Channel Tunnel: '2,000 migrants' tried to enter

originally posted by: elysiumfire
At Forteanorg.

Good evening (it's evening here while I'm writing this) Elysiumfire,

You are taking the mickey! They cannot ever be a proper Brit, they will always be that from which they came. Why is it so hard for you to either understand that or accept it?

Let's see..

In London, roughly 60 percent of the people that live there are white Brits. Then we have the Asian Brits: say 19 percent. Thirteen percent are black Brits. Ah, we forgot the Caribbean and African Brits, and the Brits that were the result of crossbreeding: mixed, say 5 percent. The remaining say 3 percent are Arabs and other ethic groups.

Roughly 40 percent of all people in London are foreign born. What was it again you were assuming? Do you really feel that 40 percent of the population of London "will always be that from which they came" .. ? What a joke then: the capital city of your "British" nation - is overwhelmingly swamped with foreigners?

But wait, on closer look it's worse! Even the remaining 60 percent of what you might say are "real Brits" - the white Brits - are mostly the result of a mix of various people from all over Europe. Romans, Welshmen, Scotts, Irish, Vikings, Dutch, German, French.. the list goes on an on. So, what is "British" then? Surely it has nothing to do with race,

Muslims for instance, cannot ever be proper Brits

There are about 1,5 million Muslims in the UK, I'd be quite hesitant to say that neither of them are British!

their culture discounts them from ever being so. Their belief system is entirely at odds with the British way of life.

What gave you THAT idea? Sure, there are fundamentalists, but most Muslims despise the acts of violence, certainly British Muslims.

To be British, you have to be able to say just British, and that is the identifying clarifier of ones culture. There is nothing else to add.

That's quite absurd. So, we're not supposed to mention the - say - British Indians? Or the British Pakistani? British Guyanse? British Christians? British Catholics? British Anglicans? And so on..?

To be British is - to recognize the values, Laws and ethics of the British society. That society is not a constant - it is constantly changing, as are it's values, Laws and ethics. Yes, if a large part of the British population accepts some religion, it may well end up influencing that culture. Such is life. You seem to think that you can preserve a culture that fits you, that suits you - well, no, you can't. All you can do is live an example. If that example pleases others, they will follow it. The Soviet era has proven that it is quite useless to put a wall around a country to preserve its values. If you think that your "British" way of life is special, live a life that demonstrate these values. Others will follow. That's the only way: keep calm and carry on and all that.

Race isn't the issue, and never was...culture and belief system and mindset was always the issue.

Indeed. And the free exchange of ideas and freedom of religion - whic I believe are core values of the European culture - including the British culture.

If it is positive, I will welcome it, but if it is negative I won't.

Agreed. So, let these migrant in, let them come. If you refuse their ideas, don't welcome them. But welcome these people. If they like your "British" culture, they will adapt to it. And if you like their culture, you will adapt to it too. If you don't believe me, think of me the next time you order a cappucino, eat a curry, dance to a mambo, drink that disgusting continental (often even Dutch) brew they call "lager", order a pizza, sushi..

These people trying to gain access to the UK...illegally, come from failed states and countries, and from negatively-impacting cultures. Why would we want to welcome them into our midst?

Because they are people, they can offer services, have a culture that is often older than ours and are mostly quite moderate people. Only a small fraction of them is fundamentalist. Also because WE destroyed these "failed" states - we were the ones that had to fight a war on terror, barged in, threw their legal governments out making room for gangs and religious freaks. We caused most of this and now it comes back to bite us.

But as always: the strongest culture will win. And I'll bet you anything it will NOT be the fundamentalist muslim culture, it will be a mix of many cultures in the world, but predominantly the European culture. I'm not worried at all

originally posted by: BMorris
a reply to: grainofsand

TBH, when I was in Lisse for the tulip show earlier this year, all the Dutch people spoke perfect, even if accented, English. I don't think the migrants not speaking Dutch is a main reason, as the Dutch speak perfect English.

True, and I suggested that the Netherlands could be a good second option for those in Calais to the member a few pages ago.
He agreed, sorted

ForteanOrg:

To be British is - to recognize the values, Laws and ethics of the British society.

Not at all. To be British is to 'BE' British. I could recognise the values, laws and ethics of Danes, Swedes, Norwegians, French, Germans, Spaniards, Greeks, Portuguese, Swiss, etc, I could recognise all the values of European nations, but that recognition would never make me any one of them. Recognition only allows for mimicry, it doesn't allow to 'BE'. So you're wrong.

British-ness is having the legacy of British History running through your veins, and to understand that British culture is not any other culture. No matter how you ignore and skirt the issue, there is no getting away from the fact that British culture is a development of a mindset centuries old. British culture is an amalgam of English, Scottish, Welsh, and Irish interaction, good and bad, all through these island's long history where the individual cultures of these 4 nations merged into that which is termed British, yet still retaining something of their original cultures, because they are cultures of similarity, even in their differences. Each nation contributed and contributes to all things British.

Want to see the result of Dutch integration with a sub-Saharan culture, look no further than South Africa...what a success that was, not. The cultures were and still are alien to each other. Fact of the matter is, for all the abidance we can follow with each other as human beings, we cannot abide each other through our cultures...that is where the conflict is.

originally posted by: elysiumfire
To be British is to 'BE' British.

To be or not to be - that's the question indeed

British-ness is having the legacy of British History running through your veins

So, indeed: you believe that the 40 percent of the population of your "British" capital city is .. not British??

Come again?

and to understand that British culture is not any other culture. No matter how you ignore and skirt the issue, there is no getting away from the fact that British culture is a development of a mindset centuries old. British culture is an amalgam of English, Scottish, Welsh, and Irish interaction, good and bad, all through these island's long history where the individual cultures of these 4 nations merged into that which is termed British, yet still retaining something of their original cultures, because they are cultures of similarity, even in their differences. Each nation contributed and contributes to all things British.

As did the Indian, Asian, Roman, Viking ... and many more cultures / races. It was - and is - a process of integration, fusion, assimilation if you want. This process is ongoing and will never stop. But you seem to think that you can stop that process - the ever continuing evolution. You want to stop it, because you think that this is the best "culture" there is, methinks. You're so wrong.

Development will continue. Muslims will contribute part of their culture - as did (and do) the Jews, as did (and do) many races and / or cultures. It never stops! So, you're a convervative - a person that lives in the past and wants to conserve that past - hence the name.

Want to see the result of Dutch integration with a sub-Saharan culture, look no further than South Africa...what a success that was, not.

Actually, it was and is quite succesful. But - South Africa was "discovered" by Sr Dias (from Portugal) - and yes, there were Dutch influences. But also British: remember Livingstone? And Capetown - was British for a long time! So, even there we can see that many cultures influence others.

The cultures were and still are alien to each other. Fact of the matter is, for all the abidance we can follow with each other as human beings, we cannot abide each other through our cultures...that is where the conflict is.

Such nonsense. Again: fusion and integration have been much more important than separation. This holds very much true today - look at this forum, for example.

You are living in a dream - a dream of days long forgotten. Your capital city now is populated by people that weren't even born there - 40 percent of them to be exact. Still, I think London is British. It is what Brits and Dutch have in common: we struggle but - integrate.

ForteanOrg:

Your capital city now is populated by people that weren't even born there - 40 percent of them to be exact. Still, I think London is British.

London, as the capital city of England, doesn't represent the rest of England. It is acknowledged as a fully multicultural city, a world city if you like, but there is not any form of integration between the cultures on show there, there is only presence, they stand side-by-side each other, and not in and of each other. Diametrically opposing cultures cannot integrate, the differences are too stark and severe, and no compromise could ever be found, only an accord, which is not integration.

To be honest, using London is a poor illustration of what British culture truly is, outside of London, is where you'll find it. Not in the big cities, because British culture has been diluted there, you'll find it in the small towns and villages where multiculturalism has yet to take root and grip the host culture. London is entirely different from the rest of England. No other city in England is as internationally multicultural as London, and long may that continue.

If your view of British culture is that of London, you have no idea what British culture is. It isn't just the pomp and splendour that is put on show in London for the tourists. The beating heart of British culture is that of the quiet and serene village scene, and its pulse is still strong all over the British Isles, except in London.

originally posted by: elysiumfire
The beating heart of British culture is that of the quiet and serene village scene, and its pulse is still strong all over the British Isles

Agreed. Anyone who has built a perception of multiculturalism in the UK based solely on visiting London is deeply misguided.

Of the 9 designated EU regions in England, mine, the South West, is nothing like London, it couldn't be further from it, even in our three major cities.
Our population is made up as follows:60.4% Christian, 1% Muslim, 0.4% Buddhist, 0.3% Hindu, 0.2% Pagan, 28.2 No Religion, the rest 'Others', Jedi's etc.
ons.gov.uk

I support all calls for the UK to conform to all international obligations regarding refugees, and right now it is, while it lawfully defends its border.
I do not support any calls for the UK to take migrants from safe nations. It is not a requirement under international law or conventions.

I welcome any genuine asylum seeker who makes it to the UK as their first safe place, but people in a safe country who are slashing lorry trailer curtains, threatening drivers, criminally damaging fences, and trespassing in an attempt to illegally enter another safe country, no, not so much of a welcome from me.

For the ones that get through I wonder if we can make a trade with the USA?

1 of our illegal muslims for 2 of there illegal mexicans sound fair?

originally posted by: crazyewok
For the ones that get through I wonder if we can make a trade with the USA?

1 of our illegal muslims for 2 of there illegal mexicans sound fair?

A question: whom employ all those illegal migrants? Who is buying their services, their goods?

originally posted by: grainofsandAgreed. Anyone who has built a perception of multiculturalism in the UK based solely on visiting London is deeply misguided.

So, London is not the measure of "British culture" is it? Could have fooled me: I've been visiting museums there, listened to well-played music in RAH, visited musicals and plays in West End, enjoyed the Camden Town atmosphere, have seen the houses of Parliament, heard Yeoman talk about the gruesome English history, sat in many a pub and only ordered fine British ales there - ate shepherds pie, fish and chips... could have fooled me.

But - if that's not British culture - what then IS? What is it then - apart from blatant xenofobism - that makes the "British culture" you seem to like so much so much better than what I frequently experienced (and enjoyed) in London?

LOL Well man I don't know if you have the room for all of them to be honest. We have like 11 million of them.

a reply to: ForteanOrg

Britain is all the places I've lived which are not London
Go bleat and whine to the UN about international conventions on asylum seekers/refugees.
Right now the UK is conforming with all its international obligations.

Your arguments are solely emotionally based.
International laws, treaties, and conventions disagree.

originally posted by: Punisher75
LOL Well man I don't know if you have the room for all of them to be honest. We have like 11 million of them.

I didnt say we would take all of them

Just swap say 25,000 muslims for 50,000 mexicans.

Plus mexican foods crap here so we could use some good mexican resteraunts

originally posted by: ForteanOrg
So, London is not the measure of "British culture" is it? Could have fooled me:

I think you're falling in to the trap of thinking British culture is constant. I work in London twice a week and it is a city with wide cultural variations as befits the premier multinational city in the world. London is the better for it. I live in the West Country where South West English culture is predominant, although even that is variable. We talk different and life is more relaxed and less arse-tight. My wife's family is from the English North East and cultural differences abound.

All countries are like this, including Holland.

British culture, in it's diversity, is capable of accommodating different cultures (so long as they are willing, which is not the case for some immigrants), and has done since the dawn of time. However, in keeping to topic, I have to say that the British Isles are full and just cannot squeeze any more people in. England, or the UK, is just not willing to take more people from outside of the EU. Why is that so difficult for people to grasp?

originally posted by: paraphi
England, or the UK, is just not willing to take more people from outside of the EU. Why is that so difficult for people to grasp?

Oh he grasps it well enough, just disagrees.
Tough luck that all international law, treaties, and conventions are in line with the current course of action of the UK government.
Bleeding heart is all.

originally posted by: grainofsand
a reply to: ForteanOrg

Britain is all the places I've lived which are not London

Well, I wonder if you really believe that your variant of "British culture" can beat what is offered in West End, in the many good quality pubs in London, in the theatres and museums there, the excellent transport system.. all brought to us by a population of which 40 percent wasn't even born in the UK. Also, can you name me ONE quality that is exclusive to what you label "British culture"? It's all hogwash - and dangerous hogwash too. It's the same hogwash that made Germans think they were special: the famous Aryan race, the master race. Bah, humbug.

I have been all over Europe (and that includes England) and all I ever saw were similar patterns. Which, to me, makes perfect sense: we're all human beings.

Go bleat and whine to the UN about international conventions on asylum seekers/refugees.

Your're quite stuck in that groove, aren't you

Well, once again: I'm not representing any country on that level. We are discussing this merely because we have some time at our hands and share an interest in the world, politics, weirdness and conspiracies. We interact, may even learn from it, but don't be fooled into thinking that posting here will change anything.

Right now the UK is conforming with all its international obligations.

Of course. I never said it didn't. To the best of my knowledge all countries in the world say they conform to all their international obligations, including North Korea. So, what's so special about that? Does that solve the problem the UK created by willingly enforcing selective border control?

Again: nowhere in Europe do we have any problems near our borders with migrants. I've not seen anybody threatening innocent truck drivers on the borders between say France and Spain, not between Germany and The Netherlands etc. That's because we now generally accept that it is quite useless to try to put walls around your country: if you are a strong culture you will welcome others, learn from them and - hopefully - help them to improve their culture.

Your arguments are solely emotionally based.

Being a human being involves having a heart, you know. Yes, it hurts me if I see a fellow man drown, get shot, denied his essential rights. That's emotion, indeed. I'm not one of those British rural robots you seem to fancy so much, I'm sorry.

International laws, treaties, and conventions disagree.

Indeed. Strangely enough all other European nations also uphold their treaties - but we do not see any problems near our borders. You remind me a bit of that old joke: one day, before the chunnel even existed, there was a huge bank of fog over the channel. It had hung there for days and ships weren't able to penetrate it. So, the Times wrote an editorial about it, and its heading read: "Continent isolated!"

originally posted by: paraphiI think you're falling in to the trap of thinking British culture is constant.

I hope I don't. That would be similar to thinking that all Muslims should be banned because there are Muslim criminals - and I believe you can tell by now that that is not exactly how I see things

I work in London twice a week and it is a city with wide cultural variations as befits the premier multinational city in the world. London is the better for it.

We wholeheartedly agree. And it also demonstrates that fusion of cultures often results in a new, stronger culture.

I live in the West Country where South West English culture is predominant, although even that is variable. We talk different and life is more relaxed and less arse-tight. My wife's family is from the English North East and cultural differences abound.

Similarly, there are huge differences between the various people that live in my country. In general there are big differences between city-life and rural life, it's like that everywhere, nothing special about that.

All countries are like this, including Holland.

From what I've seen: yes.

British culture, in it's diversity, is capable of accommodating different cultures (so long as they are willing, which is not the case for some immigrants),

Inevitably they well stick out like a shore thumb, feel uncomfortable, uneasy - so unless they are forced by circumstances beyond their control (with the exception of the occasional spy, I guess) - they will try to get out, get back to where they came from or at least find a place that has a more similar culture. I haven't ever studied it, but I would not be surprised if there were large groups of refugees that flee from one - say - Muslim country to another, preferring that over living in a culture that allows atrocities like drinking alcohol, having just one wife (and the bloody wife has the same rights you have), being exposed to pornographic displays everywhere and the frigging women are allowed to show legs, feet, arms and even their faces to all man!

However, in keeping to topic, I have to say that the British Isles are full and just cannot squeeze any more people in. England, or the UK, is just not willing to take more people from outside of the EU. Why is that so difficult for people to grasp?

Because it is nonsense. Britain is not full, nor is my country. Go visit Macau, Hong Kong or Singapore to get an idea of what "full" is. Or Gibraltar, for that matter. But mainland England? On average the UK has roughly 260 inhabitants per square mile, where, for example, my country, The Netherlands has 400. But we don't have border control - you do. Clearly "being full" has nothing to do with it.

There are huge differences between parts of the country, like in yours. The funny thing is that people tend to flee to the busiest parts of the country, adding - to paraphrase a famous Brit - to the already existing surplus of the population. Also, in general, there are too many people on this planet, but most of them are born in poor countries, adding to the problem.

All in all, we need to face reality: we will see an ever growing stream of migrants in the next decades, unless we help these people build up their country. Or - what we seem to prefer - kill as many of them and their leaders, which creates a new influx of desperate people into our nation.

It's up to us.

a reply to: ForteanOrg

Let's go back to basics.

If the majority of Britons don't want an open border to non-EU migrants, then why should Britain receive non-EU migrants?

Why should the clear views of the British population be over-ridden by the dictate of non-Britons?

British attitudes on immigration

The British are not alone. Many nations feel immigration is a negative issue. If France could say "non", then they would. Britain has the advantage of the English Channel, so we actually can say "no".

European views on immigration

a reply to: paraphi

Agreed.
So long as the UK government supports the wishes of the majority of its citizens by defending the border then I'm happy about that.
I've said enough in this thread, so to prevent repeating myself too much I shall ignore the calls by non-UK nationals to change our border policy and only pop my head back if I see a Brit advocating that we accept all migrants who want to come here from other safe countries.

originally posted by: grainofsandand only pop my head back if I see a Brit advocating that we accept all migrants who want to come here from other safe countries.

And that excludes folks from London

originally posted by: ForteanOrg
And that excludes folks from London

? Not sure what you mean. Are Londoners advocating an open and uncontrolled immigration policy? No, of course they are not.

Going back to my point above.

Why should Britain allow non EU immigrants when the evidence is that the majority don't want this to happen?