Clerk's office defies order; no same-sex marriage licenses

a reply to: Isurrender73

Why does the government need to be involved in marriage at all? What business is it of my government what my living situation is? Marriage laws end up complicating things without providing any benefit to society.

Yeah. Legal contracts are stupid. They really get in the way and there's no point in having them.

originally posted by: Isurrender73
It has recently occurred to me that legal marriages that are recognized by the government should be considered a violation of the separation of church and state.

Why are there any marriage laws? Why are there any tax breaks?

Because people want the legal and financial benefits. Oddly enough, the same people upset over this court ruling are the same people who argue it destroys marriage to remove these laws. At the end of the day people like having things like a marital communications privilege and the ability to make decisions over a persons health care if they're hurt.

originally posted by: Isurrender73

It has recently occurred to me that legal marriages that are recognized by the government should be considered a violation of the separation of church and state.

It's not a violation of church and state because Marriage isn't owned by the church. The church and religion aren't even a part of Legal Marriage. They can be, but it is not always so. We are talking about "Legal Marriage".

originally posted by: mOjOm

originally posted by: Isurrender73

It has recently occurred to me that legal marriages that are recognized by the government should be considered a violation of the separation of church and state.

It's not a violation of church and state because Marriage isn't owned by the church. The church and religion aren't even a part of Legal Marriage. They can be, but it is not always so. We are talking about "Legal Marriage".

Even though this has been answered several time, I just HAD to reply too haha.

The church has never 'owned' legal marriage i.e. the marriage license part has absolutely nothing to do with the tradition of the bride walking down the aisle and the priest / minister / pastor or whatever the church in question calls their holy man muttering the blessings to the couple.

Church marriages are a religious ceremony, which because of freedom of religion the church is free to say no to holding them for same sex couples. The church also uses this right to say no to holding say a satanic wedding ritual, weddings for other branches of the faith i.e. a Catholic church would say no to marrying baptists unless said Baptists converted to Catholicism first.

I actually know of several cases in Islam where couples are religiously married i.e. they have had the ceremony with their local Imam, but have not had the marriage ratified by the state. These couples are not legally married and therefore the union is not recognised by the government. A recent awful example was the case of an Australian new immigrant who married an 11 year old girl religiously. He was naturally arrested for his crime and the marriage was of course considered both null and void as well as highly immoral and illegal.

There is no violation of the separation of State and Church at all here then, because it is business as usual for the faithful. The State has simply added a new definition to marriage the the Church does not have to participate in. However, anyone working for the state in a marriage registry office is bound by the terms of their employment to issue marriage licenses without bias so long as they meet the legal criteria.

a reply to: markosity1973

another good example would the the african american slave in the Southern US. They didn't have a legal right to marry, it was prohibited, but that didn't stop them. They just came up with a new ritual and well continued on. They would hold hands and jump a broom. were they married according to the laws, no. where they married by the church? no. but well in their hearts they were married!!! neither church or state can really deny a couple the right to marry. they can just opt to not recognize it.

originally posted by: IslandOfMisfitToys

originally posted by: diggindirt

originally posted by: DeadFoot

originally posted by: diggindirt
a reply to: DeadFoot
Of course it is her fault for believing as she does.
Of course it is government's fault---they are the ones who changed the law in the midst of her term as clerk.
Have you no deeply held convictions that could not be swayed by the "world's evolving standards"?
And just so you understand---there isn't just one clerk in the country who is protesting this ruling in this manner.
I think it might not be the clerks who need to "grow up and realize" some truths. Your attitude could use a dash of maturity toward your fellow humans who hold beliefs different than your own.

Okay...

I find it rather hilarious that you're telling me to express understanding toward my fellow humans when we're talking about a woman who has been married 4 times enforcing her personal judgment on gay people based on the same religious rules that she has broken herself 3 times.

Maybe it's hard for me to understand because I'm not a complete moron.

Either way it seems kind of simple. Don't like your job? Find a new one. That's what adults do. Her "I AM THE LAW" attitude is not something that I have an obligation to sympathize with simply because she uses her religion as a shield.

I'm asking you to extend understanding to a fellow human being. To refuse to do so is to continue the division and acrimony. That seems pretty moronic to me.
What good is created by your judgmental attitude? Have you walked in her shoes? Have you ever had your moral convictions challenged in the way hers are being questioned? Ever had the rules changed on you in midstream?

I'm not asking you to accept her beliefs or approve her behavior, just extend a bit of human compassion for another member of the species.

Do you extend compassion for your fellow KKK members?

Do you extend compassion for ISS to hold their beliefs and practices?

Do you extend compassion for the Nazis who killed 6 million people for their beliefs?

If not, why should I extend compassion for just one more bigot?

Well, the only KKK member I ever knowingly met was Sen. Robert Byrd back in the days when he was appearing on the Grand Ole Opry with his yoyo. And yes, I felt sorry for him even then because he suffered so horribly from "Small-man syndrome." Dr. King taught us to love our enemies and to bless those who revile us.
Bless you.

God is Love, so Love is always victorious. There is Liberty and Justice for all when people learn to treat others as they would like to be treated.

Love Thy Neighbour As Thyself = Equality

This woman will learn that Equality (Love Thy Neighbour As Thyself), leads to Peace.

Clerking has been a family business in Rowan County. Davis worked for her mother for 27 years before replacing her in the elected post this year, and her son Nathan now works for her. He personally turned away a gay couple last week.

abcnews.go.com...

there are two positions here, unfortunately, it's all in the family!!!

ummm, ya.....

originally posted by: dawnstar

Clerking has been a family business in Rowan County. Davis worked for her mother for 27 years before replacing her in the elected post this year, and her son Nathan now works for her. He personally turned away a gay couple last week.

abcnews.go.com...

there are two positions here, unfortunately, it's all in the family!!!

ummm, ya.....

Now it's getting beyond rediculous.

They gotta go!

The U.S. Court of Appeals for the Sixth Circuit rejected Rowan County Clerk Kim Davis’s request for a stay of the federal district judge’s ruling that ordered her to issue licenses to all eligible couples, The New Civil Rights Movement reports. That means she and her staff, who have been turning away both same-sex and opposite-sex couples, must begin providing licenses Monday. www.advocate.com...

a reply to: Annee

.....and she's going to the supreme court....

www.wdbj7.com...

will the court grant her a reprieve? will it be decided that the county should just start another branch just to issue marriage licenses so this little lady and son don't have to go against their religious belief of descrimination??

only time will tell....

originally posted by: dawnstar
a reply to: Annee

.....and she's going to the supreme court....

www.wdbj7.com...

will the court grant her a reprieve? will it be decided that the county should just start another branch just to issue marriage licenses so this little lady and son don't have to go against their religious belief of descrimination??

only time will tell....

I hope the Supreme Court reads her the riot act.

Monday awaits.

a reply to: Annee

they certainly better not order the country to accommodate her....unless that means the county hires her as a clerk in a position that is more to her liking, at a pay that is suitable for that job.

originally posted by: dawnstar
a reply to: Annee

they certainly better not order the country to accommodate her....unless that means the county hires her as a clerk in a position that is more to her liking, at a pay that is suitable for that job.

I expect the Supreme Court will reject the request, then it will fall back on the lower court's decision.

She has been ordered by the lower court to comply starting Monday. I don't know what happens if she does not comply Monday. She can't be fired, but she can be arrested.

a reply to: Annee
contempt of court charges seems appropriate. jail her and the governor can step in with a replacement that will do it.

Her Job is to issue marriage licenses. The parts of the KY law that said marriage is only between a man and women have been superceded by the SCOTUS ruling. If she doesn't comply,she will be subject to the other parts of that KY law, and will be comitting a crime that will make her ineligible for her postion. She will be effectively fired. The Supreme Court won't even hear her appeal I bet.

She can either perform her duties or stay with her convictions and resign/ get removed from office.

You can't let your religious views creep Into Law unless you want Sharia or other religious laws applied to you.

I don't know why she still has a job...fire her, and then fire the supervisor who should have fired her along time ago......if you refuse to do your job, you are fired....why is this so hard to understand?

a reply to: jimmyx
it's an elected position, the state legislature has to vote to remove her and they are on vacation....
in recess, whatever....
so well, at this point, unless the judge feels like putting her in jail for contempt and a sub is put into the position, well, this is the way it is...
and well, her son is the clerk that is underneath her if I am understanding right, so it won't do any good to put him in that position either.

lol...

Clerking has been a family business in Rowan County. Davis worked for her mother for 27 years before replacing her in the elected post this year, and her son Nathan now works for her. He personally turned away a gay couple last week.

abcnews.go.com...

Official misconduct charge against Rowan County Clerk Kim Davis referred to attorney general

]Meanwhile, the Rowan County Attorney's Office said on Friday that it has referred to the Attorney General's Office a charge of official misconduct against Davis.

www.wkyt.com...

BREAKING: Supreme Court: Kentucky Clerk Must Issue Marriage Licenses The court today turned down Kim Davis's appeal, meaning she must issue licenses to all eligible couples beginning Tuesday or face penalties.

www.advocate.com...