The Beauty of Atheism

originally posted by: Woodcarver

originally posted by: RealTruthSeeker
a reply to: Woodcarver

I'm not trying to debate who believed what, only pointing out that atheist have just as much blood on their hands as anyone else. Are you saying that's not true?

It is def not true. Stalin and mao did not kill people because they were atheists. They killed people over political and economic reasons. Plus You are arbitrarily setting a cut-off point of 100 years ago. If we extend your time frame back to the beginning of recorded history, what does your ratio look like then?

I never said they killed in the name of atheism, I'm only pointing out that people who where atheist have committed more murder than anyone, and each time on a massive scale.

If you can show me the data past the last 100 years I'll be more than glad to look at it.

This cant be a serious thread lol this a joke right? You're just trolling right now i cant believe my eyes right now lmfao sweet baby heysuse lol

So much dodging it's hilarious.

So basically, Atheists aren't guilty of atrocities because they have political opinions that tag along with them, but Christians are ALWAYS guilty of atrocities (hundreds of years ago) because those political influences don't count, and reflect on the religion itself.

HYPOCRITES. That is what you are. It's comical watching you make excuses for yourselves each and every time.

a reply to: RealTruthSeeker

Hitler believed in God.
Why blame atheism on the genocides? Hitler and Stalin both had a mustache do you also blame Mustaches?.

a reply to: RealTruthSeeker

oh dear

Firstly just because a leader was an atheist doesn't mean he killed IN THE NAME OF atheism. whereas our religious counterparts Did kill in the name of religion and are still doing so to this day.

I'm an atheist, a REAL atheist, not one of these faux atheists you see on facebook mocking religion and making the claim that god doesn't exist.

As an atheist i merely do not prescribe to the idea of god, i don't say he does not exist, because lets face it, nobody can prove otherwise just like christians can't prove he does.

Nor do i mock those who choose to believe there is a god, if that is what they believe then so be it. What i will say however is that atheists are far more tollerant than their religious counterparts, they have no "god" telling them that being gay is a sin etc, when we look at islam were people are sentenced to death for being gay, or stoned for being raped or commiting adultery etc then we can see first hand that religion brings death. i dont see any atheists doing this kind of crap.

originally posted by: DeadSeraph
So much dodging it's hilarious.

So basically, Atheists aren't guilty of atrocities because they have political opinions that tag along with them, but Christians are ALWAYS guilty of atrocities (hundreds of years ago) because those political influences don't count, and reflect on the religion itself.

HYPOCRITES. That is what you are. It's comical watching you make excuses for yourselves each and every time.

I only blame peoples beliefs when they specifically state that is why they killed. None of the people listed (Stalin, mao, pot) declared their atheism as the reason for mass murders. Their reasons were always political, to squash the opposition, to remain in power. They didn't kill because of their atheism. There are no tenets of atheism that call for murdering the opposition. That is a religious and or political motiivation.

Are you guys going to ignore all of my previous posts? What is the point of this debate if you ignore all of my rebuttals?

a reply to: RealTruthSeeker

here it is again because nobody saw it the first time.

Hitler – the atheist tyrant, as D’Souza called him, intent upon creating a religion-free utopia. Really!! … that claim has a couple of flaws. The most notable is that Hitler was not an Atheist, he was Catholic. Hitler frequently spoke positively about the Christian German culture, and his belief in the “Aryan” Christ. He also remained a formal member of the Catholic Church until his death. In Mein Kampf Hitler speaks of the “creator of the universe” and “eternal Providence.” And as for his supposed plans to create a religion-free utopia, utter bollocks – Hitler often associated atheism with Germany’s communist enemy, and not as a goal. In a speech delivered in Berlin, October 24, 1933, Hitler stated: “We were convinced that the people needs and requires this faith. We have therefore undertaken the fight against the atheistic movement, and that not merely with a few theoretical declarations: we have stamped it out“. During negotiations leading to the Nazi-Vatican Concordat of April 26, 1933 Hitler argued that “Secular schools can never be tolerated”.

Atheist Tyrant? … er no, not one jot of evidence exists for that claim.

Stalin – Most definitely a tyrant, no doubt of that, and also one that openly opposed religion. Now this is where we come to our “Post hoc ergo propter hoc” fallacy … “Stalin was not a believer, Stalin killed millions, therefore atheism caused the death of millions”. The fundamental flaw here is that Stalin was in fact a believer, a fanatical Marxist believer – he personally led the Russian revolution in 1917 alongside Lenin and so he created his own myth. The cause of all that happened and all that followed was not non-belief, but rather was rooted within the combination of his fanatical Marxist idology, his unstable personality, and also his ambition and lust for total power. In fact by 1922 Lenin came to realise that Stalin was too unstable and wanted him removed, but due to his stroke was unable to do this. So what was the root cause, what really made him tick inside …non-belief? No quite clearly not, Stalin was in fact a psychopath, with a lust for power who rose high enough to be able to leverage total control and then proceeded to eliminate any and all opposition.

Mao Zedong -Yes, another fanatical Marxist and also a non-believer whose Great Leap Forward and the Cultural Revolution, are blamed for millions of deaths. He demonstrated an astonishing disregard for individual human lives and repeatedly affirmed his willingness to sacrifice up to a third of the Chinese population in a nuclear war, an utter fanatic devoted to grasping, then consolidating total power and imposing his ideology upon all, driven not by non-belief, but by a belief in himself and his personality cult.

So where does all this lead us? its simple really, Atheism doesn’t kill people, Fanaticism kills people, be that religious or political.

So what really is the root cause behind all that Hitler, Stalin, Mao and other similar tyrants did? All of them have one common cause, in each instance they were psychopaths. Note that I’m not using that as a form of insult, I’m giving you a diagnosis. A psychopath is somebody who manifests superficial charm, Grandiose sense of self-worth, is cunning and manipulative, lacks remorse or guilt, is callous, has a lack of empathy, and fails to accept responsibility for their own actions.

Religion does indeed stand guilty of some truly hideous crimes and a direct root cause within a delusional belief can indeed be established (think 9/11 as an example), but the attempt to put a lack of belief in the dock on the basis that some fanatical psychopaths committed truly hideous crimes on an industrial scale is simply an instance of the “Post hoc ergo propter hoc” fallacy, the root cause was their Psychopathy.

originally posted by: DeadSeraph
So much dodging it's hilarious.

So basically, Atheists aren't guilty of atrocities because they have political opinions that tag along with them, but Christians are ALWAYS guilty of atrocities (hundreds of years ago) because those political influences don't count, and reflect on the religion itself.

HYPOCRITES. That is what you are. It's comical watching you make excuses for yourselves each and every time.

Those christians, muslims, and jews, specifically claim they are killing for the glory of their god or that those murders were sanctioned by their religious books.

Can you find where stalin, mao, or pot, claimed their motivations were based on their atheistic beliefs? Or do they claim their political ideologies?

That is the difference and it is not a subtle one.

originally posted by: DeadSeraph
a reply to: Klassified

You seem to be missing the point of the OP.

Actually, nevermind. You ARE the point of the OP.

I didn't miss it. I addressed both his numbers, and his point(As have others). As usual though, it was ignored because arrogance, and a superiority complex, won't let you or the OP see it.

originally posted by: RealTruthSeeker

originally posted by: Klassified
a reply to: RealTruthSeeker
Adolf Hitler (Germany 1939-1945) 12,000,000 people murdered

I can't say for sure if Hitler was a Christian or not, his actions didn't show it. But I'll give you the benefit of the doubt and say that he was. But even without Hitler that still puts the number well over 200 million deaths committed by atheist, all committed in the last 100 years, that's just insane.

Since you ignored my previous post addressing this, I'll try it once more in a slightly different way. The very fact that you would even need to make an OP that compares the numbers between secular and religious atrocities means you have already lost the debate before you even get started. No matter what the numbers are. It wouldn't matter if secular/atheist numbers were 10 times that of religion.

And yes, many of us do blame religion in general for the vast majority of the societal problems and atrocities in the last several thousand years. Let alone the past 100 years. Why? Because religion has reigned supreme on this planet for a very long time. And yet here we are in the 21rst century not only still dealing with the same old crap that has been going on for millennia. But religion, especially the Abrahamic religions, still claim the high ground when it comes to morals, ethics, truth, knowledge, and spirituality.

Hundreds of millions, if not billions have died throughout history clinging to an ideology that has done nothing but cause suffering on a scale most of us don't want to imagine. Your comparison, and your point are null, because religion is still king of the hill across the planet, and we are still fighting the same old "demons". Hatred, violence, and bigotry.

With the exception of very few figures from history, the vast majority of those ruling this planet, and their subjects are ALL religious. Atheists are a minority, and always have been. Religions track record is horrendous as a ruling class, and doesn't have a defense to present, nor a good excuse for why this planet is in the mess it is in on their "superior" watch.

The Abrahamic religions in particular are the pinnacle of arrogance, hypocrisy, and elitist bigotry, above all others. Everything they have accused others of throughout history, they have been guilty of many times over, yet they still cling to their "holy" ideology. IF atheists, and anyone else not belonging to the Borg Collective(religious elite) aren't murdered en masse first. The day may come when atheists, and other non-believers do become prominent on this planet, and sit in seats of power. IF and WHEN that day actually comes, then religion will have something to bitch about if we screw it up. But for now, and historically, they only have one group to blame. Themselves.

If they, being the majority, and the "chosen" ones, can't get their own act together, then why would we want to follow the same example after all these millennia? At least atheists and secularists are willing to admit we are learning as we go.

originally posted by: kellyjay
As an atheist i merely do not prescribe to the idea of god, i don't say he does not exist, because lets face it, nobody can prove otherwise just like christians can't prove he does.

Then you aren't atheist, you're agnostic because atheist firmly believe that no deity exists.

a reply to: RealTruthSeeker

Hitler was a .. vegetarian! Those are the real haters!

originally posted by: theMediator

originally posted by: kellyjay
As an atheist i merely do not prescribe to the idea of god, i don't say he does not exist, because lets face it, nobody can prove otherwise just like christians can't prove he does.

Then you aren't atheist, you're agnostic because atheist firmly believe that no deity exists.

semantics lol

This thread is absurd.
It's simply impossible that there we're more murders in the name of atheism than in the name of religions.

The religion excuse was used much much more in our history than any other excuses. This FACT should be universal knowledge.

originally posted by: kellyjay

originally posted by: theMediator

originally posted by: kellyjay
As an atheist i merely do not prescribe to the idea of god, i don't say he does not exist, because lets face it, nobody can prove otherwise just like christians can't prove he does.

Then you aren't atheist, you're agnostic because atheist firmly believe that no deity exists.

semantics lol

More than that!
I think for someone to believe for 100% sure that gods don't exist requires faith in non-existence.

Agnostics require proof, or more proof, to make their "decision".

originally posted by: theMediator

originally posted by: kellyjay

originally posted by: theMediator

originally posted by: kellyjay
As an atheist i merely do not prescribe to the idea of god, i don't say he does not exist, because lets face it, nobody can prove otherwise just like christians can't prove he does.

Then you aren't atheist, you're agnostic because atheist firmly believe that no deity exists.

semantics lol

More than that!
I think for someone to believe for 100% sure that gods don't exist requires faith in non-existence.

Agnostics require proof, or more proof, to make their "decision".

thankyou for clarifying

The religious never seem to have an end to their ignorance.

originally posted by: RealTruthSeeker
a reply to: hydeman11

Mao Ze-Dong (China, 1958-61 and 1966-69, Tibet 1949-50) 49-78,000,00 people murdered
Jozef Stalin (USSR 1932-39 only) 15,000,000 people murdered
Pol Pot (Cambodia, 1975-79) 1,700,000 people murdered
Kim II Sung (North Korea 1948-94) 1.6 million people murdered
Tito (Yugoslavia 1945-1987) 570,000 people murdered
Suharto (Communists 1967-66) 500,000 people murdered
Ante Pavelic (Croatia 1941-45) 359,000 people murdered
Ho Chi Min (Vietnam 1953-56) 200,000 people murdered
Vladimir Ilich Lenin (USSR, 1917-20) 30,000 people murdered
Adolf Hitler (Germany 1939-1945) 12,000,000 people murdered

* Mao’s mother, Wen Chi-mei, was a devout Buddhist and Mao also became a practising Buddhist from an early age.

* Stalin was raised devout in the Greek Orthodox Church. His parents hoped he would become a priest.

* Pol Pot’s Khmer Rouge were composed of Buddhists and Pol Pot was a Theravada Buddhist.

* Today, Juche is no longer just an ideology, but a full-fledged religion that worships Kim Il Sung as god, and his son, Kim Jong Il as the son of god. Whether or not Kim Jong Un is now worshipped as the grandson of god remains to be seen. (Took it to another level and believed he was god!

* In his youth Tito attended Catholic Sunday school, and was later an altar boy. After an incident where he was slapped and shouted at by a priest when he had difficulty assisting the priest to remove his vestments, Tito would not enter a church again.

* Suharto was born a Muslim

* Ante Pavelic was Roman Catholic

* Ho Chi Min was Roman Catholic

* Vladimir Ilich Lenin was Jewish

* Hitler made speeches claiming divine authority and cited scripture to back up his beliefs.

a reply to: flammadraco

Howdy,

Thank you for the legwork in collecting that data. However, I don't think it much matters what the leaders were if the OP can not demonstrate the causal link he claims exists between atheism and genocidal tendencies. After all, it is moot what they were if it cannot be proved that what they were caused what they did, right?

For the general consideration of other thread goers, I offer this meta-analysis of studies on secularism, atheism, and religiosity in their relations to social well-being. If one does not agree with the conclusions, please argue with the correlations that exist as data (not necessarily causal). Specifically, why are more atheistic and secular nations lower in violent crime? Why are atheists underrepresented in the American prison population?
www.onlyemes.org...

We can point to all the cherry-picked leaders we'd like and make tallies, but I'd suggest using a larger sample size and extending behavioral comparison to the general populations.

Sincere regards,
Hydeman

a reply to: hydeman11

...I don't think it much matters what the leaders were if the OP can not demonstrate the causal link he claims exists between atheism and genocidal tendencies. After all, it is moot what they were if it cannot be proved that what they were caused what they did, right?

This is also one of the OP's points. That many who blame religion as a whole cannot always show the causal link. And truthfully, I don't completely disagree with him. Both sides make unfounded blanket statements about the other. That's a given.

My problem with his OP is, causal links can be shown between wars, racism, sexism, and bigotry to religion repeatedly throughout history. It's well documented. A few have been posted in this thread alone. Their own texts spell it out, whether or not the incidents were always real.