Channel Tunnel: '2,000 migrants' tried to enter

a reply to: grainofsand

I am 3 neighbors from you, I destroyed your garden (maybe you don't know but I did!)... you can't even sit outside outside anymore enjoying the sun. But you ask your neighbor please, please can I sit in yours and enjoy the sun!??
And since I really really don't like you -just having my big smile looking at you that you have this problem but asking your neighbor for help is priceless!

originally posted by: Pluginn
a reply to: grainofsand

I am 3 neighbors from you, I destroyed your garden (maybe you don't know but I did!)... you can't even sit outside outside anymore enjoying the sun. But you ask your neighbor please, please can I sit in yours and enjoy the sun!??
And since I really really don't like you -just having my big smile looking at you that you have this problem but asking your neighbor for help is priceless!

Sorry, I haven't a clue what message you are trying to convey.

a reply to: grainofsand

I'm the UK neighbor.

a reply to: Pluginn

So what?
The UK is meeting all its international obligations, and lawfully defending its border.
The migrants in France are choosing not to claim asylum there so they are choosing not to receive assistance from the French state which would be similar to what they could expect in the UK.
The people in France are no longer fleeing oppression, they are in a safe country.

What problem do you have with that?
Again, the UK is meeting all its international obligations. Maybe you should take your whining to the UN and campaign for the world to change its conventions regarding refugees?

The immigrants are not accepted in France or in some other EU country most likely.. so they try the UK as last resource? So yes you are right, the UK only gets the last ones most likely which didn't get refugee status in other EU country's. Don't have the numbers at hand but the UK I think got it way easy....

LOL you know in my country, Holland they get money when not accepted, about 1700 euro's so they can go back and start a new life. Everything is messed up that's for sure.. Maybe in the UK when not accepted they also get some money?
Sorry that I crossed my borders but still I do think UK shouldn't complain at all (and the UK although anti EU is part from the EU) since most of the refugees lately are from country's where they brought hell & chaos for stupid reasons.. but complaining like hell about all these people coming to Europe!

originally posted by: Pluginn
the UK only gets the last ones most likely which didn't get refugee status in other EU country's.

The migrants at Calais have not claimed asylum anywhere yet, they are saving that until they can get to the UK.
Perhaps your emotions are clouding your reasoning skills?

The migrants in Calais only need to claim asylum in France and the French republic will provide similar assistance as would be expected in the UK.
They choose not to claim asylum in France because doing so sinks any plans of doing it in the UK.
They choose to live in a shanty camp while attempting to enter the UK illegally.

They are NOT fleeing oppression anymore, they are just being choosy about which safe nation they want to claim asylum in.
No sympathy from me, they are safe now, so if they choose to not claim asylum in France then I support the UK government defending the border.

originally posted by: crazyewokSee that why the UK is the fastes growing economy in the developed world and the EU is tanking. We in the UK understand money is not infinite.

Actually - no, you are NOT the fastest growing economy: loyal EU member Ireland is, loyal member Spain is actually doing quite well too. Well, according to the Guardian at least, not sure if you'd trust that source

Hospital and schools cost money and we are only JUST getting money back from the banks.

Then the government should do what it does best: print money, hire people (there are still unemployed people that want work in the UK) and of course, use the new workforce they are being offered right at their borders. Also, hospitals and schools may cost money, but in the end a smarter and healthy population saves a lot of money too - even can help produce better goods (or more, if there is still need for them).

Plus hospitals and schools take TIME to build, you don't just erect them overnight. Certainly not in time to solve the current problem.

Barracks can be erected literally overnight, decent building can be build in months. It's not that I think that these buildings should earn a architectural award..

a reply to: ForteanOrg

Ok I've been to Amsterdam many times in the 90's. Once walking back to the camp site after I'd lost my mates in Dam, got the ferry across from back of central station, steadily walking back to campsite on my own, suddenly guy appears from nowhere and attempts to trip me up in a weird roll a few times, mental. Guy certainly didn't look like Mr Van den Holland, actually spoke with Arab accent and looked more like a Mr Van den Morocco.

Other time me and friend got lost in centre of Dam., couldn't find way back to Sports Bar Hostel, this guy we asked said give me a couple of Euros I'll take you there. A couple of minutes later he went down thois alley, suddenly half a dozen young Turkish/Arab types one putting a blade to my mates neck.

You have a great countryin the Netherlands my friends, great museums, fine beer, great people (whos humour matches Brits like no other in Europe) but all my bad experiences there were with your immigrant nutters.

a reply to: Punisher75

I chuckled at that..The image of it

Pluginn:

So, Britain, France and other country's all agreed with supporting rebels/terrorists to get rid of Qadaffi, they are responsible that country is now a mess.

No, they are not responsible, the Libyan people are. It is now up to them to rebuild the country how they want it. Perhaps, you were more than happy to have them live under a dictator, but not for them to have to accept the responsibility of cleaning their country up? Everything with you is all about degrees of sufferance, isn't it? Don't kill them, put them in internment camps. Don't put them in internment camps, just let them live at liberty in poverty, and so on. Each choice with you is better than the one before, but ultimately, as long as you can criticise developed European countries, you're happy.

Well in basic I agree with you but people from those country's coming to Europe we should accept since it's our own fault.

What a strange logic you have. The idea about getting rid of a dictator is to free up the people so that they can choose how they want their country to be. Libyans need to organise themselves, choose leaders, and start again, that is the responsibility they were handed when Qaddaffi was bombed by Western countries. Ultimately, it was the Libyan people who disposed of Qaddaffi, all the West did with their bombing campaigns was to weaken his strength and grip on the people. It wasn't an invitation to those people to come over to Western European countries as migrants, it was an invitation to accept responsibility for their country.

ForteanOrg:

To me, these are just people. I think we should try to make them part of our culture.

Ah well, this is the crux of the matter. Let them integrate culturally, only they can't, because the host culture and their culture are 'alien' to one another. British culture especially is 'alien' to theirs as theirs is to ours. Britain is a very stable culture and it is that they seek...a stability into which they can come and live by their culture. There is no integration, there is only a presence.

For Britons, which I am one, the reaction to others cultures is not an irrational fear. When Britain declared war on Germany it did not do so for humanitarian reasons, but for reasons of self-preservation. That war ended, and British culture, for all its advantages and faults survived intact, and continued. Then over the years after the war, another perceived threat to British culture emerged, more insidious and just as damaging as warfare, the idea of cultural integration....multiculturalism.

Multiculturalism can only be successful if the host culture is diluted and changed in order to accommodate incoming cultures. Britons unconsciously went into self-preservation mode to safeguard their culture, and it is this you seeing being expressed on these pages, and in the comments of British newspapers. I am British, that is my culture, it is the host culture in Britain, and I want it preserved, undamaged and unchanged. Multiculturalism is not about 'integration', it is about 'presence', the presence of other cultures, no matter how alien and abrasive and undermining they are to the host culture. We are all people, yes, but our mindsets are entirely different, and this prohibits any form of integration.

I don't want to see people from other countries dying trying to reach Britain, but I'll be honest with you, I don't want them here in Britain, I want to see them repatriated back to their own country, because that is where their future is. They have to create the country they want, so that their culture can be the host culture. Britons, and Europeans, Americans, Russians, all went through the process of creating the countries they wanted, and it took centuries and it took many lives, but that is the cost for creating one's own country.

Western countries can aid Africa and Middle-eastern countries by helping the people in those countries get rid of their dictators, but then follows the responsibility of taking ownership of the land you want to be your country. They are not doing that, they are constantly at war with themselves, primarily out of tribal warfare, each tribe wanting to be the leading tribe, with their belief system being the leading belief system. No matter what Western countries do for them, good or bad, they will always be at conflict with each other, each will always be vying for the throne.

I say this: if you want to come and live in British society and British culture, you leave the culture you are running from behind, and adopt British culture. You truly integrate, and you change your mindset. If you cannot do that, don't come.

originally posted by: ufoorbhunterOk I've been to Amsterdam many times in the 90's.

Ah, yes, Amsterdam, that hell-hole filled with drugs, hookers and weird looking people that try to rob you... I often wonder why especially Brits seem to be so fond of it. I mean: in England, they're all opposed to sex, drugs and rock and roll..

Big cities are invariably filled with many people. So statistically, there is a very big chance you'd stumble into some criminals. In many case, they aren't even really criminals, but petty thieves or drunk rough young ones that want to impress others. If adressed properly they will leave you alone. But you need a keen eye and some experience to see the difference between some drunk youngsters and a real gang, though the latter is exceptional where the first is all too common in big cities.

I've been in Amsterdam many times, both as a tourist and on business, and never had any trouble there. I've been to London too, many times. Recently I stayed in Camden Town, and one night was approached by a young gentleman whom went under the name Danny Cocaine. Really. Nice guy, actually. But I can imagine that many foreigners, not used to the specific culture in Camden Town, might get the wrong idea when they were addressed - right in the middle of the night on their way home - by a slightly drunk guy in a hood, that says "Hey, I'm Danny Cocaine, do you have any money on you?"

You have a great countryin the Netherlands my friends, great museums, fine beer, great people (whos humour matches Brits like no other in Europe) but all my bad experiences there were with your immigrant nutters.

Yes, we have criminals in The Netherlands. You mention immigrants - but actually they almost never cause any problem at all. We DO have a problem with some of the children of immigrants. They were born in the Netherlands, but their parents did never integratel into our society. This because they expected to work here for just a few years, then they would return to their native country. In the meantime the DID produce children and of course - like you would do - raised these children trying to convey as much of "their" culture as they could, fully expecting to return home with them one day. But these kids are literally caught between 2 worlds and respect neither. This is indeed a real problem, and we try to resolve it. But we will NOT throw these kids out, nor their parents.

But the 'migrants' that are now trying to get to England - well, I don't think they want to return, so it is only logical they will try to do their utmost to be proper Brits.

originally posted by: ForteanOrg
But the 'migrants' that are now trying to get to England - well, I don't think they want to return, so it is only logical they will try to do their utmost to be proper Brits.

I do not agree with your logic.
They are in a safe country and breaking the law already trying to enter the UK illegally.
Slashing lorry curtains, cutting fences, trespass, and attempting to enter another nation illegally. Nope, they are already breaking many French laws right now. Logic would dictate that they would hold UK laws with similar contempt.

If they were fleeing oppression I would understand it, but they are not, they are in a safe country refusing to claim asylum there and breaking many laws in an attempt to leave that safe country.
Your logic is flawed.

originally posted by: grainofsand] I do not agree with your logic.

Surprisingly

They are in a safe country and breaking the law already trying to enter the UK illegally.

Actually, most migrants that speak French will stay in France. And if we hadn't created an artificial plughole between the UK and the continent, nobody would even have noticed that these migrants existed, they would have arrived in London long ago and would have joined the legion of underpayed illegal workers there. Mind you, I'm not cheering, I'm simply observing.

Now, say you had a choice: living in France or living in the UK - what would you do? By the same logic that you would apply - with the possible exception of being born there - these migrants would choose the UK. Or, to be more exact: London. See, they, like you, probably do not speak French. If they spoke French they would have applied there. Also, many of them already have familiy, friends, landsmen living in London. And of course, there is British propaganda, suggesting that the UK is the greatest nation in the world, with plenty of opportunities for all that like to work.

Slashing lorry curtains, cutting fences, trespass, and attempting to enter another nation illegally. Nope, they are already breaking many French laws right now. Logic would dictate that they would hold UK laws with similar contempt.

I agree: what they do is illegal. But only if they do it in Calais. Because all other borders aren't guarded, and refugees / migrants can travel freely from one European nation to the next European nation without being stopped. But only if they want to go to the UK - only then - are they stopped. It's the unnatural act of stopping them that creates the problem. In my country, we don't stop them and I haven't noticed any problem yet.

If they were fleeing oppression I would understand it, but they are not, they are in a safe country refusing to claim asylum there and breaking many laws in an attempt to leave that safe country. Your logic is flawed.

They are in a country they don't like. They have friends and family in the UK. They speak English. They believe that the UK is some kind of paradise. You only make things worse: like a child will try to do dangerous things to get the cookie from the cookie-jar that its parents put on top of the cupboard, so will these migrants do anything to get to London.

You'd be better off letting them in and let them see for themselves. After all, either there is work - and if so, they can do work and help you with your economic marvel - or there is none, in which case they will leave and report back to their kin: "Don't even try, it's all rubbish: the UK is not a paradise by far if you're a Muslim, speak half-baked English and do not have much of an education. No jobs here, they all keep them to themselves!"

At Forteanorg.

You are taking the mickey! They cannot ever be a proper Brit, they will always be that from which they came. Why is it so hard for you to either understand that or accept it?

Muslims for instance, cannot ever be proper Brits, their culture discounts them from ever being so. Their belief system is entirely at odds with the British way of life. Their mindset is wholly non-British. Yet, they like Britain because it is a very stable host culture, and they can live by their culture here. Even Muslims born in this country might tell you they are British, but they will always add the clarifying suffix of 'Muslim' at the end. They are not British, they are pseudo-British, but always Muslim first. To be British, you have to be able to say just British, and that is the identifying clarifier of ones culture. There is nothing else to add.

These people coming to Britain only want a stable country so that they can be who they are, but who they are is damaging to the host culture. I have nothing whatsoever against them as human beings, it is their culture with which I am at odds; and before you think it, I am not racist. I don't believe anyone could be racist. No one can dislike or hate another person simply because of their genetics, or simply because of their colour. You might as well be hateful towards a rainbow...it doesn't make sense. Race isn't the issue, and never was...culture and belief system and mindset was always the issue.

People are not what they are because of colour, it isn't what defines them, it is their culture and their belief systems and their mindset that defines them. It is in these differences between human beings where tensions arise. I don't care what colour a person is, only their culture makes an impact on me. If it is positive, I will welcome it, but if it is negative I won't.

These people trying to gain access to the UK...illegally, come from failed states and countries, and from negatively-impacting cultures. Why would we want to welcome them into our midst?

originally posted by: ForteanOrg
It's the unnatural act of stopping them that creates the problem.

Nothing 'unnatural' about it, the UK was not stupid enough to sign up to the Schengen Agreement.

You defend the people slashing lorry curtains, threatening drivers, cutting fences, trespassing, and attempting to illegally enter the UK from a safe nation where they can claim asylum if they wanted assistance.
Yes, your logic is flawed, and pretty much everything you say is emotionally based opinion, but not logical.
If they disregard French law, when they are in a safe country then logic dictates that they will break UK law if they feel they need to.

Either way, tough luck, the UK is meeting all its international obligations by lawfully protecting its border.
There is no requirement for the UK to take migrants from a safe country, none at all.
The UK government is supported by most citizens in its stance so nothing is going to change any time soon.
I suggest you take your whining to the UN and request that international conventions on refugees are ammended instead of bleating about it on ATS.

originally posted by: ForteanOrg
And of course, there is British propaganda, suggesting that the UK is the greatest nation in the world, with plenty of opportunities for all that like to work.
:

Whoa so weird...
I could have sworn that everyone thought this about the U.S.
Thank God...
Anyway U.K. I love ya man, sorry you got to be the Bad Guys this week. Maybe we can do this switching thing like twice a month or something that way we don't neither one of us have to get too fatigued?

a reply to: Punisher75

Haha, we can handle whining Europeans no problem!

a reply to: ForteanOrg

Yes you are right about the children of immigrants being the big issue. First generation are generally the excellent people and really go for it, just the same here in the UK. First generation work their guts out, attempt to integrate and become more British than anyone. Then second generation, time to blow up the buses, suicide bomb our undergrounds, create like minded gangs in city centres that terrorise others................... So why let more in when they have not been invited to come here?

Plus they are not qualified to claim asylum as this is not the first safe country they have arrived at.

originally posted by: ufoorbhunter
Plus they are not qualified to claim asylum as this is not the first safe country they have arrived at.

Which is why ForteanOrg needs to go bleat to the UN about international conventions on refugees.
The UK is meeting all its international obligations while it lawfully defends its border.

The other silly point "we don't have problems with migrants in the Netherlands" or words to that effect, of course they don't, how many people in the world actually speak Dutch as a first or second language?
No wonder they aren't making their way there!

Either way, it matters not how much other Europeans bleat about it, the ball is in the UK's court, and there is nothing anyone can do to stop the UK government defending its border.
That pleases me.

a reply to: grainofsand

TBH, when I was in Lisse for the tulip show earlier this year, all the Dutch people spoke perfect, even if accented, English. I don't think the migrants not speaking Dutch is a main reason, as the Dutch speak perfect English.