify as a different gender. You have two options. Man or woman. The terms are rooted in the ability to denote biological differences. Nothing wrong with terms, nothing offensive. Don't agree with your gender , change it. I'll call you whatever gender you want. But there are nothing wrong with the terms boy, girl, man , woman, he , she. After all if you are changing, you are changing from one to the other.

Live your life as you want. It's the stupidity that there is a problem with these terms that needs to be adtessed that is the issue. After all when you are changing , you are changing to a man or woman, not an it. Terms aren't the issue. The people who would think they are, are the problem.

I'm basking in the Opression

originally posted by: continuousThunder
a reply to: Wardaddy454


uh, hi. real life actual "transgendered" right here. What Kaylaluv is telling you is the truth.
Obviously i can't speak for all trans women but i do personally know hundreds of girls like me, and i can ~guarantee~ you, not one of us regrets transition in the slightest. Dysphoria is - take my word for it - about the most horrific thing a person can feel. i spent much of my life as barely more than a zombie before i built up the courage to transition, and that's a pretty typical experience. I tried all sorts of things to fix it, but nothing helped.. until i started running my body on estrogen, and everything just fell together. Obviously it didn't magically fix my life - life would still be full of drama even if there weren't so many people offended by my existence - but at least my body finally feels like it's mine.
I wish i could describe what it's like to live your life full of the wrong hormones. every single second is a battle not to start carving your own face off.

Also, ps, using operations as some sort of goal post is missing the point significantly. this is not about genitals in any way. Most of the girls in my life don't even consider operations. It's about being able to live authentically, as who we really are. And, as in the OP, people having enough respect to use the pronouns that suit us best goes a long way to helping.

Dysphoria is a state of mind opposite of euphoria is it not? How do you know what won't work if you've already made up your mind beforehand about changing genders as a means of treatment?

a reply to: new_here

Of course, you are free to believe what you want.

They found the MTF transsexuals, as compared to the control participants, had thicker cortices (outer layers of their cerebellums), both within regions of the left hemisphere and right hemisphere. "Regional gray matter characteristics in MTF transsexuals are more similar to the pattern found in men (i.e., in subjects sharing biological sex) than in women," the authors wrote. "However, we also noticed that brain characteristics in MTF transsexuals and in control men were not fully identical."

The thicker areas within the left hemisphere of MTF transsexuals included the frontal and orbito-frontal cortex (involved in decision-making), central sulcus, perisylvian regions (helps to process language), and paracentral gyrus; and within the right hemisphere included pre-/post-central gyrus (involved in sense of touch), parietal cortex (integrates sensory information), temporal cortex (involved with visual information), precuneus (concerned with reflections upon self and aspects of consciousness), fusiform, lingual, and orbito-frontal gyrus.

"The current study provides evidence that brain anatomy is associated with gender identity, where measures in MTF transsexuals appear to be shifted away from gender-congruent men," wrote the authors.

Scientific corroboration, then, supports what individuals have tried to express for years. Since the time of Hirschfeld and Benjamin, the trans community has expanded to include not just transvestites and transsexuals but also androgynes (individuals who identify as androgynous), genderqueers (individuals who identify as somewhere in between male and female), bigenders (individuals who identify as both male and female), and any other individual who describes gender in a non-binary way. In all likelihood, scientists may soon find distinct features of the brain that correspond with each individual point along this continuum of gender possibility, identification, and expression.

www.medicaldaily.com...

July 23, 2015

www.livescience.com...

Caitlyn Jenner's very public transition from man to woman has raised awareness about the concept of hormone therapy for transgender individuals. Long-term hormone therapy is needed to create, and then maintain, the desired physical gender attributes — for Jenner, fuller breasts, curvier hips, thinner body hair and a higher-pitched voice.

But what makes transgender youth identify with a gender they weren't assigned at birth is not about having too many of the "wrong" hormones floating around, according to a study published this week in the Journal of Adolescent Health.

"We've now put to rest the residual belief that transgender experience is a result of a hormone imbalance," said Dr. Johanna Olson, of Children's Hospital Los Angeles. "It's not."

It may be that a transgender individual who feels male or female has a brain structure similar to those of other males or females, respectively, Olson said. However, the data remain inconclusive.

"I think that we will need a much larger body of research to reach conclusions about where gender identity lives in humans," Olson told Live Science.

I don't think anyone knows

a reply to: Shamrock6

I can never remember where I heard it first, but there is a quote that states, "That which we speak most fervently tends to be directed towards ourselves."

For a few years I wrote it off, but then I began examining my own words from the past.. and it started to really hit home.

There are a lot of reasons why it is so accurate, not the least of which is that we are wholly incapable of seeing the world through another's eyes. Everything we say is more indicative of our own thought processes and biases than the external world.

For whatever reason in our society, pointing out the "problems" and "hypocrisy" of others leads to those individuals only seeing it in others, rather than an inherent part of being human.

The resulting cognitive dissonance leads to everyone fighting fire with fire, but with everyone also thinking they are the ones trying to put the fires out. Because, well, "they" are the ones using fire, and "we" are opposing them. Therefore, it is impossible for "us" to burn things, because that is what "they" do.

Heavy on metaphor, obviously.

In my perspective, the underlying issue seems to be one that transcends any specific topic. We just seem to have an inherent drive to pursue dominance and conversion. In some cases, it would seem for the best. However, due to the drive to convert, habitual thinking, and maybe even some kind of "social physics," the momentum rarely stops at equilibrium.

Maybe the reality is simply, as a species, we have never learned how to live alongside others. Certainly not in a way that accurately reflects the true diversity present in humanity.

a reply to: kaylaluv

Thank you for that. Do you know if the brain scans took place prior to any sort of hormone treatment? I know that hormones do impact all aspects of male/female development, including the brain.

Also, I can't find any info regarding people undergoing brain scans as a means of diagnosing gender dysphoria. This would be such a non-invasive, priceless piece of information for physicians and patients alike, no?

Have I missed that information somewhere?

a reply to: new_here

Yes, the study required transsexuals who hadn't taken any hormones yet.

Good question about the brain scans. We can ask the transgender/transsexual people on ATS if they had ever had a brain scan.

a reply to: Shamrock6

Hey Op!

This topic is well worth bringing here and discussing. Thanks!

This below makes sense to me. From your link...

Inclusivity related to gender has been a hot topic this year: Target recently announced that it would eliminate gender signs from its toy aisle, no longer differentiating between "boy" and "girl" items, and there's also been an uptick in gender-neutral baby names like Quinn and Reese.

I can understand not having a gender aisle as I loved cars and not barbies when I was a kid. I understand how parents wont let their boy wear pink. They are in fear of what it may cause. Will these same people suggest allowing your son to go to school in a dress if he so chooses and feels most comfortable in a dress? Hopefully not as this could cause trauma for the boy.

With that said I do not understand however why we would need to change our use of language. You are either female or male. It's descriptive and will never be able to overcome something so natural.

If you are a transgender then you are transgender. One can always say they are male if they have had the surgery and are indeed male.

Why does something need to be more complicated than it has to be?

I applaud UT for being open and encouraging diversity but this isn't something that can just change.

She and He cannot be replaced by they.

If a cop asks you to describe your attacker you will not say they. You will say he or she depending on the gender they are. Or the gender they appear to be. Otherwise the cop cannot locate your attacker based on lack of description.

IMO gender doesn't decide who you sleep with. This is private and should be kept private I believe. It isn't anyone's business who you sleep with. If you choose to make it someones business and tell them thats on you. If you tell someone something and they state their opinion there isn't any reason to get upset if their opinion doesn't follow yours.

Just seems a little silly or over the top to me.

Are we going to denounce race as well?

Some people arent comfy with their race. When does it end?

a reply to: Shamrock6

I'm partial to "idiot" for this new generation. It's neutral and plenty inclusive.

here is an old study I find interesting

www.newscientist.com...

Antonio Guillamon‘s team at the National University of Distance Education in Madrid, Spain, think they have found a better way to spot a transsexual brain. In a study due to be published next month, the team ran MRI scans on the brains of 18 female-to-male transsexual people who’d had no treatment and compared them with those of 24 males and 19 females.

They found significant differences between male and female brains in four regions of white matter – and the female-to-male transsexual people had white matter in these regions that resembled a male brain (Journal of Psychiatric Research, DOI: 10.1016/j.jpsychires.2010.05.006). “It’s the first time it has been shown that the brains of female-to-male transsexual people are masculinised,” Guillamon says.

In a separate study, the team used the same technique to compare white matter in 18 male-to-female transsexual people with that in 19 males and 19 females. Surprisingly, in each transsexual person’s brain the structure of the white matter in the four regions was halfway between that of the males and females (Journal of Psychiatric Research, DOI: 10.1016/j.jpsychires.2010.11.007). “Their brains are not completely masculinised and not completely feminised, but they still feel female,” says Guillamon.

Guillamon thinks such scans may not help in all cases. “Research has shown that white matter matures during the first 20 to 30 years of life,” he says. “People may experience early or late onset of transsexuality and we don’t know what causes this difference.”

a reply to: Stormdancer777

There have been some interesting points by people here, but in the end feel free to choose gener, brain differences, etc. Fine

Absolutely nothing wrong with terms like man, woman, boy, girl, he she. Any attempt to change terms will simple end in people taking new terms and relating them to gender anyway. Human brain takes information and classifies it. It's how we remember and recall. It's an exercise in failure.

Do away with the terms will pretty much have the same affect only people won't say anything about it. Problem isn't transgendered people or even why they are transgender, rather stupid people who feel that the basic classification of someone's gender warrants change. Two options, pick one. Have fun. Terminology is fine and is needed.

Let's say one has this issue with the brain, if this is really where the trans thought come from, and science can fix it, one can choose one sex or the other?

I hope no one gets offended by this question.

If one feels female and is male, wouldn't it be easier to have your choice match you physical self instead of suffering through all the surgery, hormone therapy, and depression?

a reply to: Reallyfolks

people taking new terms and relating them to gender anyway.

So true, I was thinking that myself.

a reply to: Stormdancer777

That should be up to the individual. But it is a moot point, because there is no current indication that the brain can be forcibly changed regarding gender identity.

Back in the old days, medical science tried all kinds of cruel and unusual experiments: shock therapy, lobotomies, flooding the body with hormones that matched the physical gender, etc. Nothing worked. Just a lot of pain and suffering.

originally posted by: kaylaluv

Back in the old days, medical science tried all kinds of cruel and unusual experiments: shock therapy, lobotomies, flooding the body with hormones that matched the physical gender, etc. Nothing worked. Just a lot of pain and suffering.

not like those treatments are exclusive to and because of transgenders.
lots of things were done in the old days as far as medicine goes...its how we learn

they used to treat schizophrenia with insulin shocks..
now they have yummy stuff like thorazine and haldol...

Here's another issue with this:

Imagine how complicated normal conversation or even writing would be with this although convos would be worse. If this is a voluntary policy, then people would be free to choose for themselves which set of pronouns they prefer. So not only do you have to remember the names of every person you are in a conversation with, but now, to be polite, you also have to ask which set of pronouns you should use and remember and switch up on a dime depending on whom you are referring to in your conversation. That also means you cannot just use general or unspecific "he" or "she" or even the neutral equivalents because neither default is correct. After all, you might offend someone who actually prefers one set over the other. So, you have to personally drop the proper antecedent into your conversation too every single time you use a pronoun of one type or the other so as to avoid offending someone who prefers the other set (gender specific as opposed to gender neutral or vice versa).

In short, this is a nightmare.

Of course, they could just mandate that everyone has to be gender neutral, but that's not inclusive to anyone who likes to have gender specific pronouns because they happen to be comfortable and happy with their gender identity.

originally posted by: Mugly

originally posted by: kaylaluv

Back in the old days, medical science tried all kinds of cruel and unusual experiments: shock therapy, lobotomies, flooding the body with hormones that matched the physical gender, etc. Nothing worked. Just a lot of pain and suffering.

not like those treatments are exclusive to and because of transgenders.
lots of things were done in the old days as far as medicine goes...its how we learn

they used to treat schizophrenia with insulin shocks..
now they have yummy stuff like thorazine and haldol...

The issue however is that gender dysphoria is not like schizophrenia. What kaylayluv said is true. The brain is hardwired for gender. What science has found is that gender your brain is born with is who you are.

I was born with a girl brain. I've always thought of myself as a girl. No amount of anything would have changed that and attempts to do so just made me feel worse until I was allowed to actually be myself beginning at age 7.

So that's why the preferred treatment is to get the body to match that rather than force a female brain to accept its male body or male brain to accept its female body.

The problems which transgender people (the proper plural not 'transgenders') face are more a result of others not accepting them being born different.

originally posted by: Stormdancer777
Let's say one has this issue with the brain, if this is really where the trans thought come from, and science can fix it, one can choose one sex or the other?

I hope no one gets offended by this question.

If one feels female and is male, wouldn't it be easier to have your choice match you physical self instead of suffering through all the surgery, hormone therapy, and depression?

This is from the American Psychiatric Association:

Gender variant and transgender individuals must cope with multiple unique challenges, including significant discrimination, prejudice, and the potential for victimization from violent hate crimes. They often experience discrimination when accessing health care and are denied numerous basic civil rights and protections… transgender and gender variant people are frequently denied medical, surgical, and psychiatric care related to gender transition. Access to medical care (both medical and surgical) positively impacts the mental health of transgender and gender variant individuals.

Being transgender or gender variant implies no impairment in judgment, stability, reliability, or general social or vocational capabilities; however, these individuals often experience discrimination due to a lack of civil rights protections for their gender identity or expression. Transgender and gender variant persons are frequently harassed and discriminated against when seeking housing or applying for jobs or schools, are often victims of violent hate crimes, and face challenges in marriage, adoption, and parenting rights.

Discrimination and lack of equal civil rights is damaging to the mental health of transgender and gender variant individuals. For example, gender-based discrimination and victimization were found to be independently associated with attempted suicide in a population of transgender individuals, 32% of whom had histories of trying to kill themselves, and in the largest survey to date of gender variant and transgender people 41% reported attempting suicide.*

The APA joins other organizations, including the American Medical Association and the American Psychological Association, in endorsing strong policy statements deploring the discrimination experienced by gender variant and transgender individuals and calling for laws to protect their civil rights.

– The American Psychiatric Association, 8/16/12, Release No. 12-36