theory on the origins of Islam

a reply to: Kapusta

we do have the original source for the Holy Bible it is GOD.

originally posted by: ChesterJohn
a reply to: Kapusta

we do have the original source for the Holy Bible it is GOD.

Your god is my god . simply put

a reply to: Kapusta

I respectfully disagree

Allah only loves Muslims

My God loves all Men alike.

Allah was a name of an Idol before 600AD

My God was never an Idol.

that is just a couple of differences.

Islam started out from Haggar teaching her son to dispise his father and to be A ass of a man and a thorn in his brothers side until the end of days.

I have a issue with some Islamic scholars. The prophesized child. God Made a Promise to Abraham and SARAH that their firstborn son will be th echosen one. Now lets be very specific here. Did God ppromise Abraham and Haggar OR did it say ABRAHAM and SARAH?

Now SARAH went against Gods promise and gave Abraham her handmaiden because she Thought God had forgotten about her. WHere did it say in the promise that Haggar would bear the child? Nowhere. It was promised to Abe and Sarah alone. as in SARAH would carry the child herself inside her womb.

SO while technically Ishmail was born first he was not th eone promised to Abe and Sarah and that is why they were sent away in exile.

So when people claim they are right about ishmail go back and educate them on this. Its a inconvenient truth and they will automatically claim corruption which happens when a mistak e is pointed out.

a reply to: ChesterJohn
Those are some big boasts, Chester!

originally posted by: ChesterJohn
I respectfully disagree

Allah only loves Muslims

My God loves all Men alike.

And speaking of boasts:
Psalms 5:5: "The boastful shall not stand in Your presence, You hate all who do wrong"
Leviticus 20:23: "You must not live according to the customs of the nations I am going to drive out before you. Because they did all these things, I abhorred them."

Tell me, Chester, do muslims "Do wrong" by not worshipping Jesus? They're essentially headed to hell according to your scripture, no? In fact, the Bible tells us that very few will make it to heaven. The Biblical God must REALLY love everyone!

originally posted by: ChesterJohn
Allah was a name of an Idol before 600AD

My God was never an Idol.

Ignoring the ridiculous and unproven assertion in the initial part of the statement, let me define for you according to google, what an idol is:
"An image or representation of a god used as an object of worship."
I also encourage you to click the link for a pictorial representation


a reply to: yuppa
Actually, nowhere where the covenant itself is mentioned (Gen 12, Gen 15, Gen 17) does it mention either Sarah or Hagar. Instead, it is repeated, the covenant is between God and Abraham, and in some parts, his seed, in which Ishmael is definitely included.

originally posted by: ChesterJohn
a reply to: Kapusta

I respectfully disagree

Allah only loves Muslims

My God loves all Men alike.

Allah was a name of an Idol before 600AD

My God was never an Idol.

that is just a couple of differences.

The Motto here at ATS is deny ignorance ... You sir bask in it !!!

Firstly God loves everyone who believes in him ,and who does not Transgress against him and create evil on earth. Be it Christain ,jew, etc . This next verse from the Quran might shock you !

Surely those who believe, and those who are Jews, and the Christians, and the Sabians, whoever believes in Allah and the Last day and does good, they shall have their reward from their Lord, and there is no fear for them, nor shall they grieve. Qur'an 2:62

What does that say ? That says the Whoever believes in ALLA( GOD) shall have their reward with him ( heaven) doesn't get more clear than that .

Now it does say in the Qur'an that the only religion that is accepted is "Islam" . I know what your thinking "see i told you Allah only excepts Islam" Nope ! its literally comes down to the meaning of the word ! the word "Islam" linguistically means submission or Surrender , thus meaning " a submission to god . Islam means to surrender to god ! So that verse says anyone who is in the state of Islam a full "surender /submission " to god shall be accepted to paradise .


Example : people make claims of being Christians or Jews or Muslims etc while committing very sinful acts. this is NOT full submission to god , no this is defying him while acting under the banner of that religion .


With that said let's address your "moon god " regurgitation. I'll use a neutral source since because i am sure if posted information from an Islamic Scholar you will reject it .

Allah as Moon-God is a claim put forth by some critics of Islam that the Islamic name for God, Allah, derives from a pagan Moon god in local Arabic mythology. The implication is that "Allah" is a different God from the Judeo-Christian deity and that Muslims are worshipping a "false god". The claim is most associated with the Christian apologist author Robert Morey, whose book The moon-god Allah in the archeology of the Middle East is a widely cited source of the idea that Allah is a moon-god. It has also been promoted in the cartoon tracts of Jack Chick.[1] The use of a lunar calendar and the prevalence of crescent moon imagery in Islam is said to be the result of this origination.[2] In 2009 anthropologist Gregory Starrett wrote, "a recent survey by the Council for American Islamic Relations reports that as many as 10% of Americans believe Muslims are pagans who worship a moon god or goddess, a belief energetically disseminated by some Christian activists."[3] Islamic and Western scholars have rejected these claims, one even calling them "insulting".[4] It is argued that "Allah" is just the word for "God" in Arabic, which ultimately derives from the same root as the Hebrew words "El" and "Elohim", both used in the Book of Genesis. Sociologist Lori Peek writes that, "Allah is simply the Arabic word meaning God. In fact people who speak Arabic, be they Christians, Jews or Muslims, often say 'Allah' to describe God, just as God is called 'Gott' in German and 'Dieu' in French."[1] While other gods were certainly referred to using this epithet, this is equally true of the Hebrew words. The Biblical commandment You shall have no other gods before me uses the same word, "Elohim", to refer to the "other" gods that is used for the creator god.[5] It is also true of the English, French and other European-language words for God. Indeed the English word "God" evolved from pagan Germanic terms for invocation; the Latin word Deus, from which "Dieu" derives, can be traced to the same root as Dyeus, which gives the names of the ancient Indo-European divinities Zeus, Jove and Dyaus Pitar. Ibrahim Hooper of the Council on American-Islamic Relations (CAIR) calls the Moon-God theories of Allah evangelical "fantasies" that are "perpetuated in their comic books"

That's from Wiki.


So when you are ready to let go of this ignorance you are holding tight onto ,then maybe we can have a decent discussion about these concerns you have about Islam.

I also want to Add that I am an ex Christan , So i am versed in both Religion .

a reply to: babloyi

SOrry to burst your bubble but read the following link.

Abrahams promise from God

Now Ishmail being of Abraham did get something BUT he was not th eprophesized one. Ishmail was to be a ass of a man and be as numerous as well as the sand. and he was to be a thorn in th eside of all until the end.

a reply to: yuppa
There was no covenant of a "prophesized one". Abraham was promised a prominent lineage, not just a single son.

I've often seen Christians frame "Palestine vs Israel" or "Islam vs Judaism" as "Ishmael vs Isaac", but that always tosses aside a very important fact: Islam doesn't consider Ishmael better than Isaac, or Ishmael a "prophesized one" or Ishmael "The important line", etc. To Islam both Ishmael and Isaac were important prophets who were part of the promise God made to Abraham.

a reply to: Kapusta

it is easy to call someone ignorant and still not prove anything.

without any interpretation

Qur’an 3:31-32—Say [O Muhammad]: If you love Allah, then follow me, Allah will love you and forgive you your faults, and Allah is Forgiving, Merciful. Say: Obey Allah and the Apostle; but if they turn back, then surely Allah does not love the unbelievers.

Qur’an 30:43-45—Then turn thy face straight to the right religion before there come from Allah the day which cannot be averted; on that day they shall become separated. Whoever disbelieves, he shall be responsible for his disbelief, and whoever does good, they prepare (good) for their own souls, that He may reward those who believe and do good out of His grace; surely He does not love the unbelievers.

Allahs love is dependent on an IF, and if someone does not do good and does not believe in Allah, Allah does not love them.

Rom 5:8 But God commendeth his love toward us, in that, while we were yet sinners, Christ died for us.

Remember to God unbelief is sin and all who don't believe in him are sinners and wicked even if they do good deeds. You don't have to love God to get his love or his forgiveness he loves man regardless, and because of that love he sent his son to die for man.

without interpretation these things are self evident in the verse above.

to quote another who put it correctly and agrees that God and Allah are not the same persons

“For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have everlasting life.” John 3:16

The bible teaches that God is not interested in “making you a Christian”, He desires to save you from the penalty of your sins which is an eternity in Hell. God’s salvation is a free gift that only needs to be received to become active.

It is the Great Transaction – your sins in exchange for His righteousness and a full and free eternal pardon.

The Allah of the Koran is not the same as the God of the Bible. Allah wants to make you a Muslim, God wants to set you free."

a reply to: ChesterJohn
Ok, so in the face of text stating that the Biblical God DOESN'T love all men alike, and in fact, explicitly stating that there are certain types of people God HATES or ABHORS, your understanding of "love" is now "Sent his son to commit suicide on our behalf"? God loves us that much?

Well, with such fast and loose definitions, sure, In Islam (according to the Quran), God loves mankind so much, the Prophet Muhammad was sent as a mercy unto all of mankind.

a reply to: ChesterJohn


*facePalm*


Lets look at that word "unbeliever" and what it means in Arabic . "unbeliever" means someone who does things that are not in accordance with the belief of god , Such as . Disbelieve in him all together , rape, murder, idol worship , anything that transgresses the laws of god. so when it says "unbeliever" all these acts fall under that category.

So now that we have that established , You are saying that god loves people who act in such manor ? .....

Well then i guess we can throw out "sin" since god loves all...

According to Christian doctrine "god died " for our sins ... This does not mean its OK to go and transgress upon the rules laid down by god and think everything will be a OK !

I have provided you enough proof that we worship the same god , as have other members , If you choose to be ignorant about this fact than we can't gain common ground .


I have a good friend who is an Orthodox Christian , Holds a Doctrine In Theology , We have been in many discussion about Islam and Christianity.

At no point has he ever agreed that we don't worship the same god , Our only differences is with the role that Jesus played .

Christians believe he was a part of god who died for sin ?

Muslims believe he was a prophet of god . Simple as that !


Their is no disagreement in the worship of God .

Example ! If Christians worship Jesus ( believing hes god)

and Muslims worship god Alone ! then are we not worshiping the same god ?

originally posted by: babloyi
a reply to: yuppa
There was no covenant of a "prophesized one". Abraham was promised a prominent lineage, not just a single son.

I've often seen Christians frame "Palestine vs Israel" or "Islam vs J that makes th eudaism" as "Ishmael vs Isaac", but that always tosses aside a very important fact: Islam doesn't consider Ishmael better than Isaac, or Ishmael a "prophesized one" or Ishmael "The important line", etc. To Islam both Ishmael and Isaac were important prophets who were part of the promise God made to Abraham.

well doing a little more research i have seen something that God "blessed" Ishmail to become a great nation as well. The thing about being a thorn in his brothers side applies to his half brothers side (in that time frame specifically) and doesnt really mention the future. Also i see a solution to the conflict between people who believe jesus message and muhammed.
Just respect each ones beliefs and stop going after them like they do.

I found something that clarifies my earlier statement about the prophesized children.

Genesis 17:15-22 God also said to Abraham, "As for Sarai your wife, you are no longer to call her Sarai; her name will be Sarah. I will bless her and will surely give you a son by her. I will bless her so that she will be the mother of nations; kings of peoples will come from her." Abraham fell facedown; he laughed and said to himself, "Will a son be born to a man a hundred years old? Will Sarah bear a child at the age of ninety?" And Abraham said to God, "If only Ishmael might live under your blessing!" Then God said, "Yes, but your wife Sarah will bear you a son, and you will call him Isaac. I will establish my covenant with him as an everlasting covenant for his descendants after him. And as for Ishmael, I have heard you: I will surely bless him; I will make him fruitful and will greatly increase his numbers. He will be the father of twelve rulers, and I will make him into a great nation. But my covenant I will establish with Isaac, whom Sarah will bear to you by this time next year." When he had finished speaking with Abraham, God went up from him.

originally posted by: ChesterJohn
a reply to: Kapusta

it is easy to call someone ignorant and still not prove anything.

without any interpretation

Qur’an 3:31-32—Say [O Muhammad]: If you love Allah, then follow me, Allah will love you and forgive you your faults, and Allah is Forgiving, Merciful. Say: Obey Allah and the Apostle; but if they turn back, then surely Allah does not love the unbelievers.

Qur’an 30:43-45—Then turn thy face straight to the right religion before there come from Allah the day which cannot be averted; on that day they shall become separated. Whoever disbelieves, he shall be responsible for his disbelief, and whoever does good, they prepare (good) for their own souls, that He may reward those who believe and do good out of His grace; surely He does not love the unbelievers.

Allahs love is dependent on an IF, and if someone does not do good and does not believe in Allah, Allah does not love them.

Rom 5:8 But God commendeth his love toward us, in that, while we were yet sinners, Christ died for us.

Remember to God unbelief is sin and all who don't believe in him are sinners and wicked even if they do good deeds. You don't have to love God to get his love or his forgiveness he loves man regardless, and because of that love he sent his son to die for man.

without interpretation these things are self evident in the verse above.

to quote another who put it correctly and agrees that God and Allah are not the same persons

“For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have everlasting life.” John 3:16

The bible teaches that God is not interested in “making you a Christian”, He desires to save you from the penalty of your sins which is an eternity in Hell. God’s salvation is a free gift that only needs to be received to become active.

It is the Great Transaction – your sins in exchange for His righteousness and a full and free eternal pardon.

The Allah of the Koran is not the same as the God of the Bible. Allah wants to make you a Muslim, God wants to set you free."

Hmmm..... and calling unbelievers dogs and swine is unconditional love I guess?

Do not give that which is holy to the dogs, nor cast your pearls before the swine, lest they trample them under their feet, and turn around and tear you in pieces (Matthew 7:6, HBFV)

Way to go!

a reply to: Unlettered.

OT coveneant along with its laws has given away to the new covenant and as such those OT laws have faded to the current covenant of redemtion by faith in God and not by works alone.

a reply to: yuppa
Thanks for your response, and I'm glad everything is cleared up. However, with respect to your response to Unlettered, what he quoted was not from the Old Testament.
Also, while some may consider the laws of the old covenant void now (not really supported by scripture, but ok), the fact that they were given, and the statements as to the characteristics of God and what is approved of still apply.

originally posted by: babloyi
a reply to: yuppa
Thanks for your response, and I'm glad everything is cleared up. However, with respect to your response to Unlettered, what he quoted was not from the Old Testament.
Also, while some may consider the laws of the old covenant void now (not really supported by scripture, but ok), the fact that they were given, and the statements as to the characteristics of God and what is approved of still apply.

Spirit of the laws yes. HEre is a page that explains this much better than me. See this i like because it made me want to research this.

The old laws and if they apply today.

Teh ten was given specifically to Israel though for one example. Look under the part asking "Did God Intend for Old Testament Laws to Be Binding Today?" specifically.

a reply to: Kapusta

you know what, if you have to go to a foreign language it means you only what to change the meaning. If you can't understand it in plain English you will never understand it in any other language.

Christians aren't free to sin.

Your friend may be an orthodox something but that does not make him saved nor understand who God is.

I disagree with you so let's leave it at that.

originally posted by: yuppa

originally posted by: babloyi
a reply to: yuppa
Thanks for your response, and I'm glad everything is cleared up. However, with respect to your response to Unlettered, what he quoted was not from the Old Testament.
Also, while some may consider the laws of the old covenant void now (not really supported by scripture, but ok), the fact that they were given, and the statements as to the characteristics of God and what is approved of still apply.

Spirit of the laws yes. HEre is a page that explains this much better than me. See this i like because it made me want to research this.

The old laws and if they apply today.

Teh ten was given specifically to Israel though for one example. Look under the part asking "Did God Intend for Old Testament Laws to Be Binding Today?" specifically.

I'll add that the first day of the week is a day of worship though we are not commanded too we also have the option of everyday holy unto the Lord. Col 2:9 if I am not mistaken.

originally posted by: ChesterJohn

originally posted by: yuppa

originally posted by: babloyi
a reply to: yuppa
Thanks for your response, and I'm glad everything is cleared up. However, with respect to your response to Unlettered, what he quoted was not from the Old Testament.
Also, while some may consider the laws of the old covenant void now (not really supported by scripture, but ok), the fact that they were given, and the statements as to the characteristics of God and what is approved of still apply.

Spirit of the laws yes. HEre is a page that explains this much better than me. See this i like because it made me want to research this.

The old laws and if they apply today.

Teh ten was given specifically to Israel though for one example. Look under the part asking "Did God Intend for Old Testament Laws to Be Binding Today?" specifically.

I'll add that the first day of the week is a day of worship though we are not commanded too we also have the option of everyday holy unto the Lord. Col 2:9 if I am not mistaken.

Easy way to know youre doing what is asked it to follow thos e3 things Jesus said to do. Remember not through works of th e law alone shall any achieve heaven.

a reply to: yuppa

I achieved heaven the moment I believed on Jesus Christ finished work on the Cross for my Salvation.