The Deception of 1 Timoty 4:1 is Happening now, and you are Buying it.

a reply to: honested3

God creates you with a choice.

What you choose is your decision. If you choose to turn against Him, then what should He do? If He makes you turn back, then you have no free will. If He lets you go your own way and turn from Him and lets you take the consequences of that choice, then you further condemn Him.

Either way, He will not win in your eyes.

originally posted by: 3NL1GHT3N3D1
a reply to: Klassified

Deuteronomy is part of the Old Covenant, Jesus was said to have done away with the Old Covenant. It seems as though Christians will cherry pick what they do or do not like within the bible to support their views. Very convenient. (This is not directed towards you)

Jesus taught acceptance of everyone, not just who you want to accept. If you don't accept someones sexuality then you do not accept who they are, Jesus accepted everyone and taught us to do so. If you are against gay rights then you are against what Jesus taught in my opinion.

And just in case it's brought up, pedophilia is a form of sexuality but it doesn't involve a mutual agreement between two adults. One person is being taken advantage of and hurt in the process, a child. Jesus would not agree with that because "do unto others".

Hmmm, let's examine your words carefully, you said "who" rather than "what." Please explain to me the difference between those two words, and then let's go back revisit this whole issue of sin.

a reply to: Cuervo

So... If you plant more than one crop in your garden bed, plow with the wrong animals, wear mixed fibers, or forget to attach your tassels... you are going to the same hell reserved for transfolk. It sounds like the only people not going to hell are inefficient farmers and walking fashion tragedies.

I don't think you understand the purpose of the 613 mitzvot (commands). All are given for the good of the people.

It is not that you plant more than one type of seed in your field but that you keep your vineyard pure. It is saying to not contaminate the vineyard or among your grapes. Reason? You contaminate the soil and reap bad grapes. Not that you go to hell for doing so but only to teach you common sense.

Don't yoke an ox with a donkey. Why? Because one will always be unruly and fight the other. If you go to the shelter to buy an animal buy them in pairs so that they work in pairs and not waste your money trying to save the price of another oxen. Once again common sense and not that you go to hell for being stupid.

Don't wear woolen and linen woven together. Also not a hell thing but only to remember that Cain (cotton) slew Able (wool) One can wear wool and cotton over each other as a whole garments but not to be interwoven into one garment.

Now as far as the tassels are concerned. The entire command is quite lengthy and does vary from one to another but the purpose is that it is done strictly as a reminder of God. Some insist that the wool is the only fabric used while some insist that both linen and woolen garments can be tasseled. Only four cornered garments are to be tasseled and must be kept as linen to linen and woolen to woolen. Some insist the color must be sky blue while others insist colors of choice. But all in all it remains that it is only a reminder of the sacred God of Abram and not a hell thing at all.

After reading your post I found nothing of any form of spiritual or physical punishment whatsoever in the entire post. Mostly common sense for the people's own benefit in that culture and era. Your rude slurs are not debatable but only bad behavior.

a reply to 3NLIGHT3N3DI

Jesus accepted everyone and taught us to do so. If you are against gay rights then you are against what Jesus taught in my opinion.

You are as entitled to that opinion even though it is wrong as wrong can possibly be. Jesus did not accept everyone and to this day He does not accept everyone. That is according to the KJV and most other bibles. It is true you can find any bible to suit your needs such as the Queen James or other filthy literature but in academia it does not exist. Gay rights are just that. All people have the right to choose and practice that which is their choice and they also have the responsibility of that choice as well as others also have the same right to reject that choice. The finality is in death when all are judged by Jesus and not people. What lawyers decide is not what Jesus teaches.

originally posted by: Seede
………….
Now it may be true that some doctrines of groups of people have and still do control their flocks with other means but did you realize that most all control is from ignorance and laziness of the people who will not study or read with understanding? ……..

Yet Yahoshua said :

"You search [study]the Scriptures because you think that in them you have eternal life yet it is these that testify about me and you are unwilling to come to me[Yahoshua] so that you may have life.”

Yahoshua then said :

“I do not receive glory from men but I know YOU, that you DO NOT have the love of God in yourselves.I have come in My Father’s name, and you do not receive me; if another comes in his own name, you will receive him”.

Do not think that I will accuse you before the Father; the one who accuses you is Moses, in whom YOU have set your hope. “For if you believed Moses, you would believe Me, for he wrote about Me”.

originally posted by: Seede
Are you aware that the God of Abram is not just love? Do you understand that there are many faces of the English word love? Love means one thing in referencing mom or dad but quite another thing in referring to God. God loves all of His creation with permissive will but not with His perfect will.

Yet the scriptures state "God is Love" with zero qualification and Yahoshua clearly stated the creator Gods will WILL be done .

originally posted by: Seede
If the majority 5,000 manuscripts tell us that there is a hell then according to those manuscripts there is a hell. Regardless of whether you want to believe it or not, according to those manuscripts there is a hell for those who will not accept the teachings of those manuscripts. According to those booklets that teach there is a hell then God cannot be all love. Why else would He create a hell?

The fact is none of the scriptures say there is a place of eternal(eternal means age..your “made up”definition means infinite) punishment of hell(EPH).None of the disciples nor Paul say anything about the EPH nor does Yahoshua.They say just the opposite that Yahoshua IS the savor of All of creation and I have posted these scriptures numerous times at ATS yet you do not believe them.

Yahoshua the disciples and Paul preach (state by proclamation) the Good news of Yahoshua..which “name” means Yahweh(the creator God the father) IS deliverance/salvation which is for ALL of creation (including ALL of mankind) from Hades… which means the grave(the realm of death) and the realm of imperception.Yahoshuas statement in John 5:43 was he “came” in his fathers “name” as Yahoshua..the savor of ALL of creation not just the “self chosen” as you believe.

originally posted by: Seede
The problem now is that can we pick out what we want form those manuscripts and disregard the offending portions? We can and many of do just that with the excuse that the offending portions are wrong.

This is the only true statement(albeit it was rhetorical) you’ve made in this thread .However it is YOU that have cherry picked the scriptures and twisted them to mean what you want and disregard the offending portions that completely contradict your religious beliefs.As Yahoshua said you cannot perceive the truth because the love of the creator God is not in you.You condemn others to hell unrighteously and pin it on your God and believe your God does not love completely and your God created hell!

originally posted by: Seede
An example is that we can read where Jesus loves sinners. He does indeed love sinners but only when they are alive.

The above statements is a true sign of someone who has crossed the line of any true hope in this age and has blasphemed(cursed…rejected) the holy spirit of life and will not be forgiven(which means freed from bondage ) in this age(the material realm life) or the next (the realm of death….. Hades).

originally posted by: Seede
a reply to: Cuervo

So... If you plant more than one crop in your garden bed, plow with the wrong animals, wear mixed fibers, or forget to attach your tassels... you are going to the same hell reserved for transfolk. It sounds like the only people not going to hell are inefficient farmers and walking fashion tragedies.

I don't think you understand the purpose of the 613 mitzvot (commands). All are given for the good of the people.

It is not that you plant more than one type of seed in your field but that you keep your vineyard pure. It is saying to not contaminate the vineyard or among your grapes. Reason? You contaminate the soil and reap bad grapes. Not that you go to hell for doing so but only to teach you common sense.

Don't yoke an ox with a donkey. Why? Because one will always be unruly and fight the other. If you go to the shelter to buy an animal buy them in pairs so that they work in pairs and not waste your money trying to save the price of another oxen. Once again common sense and not that you go to hell for being stupid.

Don't wear woolen and linen woven together. Also not a hell thing but only to remember that Cain (cotton) slew Able (wool) One can wear wool and cotton over each other as a whole garments but not to be interwoven into one garment.

Now as far as the tassels are concerned. The entire command is quite lengthy and does vary from one to another but the purpose is that it is done strictly as a reminder of God. Some insist that the wool is the only fabric used while some insist that both linen and woolen garments can be tasseled. Only four cornered garments are to be tasseled and must be kept as linen to linen and woolen to woolen. Some insist the color must be sky blue while others insist colors of choice. But all in all it remains that it is only a reminder of the sacred God of Abram and not a hell thing at all.

After reading your post I found nothing of any form of spiritual or physical punishment whatsoever in the entire post. Mostly common sense for the people's own benefit in that culture and era. Your rude slurs are not debatable but only bad behavior.

Of course there's nothing in there about going to hell for it. But that doesn't keep Christians from telling me that. That's my point. My other point is that the one verse they always bring up to condemn transgender people is surrounded by several other rather benign "sins" or Mitzvot (thanks for teaching me that, by the way). This tells me they are on par with each other and that I am no more sinful than a person with no parapet on their house or tassels on their shoulders.

Also, what rude slurs did I use? I was being serious. If you happen to wear tassels and take biblical farming seriously, I apologize for taking a jab at you.

a reply to: Rex282

Yet Yahoshua said : "You search [study]the Scriptures because you think that in them you have eternal life yet it is these that testify about me and you are unwilling to come to me[Yahoshua] so that you may have life.”

KJV John 5:39 Search the scriptures; for in them ye think ye have eternal life: and they are they which testify of me.

You have misled people to a false teaching. This entire thought has been taken out of context. Please read from verses 18-47 and get the entire story. Jesus was talking to the Jews who wanted to kill Him for doing good. But you must also realize that Jesus was not talking about searching the NT scriptures as we today have the bible because these NT scriptures did not exist then. Only the OT Tanach existed then and the New Covenant of Christ Jesus had not as yet been given. So Jesus was saying to the OT Jews that the kingdom of heaven was not in their scriptures and it was not.

“I do not receive glory from men but I know YOU, that you DO NOT have the love of God in yourselves.I have come in My Father’s name, and you do not receive me; if another comes in his own name, you will receive him”. Do not think that I will accuse you before the Father; the one who accuses you is Moses, in whom YOU have set your hope. “For if you believed Moses, you would believe Me, for he wrote about Me”.

I believe this also applies to the Jews that sought to destroy Jesus. You did not give the chapters and verses.

Yet the scriptures state "God is Love" with zero qualification and Yahoshua clearly stated the creator Gods will WILL be done .

You are gravely mistaken again.; There are conditions for salvation --

John 3:16-21
(16) For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have everlasting life.
(17)For God sent not his Son into the world to condemn the world; but that the world through him might be saved.
(18)He that believeth on him is not condemned: but he that believeth not is condemned already, because he hath not believed in the name of the only begotten Son of God.
(19)And this is the condemnation, that light is come into the world, and men loved darkness rather than light, because their deeds were evil.
(20)For every one that doeth evil hateth the light, neither cometh to the light, lest his deeds should be reproved.
(21)But he that doeth truth cometh to the light, that his deeds may be made manifest, that they are wrought in God.

The fact is none of the scriptures say there is a place of eternal(eternal means age..your “made up”definition means infinite) punishment of hell(EPH).None of the disciples nor Paul say anything about the EPH nor does Yahoshua.They say just the opposite that Yahoshua IS the savor of All of creation and I have posted these scriptures numerous times at ATS yet you do not believe them. Yahoshua the disciples and Paul preach (state by proclamation) the Good news of Yahoshua..which “name” means Yahweh(the creator God the father) IS deliverance/salvation which is for ALL of creation (including ALL of mankind) from Hades… which means the grave(the realm of death) and the realm of imperception.Yahoshuas statement in John 5:43 was he “came” in his fathers “name” as Yahoshua..the savor of ALL of creation not just the “self chosen” as you believe.

Yes you are quite right. We have had a lengthy past discussion of hell so perhaps another thread would be best. As a remark that I think you have overlooked in that hell is not eternal. You can see this in Revelation where it most certainly will be destroyed as one of the last enemies of mankind.

This is the only true statement(albeit it was rhetorical) you’ve made in this thread .However it is YOU that have cherry picked the scriptures and twisted them to mean what you want and disregard the offending portions that completely contradict your religious beliefs.As Yahoshua said you cannot perceive the truth because the love of the creator God is not in you.You condemn others to hell unrighteously and pin it on your God and believe your God does not love completely and your God created hell!

At times harsh statements can sow a seed of salvation. It can be to teach or it can be to warn. I may seem to be in contention but at times the eyes cannot see and the ears cannot hear the truth.

a reply to: Cuervo

Of course there's nothing in there about going to hell for it. But that doesn't keep Christians from telling me that. That's my point. My other point is that the one verse they always bring up to condemn transgender people is surrounded by several other rather benign "sins" or Mitzvot (thanks for teaching me that, by the way). This tells me they are on par with each other and that I am no more sinful than a person with no parapet on their house or tassels on their shoulders.

Cuervo - I apologize for being impatient. You may not believe what I am about to say. Your sins are not greater than my sins and your sins are no greater than any man or woman's sins. Sin is sin and all sin is against God. While we are in the act of sin we are not of God. Makes no difference what that sin is. The only sin that is not forgiven is the sin of blasphemy.

Not one person living today is free of sin and not one sin is accountable after confessed to Christ Jesus. You may have a star in heaven while I am in hell. Neither one of us will know till we are judged by Christ Jesus. One thing is very clear in the doctrine of Christ Jesus and that is our sins must be confessed and forgiven and that is not my or any other persons right to judge.
God Bless you--

originally posted by: Seede
a reply to: Cuervo

Of course there's nothing in there about going to hell for it. But that doesn't keep Christians from telling me that. That's my point. My other point is that the one verse they always bring up to condemn transgender people is surrounded by several other rather benign "sins" or Mitzvot (thanks for teaching me that, by the way). This tells me they are on par with each other and that I am no more sinful than a person with no parapet on their house or tassels on their shoulders.

Cuervo - I apologize for being impatient. You may not believe what I am about to say. Your sins are not greater than my sins and your sins are no greater than any man or woman's sins. Sin is sin and all sin is against God. While we are in the act of sin we are not of God. Makes no difference what that sin is. The only sin that is not forgiven is the sin of blasphemy.

Not one person living today is free of sin and not one sin is accountable after confessed to Christ Jesus. You may have a star in heaven while I am in hell. Neither one of us will know till we are judged by Christ Jesus. One thing is very clear in the doctrine of Christ Jesus and that is our sins must be confessed and forgiven and that is not my or any other persons right to judge.
God Bless you--

Interesting view, thank you. If a person who is continually in the act of sin (a divorced and remarried woman, for example), does that person have to continually confess their sin or is it more like a "I'm gonna keep doing this and you're going to keep forgiving me so can we just call it good?" type of situation? I ask because there are plenty of Christians I know who's very existence is perpetually sinful by biblical standards yet they know in their hearts that they live in Christ.

I know I'm making it sound casual but I'm sure you can add your own gravity to the sentiment I'm going for. I've asked a similar question on another thread a while back and it either went unanswered or it was one of those non-answers (I don't remember).

a reply to: CuervoIll refer you to Yeshuas interaction with the Samaritan woman at the well. You have had five husbands and you are not even married to the one you are now with. Go and sin no more. 5 and she was forgiven. without judgement or brow beating. He isnt so kind and accepting to everyone. Keep in mind how He treated the money changers in His Fathers temple. He made a whip and drove them out.

originally posted by: Seede
You have misled people to a false teaching. This entire thought has been taken out of context. Please read from verses 18-47 and get the entire story. Jesus was talking to the Jews who wanted to kill Him for doing good. But you must also realize that Jesus was not talking about searching the NT scriptures as we today have the bible because these NT scriptures did not exist then. Only the OT Tanach existed then and the New Covenant of Christ Jesus had not as yet been given. So Jesus was saying to the OT Jews that the kingdom of heaven was not in their scriptures and it was not.

The context is pertaining to the same kind of religious legalism the Jewish pharisees had and you have…the insistence that a person must study the scriptures to enter the kingdom of heaven and “believe” the truth of the creator God and to be saved which is absolutely false.You have not a clue what the kingdom of the heavens even is!It is not a fantasy “celestial” kingdom somewhere out there that you have concocted in your false doctrines by perverting the scriptures.

The context was Yahoshua performing miracles and was not conducting “Tanakh” studies and following the Law.The Jews wanted to kill him because he wasn’t following or teaching the Law!!That is the context yet you don’t understand(hear ) it because you are deaf just like the Jewish pharisees and have no life in you.

Your double talk that Yahoshau was speaking of the old testament is nothing more than a simplistic blind diversion.The scriptures are what is written.The scriptures you are getting your bigotted interpretation is from what you call the scriptures(The new testament).

originally posted by: Rex282
“I do not receive glory from men but I know YOU, that you DO NOT have the love of God in yourselves.I have come in My Father’s name, and you do not receive me; if another comes in his own name, you will receive him”. Do not think that I will accuse you before the Father; the one who accuses you is Moses, in whom YOU have set your hope. “For if you believed Moses, you would believe Me, for he wrote about Me”.

originally posted by: Seede
I believe this also applies to the Jews that sought to destroy Jesus. You did not give the chapters and verses.

Yes you are correct… you believe and that is all it is ..belief… false belief.The Jewish pharisees were trying to murder Yahoshua because he did not follow or “teach” the Tanakh .The fact is Yahoshua was speaking to you just as he spoke to the Jewish Pharisee.It is you that are crucifying Yahoshua and do not believe or know Yahoshua(deliverance). Your attention to detail(deafness) is proof that you don’t even know that these verse are following the other verses I quoted in the same chapter of John 5!

originally posted by: Seede
You are gravely mistaken again.; There are conditions for salvation --
John 3:16-21……..
For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have everlasting life.For God sent NOT his Son into the world to CONDEMN the world; but that the WORLD through him might be SAVED. He that believeth on him is not condemned: but he that believeth not is condemned already, because he hath not believed in the NAME of the only begotten Son of God. And this is the condemnation, that light is come into the world, and men loved darkness rather than light, because their deeds were evil. For every one that doeth evil hateth the light, neither cometh to the light, lest his deeds should be reproved. But he that doeth truth cometh to the light, that his deeds may be made manifest, that they are wrought in God.

It is you that are very gravely mistaken.These verse are describing you to the “T”.You are the one that does not believe in no less “know” the name (nature and character) of Yahoshua that IS the deliverer/savor of ALL of mankind.It is YOU that have set the conditions of salvation to your religion and crammed them down your Jesus mouth.

The Greek word “sozo” is translated as the phrase “might be saved”.It does not mean “possibly” it means “to save” keep safe and sound…WILL be saved. The word condemn is translated from the Greek word krino which means to separate. Yashoshua accurately states that those that do not believe in Yahoshua are “separated" already and cannot see( perceive) the light(truth) because they are in darkness.He emphasized the Jewish leaders like the pharisee were in the most darkness(separation from the truth) and this is what he is saying to you because you do not believe in Yahoshua(the creator God is deliverance for ALL of mankind).Yahoshua is very accurately describing your religious beliefs(darkness…imperception) because you are in complete darkness with no light and do not believe in the creator God and Yahoshua at all.

cont'd

originally posted by: Rex282
The fact is none of the scriptures say there is a place of eternal(eternal means age..your “made up”definition means infinite) punishment of hell(EPH).None of the disciples nor Paul say anything about the EPH nor does Yahoshua.They say just the opposite that Yahoshua IS the savor of All of creation and I have posted these scriptures numerous times at ATS yet you do not believe them. Yahoshua the disciples and Paul preach (state by proclamation) the Good news of Yahoshua..which “name” means Yahweh(the creator God the father) IS deliverance/salvation which is for ALL of creation (including ALL of mankind) from Hades… which means the grave(the realm of death) and the realm of imperception.Yahoshuas statement in John 5:43 was he “came” in his fathers “name” as Yahoshua..the savor of ALL of creation not just the “self chosen” as you believe.

originally posted by: Seede
Yes you are quite right. We have had a lengthy past discussion of hell so perhaps another thread would be best. As a remark that I think you have overlooked in that hell is not eternal. You can see this in Revelation where it most certainly will be destroyed as one of the last enemies of mankind.

You have a chronic case of myopia and duplicity.I clearly stated “eternity” does not mean infinite time yet you have stated many times it is in other posts for years at ATS yet now you are changing your tune.

I have zero desire to discuss hell with you or anyone.It is the most disgusting and vile construct ever created in the religious mind of man.I only comment on it here at ATS to deny it’s perverted ignorance .

originally posted by: Seede
At times harsh statements can sow a seed of salvation. It can be to teach or it can be to warn. I may seem to be in contention but at times the eyes cannot see and the ears cannot hear the truth.

This is a prime example of your complete blindness.You have not preached(sown) one word of the Good news of salvation (Yahoshua) it has all been your bad news(for everyone but you and the proposed “chosen” few that believe what you do) of your unjust Jesus and God.

You are not sowing anything but your perverted false religion and condemning(the modern definition) multiple billions of people to your construct of Hell .You are very incorrect…. you do not seem contentious ..you are contentious and your eyes cannot see nor your ears hear the truth of the Good news or the creator God or Yahoshua because you have already been krino.(separated) from it.

Fortunately for you ….you will be forgiven(freed from bondage) of death and your false religion(imperception..blindness…darkness) regardless of your blasphemy.However it will not be in this world/age (physical life realm) nor the next realm/age of death.

You will only be freed from your religion in the lake of fire where EVERYTHING will be destroyed and nothing will be left except you will be delivered to Life by that fire.Paul spoke of this yet I am positive you believe he is talking of others.

a reply to: Cuervo

Interesting view, thank you. If a person who is continually in the act of sin (a divorced and remarried woman, for example), does that person have to continually confess their sin or is it more like a "I'm gonna keep doing this and you're going to keep forgiving me so can we just call it good?" type of situation? I ask because there are plenty of Christians I know who's very existence is perpetually sinful by biblical standards yet they know in their hearts that they live in Christ.

I look at king David as one example. David was a murderer as well as an adulterer. He was so bloody that God would not let him build his temple. Yet God so loved him that He accepted him as a man after His own heart. David lost his son because of his lust and yet God gave him a throne forever. Go Figure. How can this be? No one called him St. David and most today try to erase him from history.

Once Jesus forgives sin it is actually forgotten by God. Forgiven sin is erased from God's mind but if a person will ask forgiveness with the intent that he or she will continue that sin then that is not genuine intent on the part of the sinner. The Apostle Paul had the same problem. He could not overcome his delight in sin and he confessed this to the world. In fact Paul had a malady which he asked Jesus to heal and Jesus said no. The scriptures give the reason as to say, if Jesus would heal that malady of Paul's then Paul would go right back to the old Saul attitude. So God allowed Satan to afflict Paul to keep Paul in line with God's will.

Adultery is the act of both mind and body of one who is married. Jesus taught that even the lustful thought is as sinful as the deed. Now as I understand it, this only applies if the vows of marriage were spoken to the same God as what is the present God. Example would be that if you swore a vow to Moloch and later became a Christian then that vow to Moloch would not be binding to the God of Abram. This would apply to any sort of same circumstance. There are other examples of voided marriages such as one that deceives another and lies to God as well as the spouse. We cannot know the minds of people so it should be a matter between spouses and God. Yes adultery is forgiven and no it is not an ongoing sin forever.

Moses also said that even though divorce is sinful it is necessary because of our sinful nature. In other words it is the permissive will of God but not the perfect will of God. By the same token so is the Christ Jesus. Jesus is necessary only because of the permissive will of God. If God's perfect will was instilled in us then there would have been no need for Jesus to be our mediator between God and ourselves. None of us will ever achieve the perfect will of God. It is impossible even though different organizations will profess saints. That is nothing but man's ideas. A sin forgiven is erased and has never existed in the mind of God.

a reply to: Rex282

This is a prime example of your complete blindness.You have not preached(sown) one word of the Good news of salvation (Yahoshua) it has all been your bad news(for everyone but you and the proposed “chosen” few that believe what you do) of your unjust Jesus and God.

You may be right but hope you are wrong. The proposed chosen are the ones who have confessed sin to Jesus and I do not know who the chosen are. I do believe they are the ones who have been forgiven and have died in that state of forgiveness. We both will find out one day.

Now to clear up the misunderstanding of John's intent of his letter. When John wrote his letter, of which we discussed, the NT was not in existence nor was it his intent to have you read it some two thousand years later. Think about it. John is arguing with people that want to kill him. As they are arguing there is no such thing as letters compiled into a book for them to examine so why would John tell them to examine a book which doesn't even exist? John wrote this happening some three to four decade later after the argument and then some time later it was to become our NT. How can you explain the fact the John would tell people to search through letters that were not even written?

Now Rex if that upsets you then I cannot retract something that is not even reasonable simply because you do not understand. This is a fact. You cannot read something that has not been written. I really do not understand why you are so angry over your own error.

originally posted by: Rex282
This is a prime example of your complete blindness.You have not preached(sown) one word of the Good news of salvation (Yahoshua) it has all been your bad news(for everyone but you and the proposed “chosen” few that believe what you do) of your unjust Jesus and God.

originally posted by: Seede
You may be right but hope you are wrong. The proposed chosen are the ones who have confessed sin to Jesus and I do not know who the chosen are. I do believe they are the ones who have been forgiven and have died in that state of forgiveness. We both will find out one day.

It is about whether I am right it is about what you believe and you are preaching.Your doctrine of who has been chosen is false . It is very easy to know who the few are chosen Yahoshua spoke of are.They are the disciples.Yahoshua told them very clearly many times(especially in John 14-17) the main preaching(proclamation of statement) being in the explanation of the parable of the seed sown in the soils.He told the disciples they were given (chosen) to “know” the kingdom of their heavens.

This is a very alien construct to your religious carnal mind because you believe in a “celestial” kingdom of heaven somewhere out there you and your elite chosen ones go to after death” etc etc.Yet Yahoshua nor the disciples speak nothing of that.Yahoshua told the disciples they would enter through the narrow gate into the kingdom of their heavens.Kingdom means rulership , the heavens is a metaphor for the mind because there is no accurate definition of what the mind really is.

However the function of the mind of man nature can be known because it is religious(sin..fallen short of the mark of maturity) which is dualistic(The fruit of the tree of the knowledge of good and evil) and has set themselves up as God sitting on the throne of their religious kingdom as the abomination that makes desolate.That kingdom is ruled in cacophony by a fool(the man of perdition) that has zero perception of reality(truth) because it is only believed in faith by their Belief System religion.They cannot “confess” their sin because it is their nature to be ignorant of truth(imperception..Hades).This personal religion may have a “herd” religion(like Christianity or Islam etc) as it’s foundation however it is still the “persons” religion.

The creator God the father chose the disciples as the few who, while still living life in the material realm, to “know”(be forgiven..which means freed from bondage)) the kingdom of their heavens” and enter into the kingdom of the creator God.The disciples are the only chosen few to enter while living in the material realm however ALL of mankind are the chosen people of the creator God because the creator God will deliver ALL of mankind by forgiving(freed from bondage) them of their religion but it will be through the second death(the lake of fire).

The great error of yours and billions of others is believing in your religion.You are trying to enter into the kingdom of heaven by a form of mystic religion yet your mystic religion(imperception of Hades) is the very prison you are entrapped in.It is you nature and character(name)and that is why you are completely blind and will not be getting out in this age nor the next.The more you attempt to enter through your religion the more you are bound by it without knowing.

However the very Good news is you will be delivered through the second death of the lake of fire.The Hades you are in (imperception of religion) will be destroyed by the lake of fire(metaphor for something unknown) as will everything that is not Life.You are correct it is impossible for you to know this because you do not believe(trust) in or know Yahoshua.You believe in your religion on your God (you) and your religious doctrines which is bondage.

a reply to: Rex282

You are correct Rex in that I most certainly do believe in the Kingdom of Heaven being in the celestial third heaven. The reason I believe that is through the teachings of Jesus' Apostles and disciples.

2 Corinthians 12:2-4
(2) I knew a man in Christ above fourteen years ago, (whether in the body, I cannot tell; or whether out of the body, I cannot tell: God knoweth) such an one caught up to the third heaven.
(3) And I knew such a man, (whether in the body, or out of the body, I cannot tell: God knoweth)
(4) How that he was caught up into paradise,and heard unspeakable words, which it is not lawful for a man to utter.

In Greek to English translation the word paradise is used only three time in the KJV bible.

Jesus told Dismas (repenting thief), that he would be in paradise with Him, Jesus, the very same day they both would die.

Luk 23:42,43
(42) And he said unto Jesus, Lord, remember me when thou comest into thy kingdom.
(43)And Jesus said unto him, Verily I say unto thee, To day shalt thou be with me in paradise.

The third time paradise is used in the KJV bible --

Rev 2:7
(7) He that hath an ear, let him hear what the Spirit saith unto the churches; To him that overcometh will I give to eat of the tree of life, which is in the midst of the paradise of God.

When I read these verses in context they said to me that the repenting companion on the cross (Dismas) next to Jesus asked for mercy and was promised that he would accompany Jesus to paradise which is in the (celestial) third heaven. Why should it be in the celestial third heaven? Because that is where the celestial New Jerusalem is and the trees and water of life.

Revelation 22:1-3
(1) And he shewed me a pure river of water of life, clear as crystal, proceeding out of the throne of God and of the Lamb.
(2) In the midst of the street of it, and on either side of the river, was there the tree of life, which bare twelve manner of fruits, and yielded her fruit every month: and the leaves of the tree were for the healing of the nations.
(3) And there shall be no more curse: but the throne of God and of the Lamb shall be in it; and his servants shall serve him:

Now of course I could be wrong simply because I cannot physically prove the above scriptures and that same thing applies to you also. Neither of us can prove our theologies because we are in a theological discussion. But nevertheless of how we believe we both should respectfully disagree. You have my respect for your zeal in this matter even though the NT does not sustain your perspective. In other words Rex you are dead wrong according to the doctrine of Christ Jesus. In my opinion of course.

The malefactor(it does not say thief) on the cross did not repent nor confess his sin to Yahoshua .He merely stated to Yahoshua “remember me when you come into your kingdom”.There was no asking Jesus of forgiveness or repenting or confession of sins as your doctrine extrapolates.This is consistent with your theological perversion.You assume and read into words when it fits your doctrine when no assumption has been given.

Paul spoke of a man(it is assumed he means himself) that was caught up into the 3rd heaven.He said he did not know if he was “in” his body or it only happened in his mind.You are assuming Paul was in his body when he was caught up into the heavens but how could Paul enter your “heaven/paradise" celestial kingdom in his physical body when the doctrine you have extrapolated from the “your” bible(mostly from Paul) is the body is sin and sin cannot enter into heaven.

Paul himself declares he is the chief sinner of all mankind… which he was because he was the most religious.He even states he was born of the tribe of Benjamin made perfect in the Law ….which he knew was the epitome of foolishness and he counted is as # compared to the “revelation” of knowing Yahoshua.

Paul goes on to state his experience in the heavens was revelation(2 Corin 12:7).Paul experienced a revelation in his heavens like Simon Peter did yet he did not enter into his heavens.He said what he “heard” was unspeakable(undecipherable) words where Simon Peter said to Yahoshua “you are the son of the creator God the mashiach(the anointed….christ).Even thickheaded Simon Peter heard and understood the basics in his revealtion.

This is again an example of your extrapolation (more accurately you believing your teachers) and reading into the scripture a theology which is not it’s purpose.Yahoshua clearly stated the scriptures(what is written) purpose is to testify of Yahoshua.

Your last proof is the weakest of all.The book of Revelation states from it’s opening statement it is written in signs(symbols).None of the places and events are literal.When John describes “paradise” he says he heard or was shown (revealed) because he wasn’t in a “place”.

For example the lake of fire is not literally a “lake(body of water) of fire.Neither is paradise a literal place with a “pure”crystal river.John goes on to describe what he is shown of paradise..a river like pure crystal proceeds out of a throne and out of the Lamb…is that a literal throne(rhetorical) and a literal lamb that a pure crystal river is flowing out of.Then he states there is a street on the side of the river with a tree of life which produced 12 types of fruit every month,and its leaves heal the nations.... is this literal also(rhetorical).

It would be apparent to anyone thinking with reason these are not literal descriptions at all.They are vague metaphors for something else similar to the experience Paul had in a lower degree.Paul sated his revelation couldn’t be understood yet YOU(your teachers theologians) have it all figured out and this is the celestial kingdom of paradise/heaven somewhere out there where all the repentant confessors of sins go after they are judged worthy and go to live for eternity.

I understand why you believe that theology…because you want to and because it is your nature and character to do so.You have spent(wasted) you whole life chasing religion and preaching it…..you and your theology CAN”T be wrong!!..yet is.You can repeat your same old saw that it is your theology just as I have mine theology yet I have not presented one doctrine of theology only you have(many).You have a propensity to accuse and project on to others what you do thinking that is a valid argument yet it isn’t …it is invalid as your theology because it is faulty thinking with no truthful foundation.Everything you say of your theology is fraught with errors and lack of reason.

The fact is your theology is wrong and incorrect and unfortunately you will never know that in this life.You will go to the grave believing your false theology.You will live the rest of your life believing you are serving your God and that is the closest you will come to the truth because the truth is, your God is you and you have served him well because that is your nature and character.

The fact is your passive aggressive character is very weary and is a thin veil of nothingness and is very easy to see through.I will not agree to agree and I do not agree with you simply because there is nothing to agree with you with.You are very wrong in your theology and have proven to be a most disagreeable person.It is you that preach the bad news(the eternal punishment of hell or any hell)and elitism of the self chosen few and believe in fantasy realms of celestial heavens with all of it’s fantasy accoutrements.You have no problem with pissing on peoples shoe with your bad news and calling it GOOD!

I proclaim one thing.

The Good news of Yahoshua…the creator God is deliverance from Hades..the realm of death (the grave) and imperception(religion).

In the process I am denying the extreme and vile ignorance of the religious theology and those who believe in the doctrines of Christianity.I know you cannot understand that because ....I do not do it for you.You are blind and deaf and can never hear or see the truth in this life. I do it for those that will hear and because it is the truth.It is not theology.It is not religious doctrines of men.It is in one word…Yahoshua.









And he shewed me a pure river of water of life, clear as crystal, proceeding out of the throne of God and of the Lamb.
(2) In the midst of the street of it, and on either side of the river, was there the tree of life, which bare twelve manner of fruits, and yielded her fruit every month: and the leaves of the tree were for the healing of the nations

The malefactor(it does not say thief) on the cross did not repent nor confess his sin to Yahoshua .He merely stated to Yahoshua “remember me when you come into your kingdom”.There was no asking Jesus of forgiveness or repenting or confession of sins as your doctrine extrapolates.This is consistent with your theological perversion.You assume and read into words when it fits your doctrine when no assumption has been given. a reply to: Rex282

malefactor
noun mal·e·fac·tor ˈma-lə-ˌfak-tər
someone who is guilty of a crime or offense : a person whose behavior is wrong or evil

Luke 23:39-43
(39) And one of the malefactors (thieves) which were hanged railed on him, saying, If thou be Christ, save thyself and us.
(40) But the other answering rebuked him, saying, Dost not thou fear God, seeing thou art in the same condemnation? (41) And we indeed justly; for we receive the due reward of our deeds: but this man hath done nothing amiss.
(42) And he said unto Jesus, Lord, remember me when thou comest into thy kingdom.
(43) And Jesus said unto him, Verily I say unto thee, To day shalt thou be with me in paradise.

"And we indeed justly" is confession to all who heard it and Jesus most certainly did hear it.

Paul spoke of a man(it is assumed he means himself) that was caught up into the 3rd heaven.He said he did not know if he was “in” his body or it only happened in his mind.You are assuming Paul was in his body when he was caught up into the heavens but how could Paul enter your “heaven/paradise" celestial kingdom in his physical body when the doctrine you have extrapolated from the “your” bible(mostly from Paul) is the body is sin and sin cannot enter into heaven.

No Rex, I did not assume anything and it does not seem reasonable to me to assume that Paul is referencing himself as the man that he knew fourteen years ago had substance change and ascended to the third heaven. The only theological fact that could be assumed is that Paradise is in the third heaven. Note also the parenthesis which are not in the manuscripts, That is the translators own prerogative. You can take it out or leave it in whatever suits your understanding.
2 Corinthians 12:2-4
(2) I knew a man in Christ above fourteen years ago, (whether in the body, I cannot tell; or whether out of the body, I cannot tell: God knoweth) such an one caught up to the third heaven.
(3) And I knew such a man, (whether in the body, or out of the body, I cannot tell: God knoweth)
(4) How that he was caught up into paradise,and heard unspeakable words, which it is not lawful for a man to utter.

I invite you to read and digest the last two chapters of Isaiah and Revelation. I hope that will answer most of your doubts.

By the way Rex I also invite you to read -- Mat 27:38 Then were there two thieves crucified with him, one on the right hand, and another on the left.

Have a good day

originally posted by: ketsuko

originally posted by: honested3

originally posted by: coldkidc
If you're getting told to hate gay people and "sinners" then you are going to the wrong Christian churches.

Jesus specifically told us to love one another as he loves us.

That doesn't mean I have to agree with their lifestyle choice though - it's two separate issues.

It is one thing to say you love someone by showing support and acceptance for who they are as God made them.

It is another thing to say you love someone who you don't agree with and then turn a cold shoulder and say "I don't agree with their lifestyle" when in fact say you love only to appear holy amongst your own and deny human rights to me.

"Dear children, let us not love with words or speech but with actions and in truth." 1 John 3:18

You love only with words, but your actions do not reflect that, and your truth is just that, your version of truth which is to perpetuate the policies and beliefs that control the lives of other, such as denying gay marriage for so long. or the fact that I am not included as a participant deserving human rights in my lovely state of Idaho because I am considered an assault unto the Lord.

By that reasoning, I should allow my 4-year-old to do whatever he wants. It is loving and accepting of his lifestyle. In reality, I say no to him all the time because I know what's appropriate and right for him. If I didn't guide and moderate his behavior, he'd grow up into an awful, self-entitled human being.

So I must not love my own child.

Well that's where you're wrong, you think being transgender is the same as being a spoiled brat. And yes my parents thought they knew what was "appropriate and right for me" when they didn't. Gender dysphoria isn't the same as wanting to be something that isn't real, it isn't a delusion, it is a real condition.

a reply to: Seede

Thanks for the reply, I am readily aware of the points you bring up and the validity of the Bible, I too have had a lifetime of scriptural learnings. Even after all of that I still don't believe it is 100% God's word, and I still refuse to believe that God sends people to hell.

a reply to: visitedbythem

You're forgiven I guess? I think you should apologize to your wife, that must have been awful for her having to be married to someone who felt compelled to divorce her for being with another woman.

originally posted by: ketsuko
a reply to: honested3

God creates you with a choice.

What you choose is your decision. If you choose to turn against Him, then what should He do? If He makes you turn back, then you have no free will. If He lets you go your own way and turn from Him and lets you take the consequences of that choice, then you further condemn Him.

Either way, He will not win in your eyes.

Nice try I think? You're forgetting that even though we have free will, it contradicts God's being to assume he doesn't have the omniscient nature to know we will fail even with free will, it means God intentionally sent one to hell.