The Deception of 1 Timoty 4:1 is Happening now, and you are Buying it.

originally posted by: Bone75

originally posted by: honested3

Yes. I believe the Bible has some truths in it but that the majority of it was sabotaged by man in order to control other people. So yes that would be mostly a fairy tale.

Interesting. Very, very interesting. I can't say I've ever met a self-proclaimed Christian who thought the Bible was mostly fairytales.

That's the second oxymoron you've presented thus far... the first being your OP.

Well now you have met one!

originally posted by: ketsuko
a reply to: honested3

I have some questions:

1. How long have you believed that gay marriage is something to be celebrated?

2. What Bible verses led you to change your mind?

3. How would you make a positive case from Scripture that sexual activity between two persons of the same sex is a blessing to be celebrated?

4. What verses would you use to show that a marriage between two persons of the same sex can adequately depict Christ and the church?

5. Do you think Jesus would have been okay with homosexual behavior between consenting adults in a committed relationship?

6. If so, why did he reassert the Genesis definition of marriage as being one man and one woman?

7. When Jesus spoke against porneia what sins do you think he was forbidding?

8. If some homosexual behavior is acceptable, how do you understand the sinful “exchange” Paul highlights in Romans 1?

9. Do you believe that passages like 1 Corinthians 6:9 and Revelation 21:8 teach that sexual immorality can keep you out of heaven?

10. What sexual sins do you think they were referring to?

11. As you think about the long history of the church and the near universal disapproval of same-sex sexual activity, what do you think you understand about the Bible that Augustine, Aquinas, Calvin, and Luther failed to grasp?

12. What arguments would you use to explain to Christians in Africa, Asia, and South America that their understanding of homosexuality is biblically incorrect and your new understanding of homosexuality is not culturally conditioned?

13. Do you think Hillary Clinton and Barack Obama were motivated by personal animus and bigotry when they, for almost all of their lives, defined marriage as a covenant relationship between one man and one woman?

14. Do you think children do best with a mother and a father?

15. If not, what research would you point to in support of that conclusion?

16. If yes, does the church or the state have any role to play in promoting or privileging the arrangement that puts children with a mom and a dad?

17. Does the end and purpose of marriage point to something more than an adult’s emotional and sexual fulfillment?

18. How would you define marriage?

19. Do you think close family members should be allowed to get married?

20. Should marriage be limited to only two people?

21. On what basis, if any, would you prevent consenting adults of any relation and of any number from getting married?

22. Should there be an age requirement in this country for obtaining a marriage license?

23. Does equality entail that anyone wanting to be married should be able to have any meaningful relationship defined as marriage?

24. If not, why not?

25. Should your brothers and sisters in Christ who disagree with homosexual practice be allowed to exercise their religious beliefs without fear of punishment, retribution, or coercion?

26. Will you speak up for your fellow Christians when their jobs, their accreditation, their reputation, and their freedoms are threatened because of this issue?

27. Will you speak out against shaming and bullying of all kinds, whether against gays and lesbians or against Evangelicals and Catholics?

28. Since the evangelical church has often failed to take unbiblical divorces and other sexual sins seriously, what steps will you take to ensure that gay marriages are healthy and accord with Scriptural principles?

29. Should gay couples in open relationships be subject to church discipline?

30. Is it a sin for LGBT persons to engage in sexual activity outside of marriage?

31. What will open and affirming churches do to speak prophetically against divorce, fornication, pornography, and adultery wherever they are found?

32. If “love wins,” how would you define love?

33. What verses would you use to establish that definition?

34. How should obedience to God’s commands shape our understanding of love?

35. Do you believe it is possible to love someone and disagree with important decisions they make?

36. If supporting gay marriage is a change for you, has anything else changed in your understanding of faith?

37. As an evangelical, how has your support for gay marriage helped you become more passionate about traditional evangelical distinctives like a focus on being born again, the substitutionary sacrifice of Christ on the cross, the total trustworthiness of the Bible, and the urgent need to evangelize the lost?

38. What open and affirming churches would you point to where people are being converted to orthodox Christianity, sinners are being warned of judgment and called to repentance, and missionaries are being sent out to plant churches among unreached peoples?

39. Do you hope to be more committed to the church, more committed to Christ, and more committed to the Scriptures in the years ahead?

40. When Paul at the end of Romans 1 rebukes “those who practice such things” and those who “give approval to those who practice them,” what sins do you think he has in mind?

Food for thought, I hope. At the very least, something to chew on before swallowing everything the world and Facebook put on our plate.

Although, we do agree that this is the time of the great falling away although not exactly in the way that you might mean.

1.) A couple years now.
2.) None, I stopped believing the Bible to be 100% God's word.
3) None, again it the mostly man-made Bible.
4) Again none, as the Bible mostly shows what some old dead guys believed.
5.) Absolutely
6.) He didn't, mankind did.
7.) Sexual immorality in reverence to other gods, ie. sex with children to appease some deity. Not consentual love between two adults.
8.) I don't believe homosexual behavior is sinful.
9.) No homosexual behavior can keep one out of heaven anymore than heterosexual behavior.
10.) Anything the patriarchy at the time in control of 'God's word' deemed immoral.
11.) That the Bible was doctor by man to control other's lives.
12.) Just as the white man has controlled your lives, they have done the same with your spirituality.
13.) No, but republican presidents/nominees were/are.
14.) No, I think children do best with a loving parent(s) not some parent(s) who think they know best because fairy tales told them.
15.) I haven't researched this but I only know it from my personal experience being raised fundamental Christian and seeing other people's lives.

Will work on some more tomorrow

a reply to: honested3

a reply to: Seede Thanks for the reply, I am readily aware of the points you bring up and the validity of the Bible, I too have had a lifetime of scriptural learnings. Even after all of that I still don't believe it is 100% God's word, and I still refuse to believe that God sends people to hell.

What part of the 100% do you not believe is of God and why do you not accept hell as taught in the KJV bible? With a bible background you most certainly must have reason.

a reply to: honested3

So you wholeheartedly believe Jesus Christ was the Son of God and that he died for your sins and was resurrected?

originally posted by: Bone75
a reply to: honested3

So you wholeheartedly believe Jesus Christ was the Son of God and that he died for your sins and was resurrected?

Yes. Absolutely. And I believe that He did this for everyone regardless of whether they choose to follow Him or not. People are forced to go to Heaven basically.

originally posted by: Seede
a reply to: honested3

a reply to: Seede Thanks for the reply, I am readily aware of the points you bring up and the validity of the Bible, I too have had a lifetime of scriptural learnings. Even after all of that I still don't believe it is 100% God's word, and I still refuse to believe that God sends people to hell.

What part of the 100% do you not believe is of God and why do you not accept hell as taught in the KJV bible? With a bible background you most certainly must have reason.

Good question, I can't say there is one specific verse here or there that made me realize there is no hell, but rather pondering the nature of God and His love. It just seems contradictory that a loving God would even have a hell in the first place as it means that He forsees us going to hell, why even make us in the first place then?

I just simply choose to ignore things in the Bible like homosexuality is a sin, or God condoning genocide and other things as not actually from God.

a reply to: honested3

Good question, I can't say there is one specific verse here or there that made me realize there is no hell, but rather pondering the nature of God and His love. It just seems contradictory that a loving God would even have a hell in the first place as it means that He forsees us going to hell, why even make us in the first place then?

But God did not make you. People procreated and made you. God knew it by foreknowledge but allowed it because He gave people the right to freedom. God only made one perfect pattern and people screwed it all up by themselves in procreation and disobedience. Why blame God for what people have done?

Hell is simply a spiritual jail. It was designed to keep the bad from the good. You wouldn't put rotten fruit in the same container as good fruit. Sure God foresees us going to hell but He gave us the right to choose hell. He didn't force us to be rotten. We choose to be rotten. But He gave your parents that same right to have a child. He did not force your parents to procreate but by their own choice they procreated you. God did not create you.

I just simply choose to ignore things in the Bible like homosexuality is a sin, or God condoning genocide and other things as not actually from God.

But God does not condone genocide nor does He create homosexuality or any other abomination. People do all of that and some people say that God told them to do it. There are many deities and within everyone of them (that I am aware of) there are some who put the blame on their deity when in fact it is people who sin against their deity. Why is that? It's because people want an excuse and what better than to blame an unseen deity who will not challenge their right to do as they want. It's real simple, we choose and reap what we sow.

a reply to: Seede

I understand your school of thought (in fact I believed it for most of my life) but still it negates the fact that God would have known from the beginning. Even if it was free will and sin that caused hell bound people and homosexuals to be born as you say, God still would have know about it. God is either omniscient or not. He is either perfect love or not. Your logic says he is perfect love but is not omniscient, therefore he isn't really God is he?

a reply to: honested3

I understand your school of thought (in fact I believed it for most of my life) but still it negates the fact that God would have known from the beginning. Even if it was free will and sin that caused hell bound people and homosexuals to be born as you say, God still would have know about it. God is either omniscient or not. He is either perfect love or not. Your logic says he is perfect love but is not omniscient, therefore he isn't really God is he?

Yes, you are correct in that God is omniscient or at least that is my understanding of the God of Abram. But God does not micro manage His creation. When God created the man and formed the woman from the man, their DNA was perfect for the closed environment that was created. But when the offspring of the man and woman became perverted by their disobedience to the rules of life and the closed environment became an open environment then it escalated into what we now have. Meanwhile from the start of creation God gave people the authority and freewill to govern this face of this earth. That includes the right to procreate other people.

God knew from before the creation that this would happen but God did not make it happen. People made it happen by their own authority that God gave them. Then why would God even make a man and woman in the first place if He knew it would happen? I think that is your real question and quite frankly I have asked that same question in my life. In fact after WWII that was the very question that many thousands of people asked concerning the holocaust.

Lets go on that premise. Let me assume that God knows exactly how many people will be procreated. Lets say that hypothetical number is TEN. I believe that His desire is to be loved because He is love. He knows that out of that TEN that there will be Eight that will not love Him but then how does he get that TWO that truly love Him through self will? He could simply create those TWO but then would it be true love? No it would not be true love because true love has no command. True love is above commandments or rules. True love has to be a portion of choice. That is what the Creator wants and it only comes from ones self. IT does not come from rules and regulations but it comes within the essence of the person. So how does God embrace that TWO of which He desires? He allows the EIGHT to experience the very same life of trial and death as the TWO. So all TEN are allowed to mingle in life so as to prove the worth of the TWO.

You must understand that a rule is a rule with God. One rule is that every person will be judged by thought and deed at death which is not forgiven. That rule applies to all people. Now if the TWO stand in judgment the same as the other EIGHT and are found righteous then justice was indeed served by God. Regardless of omniscient, all were given equal opportunity to accept or reject love. God had to go through anguish at seeing destruction of His creation but there is no other recourse for Him to save His Two. Now you might say that God is one fine God to sacrifice EIGHT for TWO but then think about it. Would it be better to save Eight unrighteous for TWO righteous? What would He have then? Well, He would then have EIGHT who hated Him and destroyed Two that loved Him.

a reply to: Seede

Thank you for the deep thoughts and its nice to see someone actually talking about this.

I get the micro manage concept and it is an easy one to go by but makes God seem very impersonal, and still it contradicts his omniscient nature. It could be argued that God chose to not know, this brings up the question of "can God create a rock so big he cannot lift it, but also lift it?" The answer is yes and no, as God is not limited by human reasoning. However we are left still with God choosing to neglect and ignore His own creation if your stipulation was true, and we cant answer that in the same way without saying He is not pure love.

The second part of your reply worries me as it shows that God chose to send 2/10 of those people to hell with full knowledge, even if it was 'for the better good'. This would insinuate that God is selfish and that He chooses to create people to weed out and just burn the rest, if He knew 2/10 would have to go to hell, then why even make those 2? It is an abuse of God's power and omniscient nature, unless of course we say He is pure love and sends no one to hell.

Again thank you for replying, I enjoy bouncing ideas back and forth. I still feel strong in my belief because one can only excuse God as depicted in the Bible only if He has perfect love and to accept the parts of Him that are not love such as hell, murder, and so on, as just made made.

originally posted by: honested3

originally posted by: infolurker

originally posted by: coldkidc
If you're getting told to hate gay people and "sinners" then you are going to the wrong Christian churches.

Jesus specifically told us to love one another as he loves us.

That doesn't mean I have to agree with their lifestyle choice though - it's two separate issues.

And that you see is the problem.

If you don't agree and actually freaking support their lifestyle, then you are the enemy.

Why do I have to support your lifestyle? You chose to be straight and you chose to be non-trans so why do I have to exhaust myself putting up with that lifestyle when clearly the Lord has taught us to love one another?

emphasis is mine Uhm... Wut? I didn't Choose to be straight anymore than you chose not to be... That smells awfully like hypocrite to me...(Not you personally being a hypocrite, just that that 'rebuttal' as i shudder to call it sounds a lot like those 'oppressive' Christian arguments...)

originally posted by: 5leepingWarrior

originally posted by: honested3

originally posted by: infolurker

originally posted by: coldkidc
If you're getting told to hate gay people and "sinners" then you are going to the wrong Christian churches.

Jesus specifically told us to love one another as he loves us.

That doesn't mean I have to agree with their lifestyle choice though - it's two separate issues.

And that you see is the problem.

If you don't agree and actually freaking support their lifestyle, then you are the enemy.

Why do I have to support your lifestyle? You chose to be straight and you chose to be non-trans so why do I have to exhaust myself putting up with that lifestyle when clearly the Lord has taught us to love one another?

emphasis is mine Uhm... Wut? I didn't Choose to be straight anymore than you chose not to be... That smells awfully like hypocrite to me...(Not you personally being a hypocrite, just that that 'rebuttal' as i shudder to call it sounds a lot like those 'oppressive' Christian arguments...)

Well that's the point, it sounds crazy to say you chose to be anything, I was sarcastically bringing to light the same questions queer people are asked.

a reply to: honested3

Okay, good. Yeah, I kind of though you might be, but it can be difficult to smdetect through this medium.

originally posted by: Seede
..............................
Lets go on that premise. Let me assume that God knows exactly how many people will be procreated. Lets say that hypothetical number is TEN. I believe that His desire is to be loved because He is love. He knows that out of that TEN that there will be Eight that will not love Him but then how does he get that TWO that truly love Him through self will? He could simply create those TWO but then would it be true love? No it would not be true love because true love has no command. True love is above commandments or rules. True love has to be a portion of choice. That is what the Creator wants and it only comes from ones self. IT does not come from rules and regulations but it comes within the essence of the person. So how does God embrace that TWO of which He desires? He allows the EIGHT to experience the very same life of trial and death as the TWO. So all TEN are allowed to mingle in life so as to prove the worth of the TWO.

You must understand that a rule is a rule with God. One rule is that every person will be judged by thought and deed at death which is not forgiven. That rule applies to all people. Now if the TWO stand in judgment the same as the other EIGHT and are found righteous then justice was indeed served by God. Regardless of omniscient, all were given equal opportunity to accept or reject love. God had to go through anguish at seeing destruction of His creation but there is no other recourse for Him to save His Two. Now you might say that God is one fine God to sacrifice EIGHT for TWO but then think about it. Would it be better to save Eight unrighteous for TWO righteous? What would He have then? Well, He would then have EIGHT who hated Him and destroyed Two that loved Him.

This is the basis of an elitist society like Nazism.The “‘unworthy” must be weeded out from the good to allow the good to grow and get what they deserve.That is the very antithesis of the state of being Love(being IN the kingdom of the creator God) and the epitome of evil.

You assume many things about the nature of humans and God.You presume humans chose whether to “believe” in a God with a will free of cause which could not be further from the truth.The will is a mechanism of the mind that makes choices it is not the “nature” nor the name of a person.The choices a person makes all have root causes that the person has no control over because of the intricate web and multiple causes and effects that led up to them.

The choices a person makes form the persons character (not their nature which is religious) The amalgamation of all of a person experiences form their belief in faith of their Belief System religion.It is all one machine working in tandem with the events of human history (and the universe ) to be the persons “name”(nature and character).

You are assuming a persons choices is the qualification of whether a person is to “enter”in the state of mind of the Kingdom of their heavens and that only people that made the right “religious choice”(established by your religions criteria) enter.That is myopic elitism at it’s perverted height which is the same type of thinking of the Jewish Pharisees.Yahoshua clearly stated what that is:

"Woe to you, scribes and Pharisees, hypocrites! for you shut up the kingdom of heaven against men: for you neither go in yourselves, neither allow them that are entering to go in".

Your gospel bad news foundation stone is how “you” are better and more qualified than others (the clubbers) to enter Gods kingdoms however Yahoshua continually deny’s your ignorance through the testimony(what is written) of his witness against your elitism and more importantly common reason.

It is “you” the elitist that are a stumbling block for those entering in by representing “your” God as the true God when in truth your God is only You and is completely powerless and self deceived.Yahoshua clearly stated this and warned the disciples:

“Do not be deceived. For many will come in my name and say they are christ and deceive many”.