70% of North Korea’s Submarines have Left their Bases, Can’t be Located

a reply to: Vasa Croe

Just because 'we' don't know doesn't mean that the information isn't known. It probably just hasn't been made public. And I think the majority, if not all of the NK sub fleet has a 3-5 day submersion limit. Some may be longer than that, I suppose. But obviously none of their subs are nuclear-powered so they will all have to surface to replenish their O2 supplies for the diesel engines.
As far as live tracking goes, they really aren't hiding from anyone who actually wants to find them. Their sub fleet is extremely outdated, and on the high side of noisy for a submarine. Any navy with relatively modern sonar equipment would be able to locate them at distance with passive return only.

a reply to: pfishy

Not in littoral waters they won't. Their fleet isn't as old as they're made out to be. Most of them are newer than pretty much all of the Los Angeles class boats. They're not as new or sl as advanced as the newest AIP boats, but they're designed for a different mission.

a reply to: Zaphod58

Well, if my understanding of their capabilities and limitations is incorrect then I gladly stand corrected. I'm certainly no Naval expert. I do like to delve into various nations' capabilities from time to time, and I generally have pretty clear recall of information I purposely read, but I truly can't claim to have used the best sources. Just quick Internet searches.

a reply to: pfishy

The diesel electric boats are naturally quiet to begin with. In blue water they're slightly easier to find, but not much. Their biggest limitation is fuel.

Sonar in shallow water doesn't work well. Too many objects and things to hide sound behind for passive sonar, and active in those conditions would just about deafen an operator.

Hunting a diesel boat in shallow waters is a naval captain's nightmare.

Given how much they need the fuel this is going to cost them dearly. They would not do this unless they plan on striking something, or were just scared to death that their toys were going to be bombed in port if they did do anything to the South. They would be right as the Navy and Air force would take them out very quick, this just makes it a tad harder to do but with very limited endurance they will be sitting ducks soon.

originally posted by: Zaphod58
a reply to: pfishy

The diesel electric boats are naturally quiet to begin with.
Hunting a diesel boat in shallow waters is a naval captain's nightmare.

While on Battery somewhat but they are still old clunky boats. Just the prop turning will make enough noise for us to pick up. The old Diesel engines will be heard 10 miles away starting up to recharge the batteries.

They are way to old not to be found quickly by our Navy. The only hope they have is to run under freighters to hide.

b-29s-over-korea.com...

Not impressed.

a reply to: Patriotsrevenge

They're newer than most of our sub fleet. And even an old noisy boat in shallow water is going to be incredibly difficult to find.

Nice link. Too bad it totally ignores most of their sub classes and capabilities.

a reply to: Zaphod58

sigh, our towed arrays and a good sonar man, can find these subs.. Not to mention SOSUS.

I am thinking active sonar pings are ringing all over the place if we are searching for Korean subs.

I also think the three sea wolves in our fleet are lurking around the pacific or in the far east.

I dunno..

If I had to guess they are lurking towards Japan.. If they are up to something.. Or maybe some suicide mission, I dunno not to worried about it at the moment.

a reply to: IridiumFlareMadness

Correction: NK Subs = UPSIDE DOWN Aluminum paddle boats.

a reply to: Bicent76

In. Open. Water. And even there diesel boats give US operators fits.

The North Korean diesel electric boats are designed to operate in shallow water. You can't used a towed array where they operate, OR active sonar unless you want your sonar operators to go deaf.

You have to have special sonar that is not installed on most submarines.

That is what concerns the U.S. Navy. Two things heighten the risk of a similar ambush by midget submarines against U.S. ships: the complex sonar picture of shallow water where these small subs can operate, and a post–Cold War decrease in anti-submarine training. "Instead of a large number of Soviet nuclear-powered submarines on the open ocean, advanced conventional submarines operating in the littorals have emerged as the most serious threat to U.S. forwardly deployed forces, military sealift and merchant shipping," Milan Vego, professor of operations at the Joint Military Operations Department at the Naval War College, wrote in a recent piece for Armed Forces Journal. "The emerging threats ... are minisubmarines, swimmer-delivery vehicles, remotely operated vehicles and autonomous underwater vehicles."

This week the Pentagon announced it would step up its anti-submarine training, engaging in exercises with South Korea. The decision is "a result of the findings of this recent incident," Pentagon spokesman Bryan Whitman told reporters. But crash courses in sub hunting may not help much; professionals admit it's an art as much as a science. The United States' sub-hunting abilities have atrophied since the Soviet Union dissolved. One obstacle to revamping anti-submarine training is bringing it out of simulators and into the real world. It takes a lot of effort to conduct a real sub hunt, but these skills need to be continuously honed. "The skills for successful conduct of anti-submarine warfare (ASW) must be maintained; otherwise, they will quickly atrophy," Vego warns.

www.popularmechanics.com...


I know you think the US is unbeatable but a diesel electric sub in shallow waters will give any Navy absolute fits to find and kill.

a reply to: Zaphod58

they have to get thru the pacific...


That is one if not the deepest ocean on the planet, Zaph...

Where is this shallow water they are suppose to be lurking around?

20ft or something?

A towed array does not go down that deep.. I do not care how damn loud a active ping is in shallow water, if it pings back their is something their.. Then go passive to find the target, I should not have to educate ats members how sonars work..

I would not worry to much about one popular mechanics article.

Now as far as sonar training I dunno what to say about that, I suppose clinton, neutered that program...

I am not saying NATO or the USA is not unbeatable but I am saying North Korea, is on a suicide mission if they think they can nuke a US city, or try to sink a US ship etc.

a reply to: Bicent76

They aren't going to operate in open ocean. The longest ranged sub they have in any numbers only has a range of 1500 miles. They're going to do exactly what they did to that South Korean destroyer, and hide in shallow areas where it's only a couple hundred feet deep and ambush them.

They're going to do the same thing to our ships. Once they're in shallow water around the peninsula they're going to be almost impossible to dig out.

a reply to: Zaphod58

Zaph, the seahawks will eat them alive....

Come on man, this is not like you to talk like this...

a reply to: Bicent76

Zaph, North Korea, will not get wolfpack status like the natzis did bro.. If they try that crap...

a reply to: Bicent76

They will have the same problem. Sonar doesn't work well in shallow water. And when they DO find them, the torpedoes will have problems hitting them.

This is EXACTLY what diesel electric boats were designed for.

I'm being realistic. I know what a problem finding diesel electric boats is to begin with, and how much harder it is in shallow water. No matter how much more advanced you are, the basic rules still apply. Standard sonar has problems with shallow water.

a reply to: Bicent76

You know. Screw it, you guys are right. We'll just waltz in and smack them down without even breaking a sweat. We won't even have to send ships in, they'll just sink themselves.

a reply to: Bicent76

You are not reading what he says - in shallow water diesel Electric subs rule - the big nuclear hunter-killers are actually not much use at all - they are too big, and noisier than non-nukes.

The Nth Korean subs are not made to attack shipping off Japan - they are mainly made to land groups of 10 or so commandoes on het coastline of South Korea - SOSUS is irrelevant.

a reply to: Zaphod58

I do not think you understand exactly why the towed array was designed...

Sea hawks carry depth charges man...

These subs will leave signatures if they attack.. We will blow the Crap outta them in shallow water..

I also do not think you know why the towed array was designed?

If you do remind me again.. Thanks.

a reply to: Bicent76

And towed arrays are largely irrelevant too......

a reply to: Aloysius the Gaul

LOL

damn then I guess our ancestors who fought in world war 2 with primitive sonars hunting diesel/electric subs back in the 40's, are irrelevant also.. We ended up winning that war, oh and sinking allot of UBOATS in shallow and deep water....

this whole we have no hope bullcrap is sad vs the NORTH Korean, subs LOL

Might be time to hit the rack guys...